The historicity of the pre-trib rapture of the Church has always come directly from the Scriptures.

BABerean2

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There is no such thing as a post trib rapture of the Church.

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural.

Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest, based on the opinion of Tim LaHaye.

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998


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The reasons you have the problems you do is because you lack the studies in eschatology necessaray to understand why your views presently stand in error. Review the following portion of 2 Thess.2:1-8 and its translation history on. There is no such thing as a post trib rapture of the Church. Review the Scriptursl facts that clearly reveal it precedes the tribulation.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church

Mt.24:31:

And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in verses 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Verse 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Verse 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Verse 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7:
"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8:
"And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Verse 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar92
Since your training will not allow you to respond specifically to the substance of a post such as #107, I can only assume you have no response of your own. We all are painful aware that you can quote Mr. Ice and deflect any direct challenge to this false doctrine by touting your own perceived qualifications and denegrateing those that challenge you.
 
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To Quasar92. 2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Quasar92 simple question is the coming of our Lord and our gathering on the same day? Yes or no?

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Is the day of Christ the same day as the day in verse one? Yes or no?

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Is "that day" the same day as the days in verses 1& 2? Yes or no? I really don't care what Mr. Ice has to say he is not on this forum. What do you say? Just 3 yes or no's will suffice.
 
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Quasar92

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Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural.

Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest, based on the opinion of Tim LaHaye.

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998


.


FYI, Tim LaJHaye is 100% pre-trib

The Scriptures clearly delineate the chronological order of end time events which I have posted here numerous times before.

The Church is caught up to meet Jesus in the Sky, in 1 Thess.4:16-17. From where He will take them to our Father in heaven, according to Jn.14:2-3 and 28. Seen in heaven, where John is symbolically representing the church, in Rev.4:1-2, confirmed in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. Where they are seen in heaven for the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, according to Rev.19:7-8, while the tribulation is taking place on earth. From where Jesus returns to the earth with His Church in verse 14, confirming Zech.14:4-5.

There is no such thing as a pre-wrath/mid-trib or a post.trib rapture of the Church documented in the Scriptures anywhere.


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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Since your training will not allow you to respond specifically to the substance of a post such as #107, I can only assume you have no response of your own. We all are painful aware that you can quote Mr. Ice and deflect any direct challenge to this false doctrine by touting your own perceived qualifications and denegrateing those that challenge you.


FYI, attitudes such as the above are responsible for not responding to you at all. Is that clear enough?


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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To Quasar92. 2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Quasar92 simple question is the coming of our Lord and our gathering on the same day? Yes or no?

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Is the day of Christ the same day as the day in verse one? Yes or no?

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Is "that day" the same day as the days in verses 1& 2? Yes or no? I really don't care what Mr. Ice has to say he is not on this forum. What do you say? Just 3 yes or no's will suffice.


Response was given to you in my post #118. Where I gave you specific directions. FYI, Jesus return for the Church in 1 Thess.4:16 and being caught up to meet Him in the sky, in verse 17, will all take place in a single day.


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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All that stuff to fabricate something other than what Jesus said. How difficult are Jesus' words...

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days.... Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Talk about a bunch of fabricated perversion. The Parousia, the second coming, the gathering??? It's not difficult to understand when they are found together in multiple verses of prophrcy.

Pre-trib is a fabricated evil the church can do without. I's an intentional perversion of God's Word and many of these big shot big gun pre-tribbers know it. They just can't come clean just yet with their misled followers because the pre-trib manufacturing industry has made billions on the lie. They'll wait to apologize when the events prove them wrong.


meaningless opinion from Hal A Peno, a denomination of one. Let me see your proof that anything you find in my post #118 is false, with Scriptural support, or your views are the ones that are false.

You best keep in mind, you will be judged as you judge others! Capicfhe?!


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the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27]
. What is your scriptural basis for saying "the day of Christ " is a seven year period. Nothing in the text or context suggest that. Did you not accuse me of trying to make scripture say what I wanted? There is no tie to Daniel 9:27 stated or implied.
 
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BABerean2

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FYI, Tim LaJHaye is 100% pre-trib

The Scriptures clearly delineate the chronological order of end time events which I have posted here numerous times before.

The Church is caught up to meet Jesus in the Sky, in 1 Thess.4:16-17. From where He will take them to our Father in heaven, according to Jn.14:2-3 and 28. Seen in heaven, where John is symbolically representing the church, in Rev.4:1-2, confirmed in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. Where they are seen in heaven for the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, according to Rev.19:7-8, while the tribulation is taking place on earth. From where Jesus returns to the earth with His Church in verse 14, confirming Zech.14:4-5.

There is no such thing as a pre-wrath/mid-trib or a post.trib rapture of the Church documented in the Scriptures anywhere.


Quasar92


FYI

At least LaHaye had the intellectual honesty to admit that the Post-trib viewpoint, is the oldest viewpoint.

This is an undeniable fact.
I have a copy of his book "Rapture Under Attack", from which the quote in Post #121 appears.



.
 
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Quasar92

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. What is your scriptural basis for saying "the day of Christ " is a seven year period. Nothing in the text or context suggest that. Did you not accuse me of trying to make scripture say what I wanted? There is no tie to Daniel 9:27 stated or implied.


I referred you to my post #118 once before, to answer your questions. Where you will find under the sub-headings for 2 Thess.2:1-8 and its translation history, the precise timing of the rapture of the Church, followed immediately by the man of lawlessness, the Antichrist. Who is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27, a seven year week. Which is divided with the first 3.5 years of world peace, followed by the Great Tribulation in the final 3.5 years, which is the Day of the Lord. [I have never used the term, "Day of Christ," in this context, which the KJV does in 2 Thess.2:2] The Day of Christ is an entirely different event, when He comes for His Church, immediately preceding the tribulation, in 1 Thess.4:16-17.

See the following where you will find a listings of 86 verses pertaining to the Day of the Lord, beside Dan.9:27and Mt.24:15 and 21, Mk.13 and Lk.21.

86 Bible verses about Day Of The Lord


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Somebody said, and Quasar quoted,

The fabrications are too long for me to debunk every one right now. It's a very sad thing to see the endless fabrications of pre-trib. It's very troublesome that someone would mis-interpret these simple passages and pervert them into a pre-trib rapture and call it truth.
Look at what Quasar quoted and says it's a fact that Jesus taught pre-trib....

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4, 28."


John 14:2-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
____________________________________
V. 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
__________________________
It's so sad, and so simple, I really shouldn't have to explain!


FYI, Jn.14:1-4, 28 are the prophetic words of Jesus, pertaining to His return for His Church, from where He will return with them to the Father in heaven.

The rest of your bragadosio is meaningless opinion without a shred of Scriptural support.

The following is a four post link with the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, about the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church. Let me see you field a Scripturally based argument refuting any part of those teachings, or it is crystal clear, your views are the ones that are false in addition to calling Jesus and His apostles all liars.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...



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Quasar92

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FYI

At least LaHaye had the intellectual honesty to admit that the Post-trib viewpoint, is the oldest viewpoint.

This is an undeniable fact.
I have a copy of his book "Rapture Under Attack", from which the quote in Post #121 appears.



.


In addition to that, it was the RCC who held any other teachings pertaining to the Scripturally based teachings of Jesus Millennial reign on earth and the pre-trib rapture of the Church hostage, for more than 1,600 years, denying them, because of their teachings of Amillennialism!

Because post-trib was first, has no bearing whatever on which is the proper and correct teachings, clearly revealed by the Scriptures, it is the pre-trib position.


Quasar92
 
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jgr

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In addition to that, it was the RCC who held any other teachings pertaining to the Scripturally based teachings of Jesus Millennial reign on earth and the pre-trib rapture of the Church hostage, for more than 1,600 years, denying them, because of their teachings of Amillennialism!

Because post-trib was first, has no bearing whatever on which is the proper and correct teachings, clearly revealed by the Scriptures, it is the pre-trib position.


Quasar92
Post-trib being closest in chronological proximity to the NT, it is the most probable of accurately reflecting NT orthodoxy.

Error develops over time.
 
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Quasar92

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Post-trib being closest in chronological proximity to the NT, it is the most probable of accurately reflecting NT orthodoxy.

Error develops over time.


Let me see your Scripturally based argument refuting any part of the following four post link on the Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul. Failure to do so results in the views you hold to as being those that are false:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...


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