Catholic vs. Protestant Christianity

[amariselle]

You just claimed that purgatory is not biblical. That is a lie, as I have demonstrated.

You have not provided Biblical support for Purgatory.

You have done no research other than read anti Catholic propaganda.

Do you consider the Catechism of the Catholic Church to be "anti-Catholic propaganda"?

Read the article I posted then admit you were mistaken. That would be the honorable thing to do.

I have read such articles. However, you are not going to coerce me into accepting something as true for which there is zero Biblical evidence. That would not be the "honourable" thing to do.

 

[Thursday]

I have read such articles. However, you are not going to coerce me into accepting something as true for which there is zero Biblical evidence. That would not be the "honourable" thing to do.

You have not read such articles OR you would not be lying about the Church.

Please read this one at the very least and stop attacking Catholics with lies.

 

[amariselle]

You have not read such articles OR you would not be lying about the Church.

I can assure you I have. Also, as you are neither infallible nor omniscient, you have no basis for such a claim.

Please read this one at the very least and stop attacking Catholics with lies.

I have read it. If you're going to accuse me of lying, you'll need to back that assertion up.

Also, if you persist in flaming, your posts will be reported.

 

[Thursday]

I can assure you I have. Also, as you are neither infallible nor omniscient, you have no basis for such a claim.



I have read it. If you're going to accuse me of lying, you'll need to back that assertion up.

Also, if you persist in flaming, your posts will be reported.

If you have read it, and you can still claim that there is no biblical basis for purgatory, then you are not being honest.

 

[amariselle]

If you have read it, and you can still claim that there is no biblical basis for purgatory, then you are not being honest.

I did read it. It contained the same arguments I've read and listened to countless times.

 

[Thursday]

I did read it. It contained the same arguments I've read and listened to countless times.

Biblical arguments. So you aren't being honest.

An honest person would say I disagree with the biblical basis for purgatory, NOT, there is no biblical basis for purgatory.

 

[Albion]

If there were any evidence of Purgatory in Scripture, the church would have known it and believed in Purgatory from the start. She didn't.

 

[Albion]

An honest person would say I disagree with the biblical basis for purgatory, NOT, there is no biblical basis for purgatory.

Nonsense. All you are saying there is that an 'honest' person would reject the Bible's affirmation of the existence of a Purgatory if there were one--which claim makes no sense at all.

HOWEVER, if you want to say that there can be an honest disagreement as to whether certain passages in Scripture either affirm a Purgatory or do not do so, that's a different matter. But in fact, it is what we have here and yet there still is name-calling against people who simply disagree on the meaning of these passages in question.

 

[amariselle]

Biblical arguments. So you aren't being honest.

An honest person would say I disagree with the biblical basis for purgatory, NOT, there is no biblical basis for purgatory.

2 Maccabees is not "Biblical", and the other verses do not speak of anything remotely like the Catholic doctrine of "Purgatory."

Call me dishonest all you like. Personal insults/questioning my intellectual honesty does not change the truth. I have noticed though that attacks on a person's intellect and character are very common tactics used on this forum when someone dares to question (Biblically) official Catholic doctrine and tradition. I've been called all kinds of things for doing so. You're not the first person to resort to such methods, and I'm sure you won't be the last.

God bless.

 

[Albion]

2 Maccabees is not "Biblical", and the other verses do not speak of anything remotely like the Catholic doctrine of "Purgatory."

That's true, but Maccabees doesn't prove Purgatory anyway. I think that has to be made part of any discussion of this sort.

 

[kepha31]

BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR PURGATORY
​

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 – Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 – when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 – in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 – Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 – every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 – Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 – without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 – the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 – Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 – God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 – nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 – here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 – Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 – God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 – the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

II. Purification After Death By Fire
Heb. 12:29 – God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 – works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 – when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 – but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 – purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 – Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 – the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 – Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 – Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 – the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 – for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 – God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 – also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.

Purgatory is not a Catholic invention, it developed from Judaism. Quibbling about the Deuterocanonicals doesn't change Jewish history.

The Purpose Driven Life is one of the most popular Christian books in Evangelical circles. It says:

One day you will stand before God, and he will do an audit of your life, a final exam, before you enter eternity... he will ask us two crucial questions ...First, 'What did you do with my Son, Jesus Christ?' ...Second, 'What did you do with what I gave you' ... the second question will determine what you do in eternity...(pg. 34, my emphasis)

At the end of your life on earth you will be evaluated and rewarded according to how well you handled what God entrusted to you. That means everything you do...has eternal consequences...you will receive a promotion and be given greater responsibility in eternity ..." (pg. 45)​

- Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Life

This is not very far from the Catholic concept of Purgatory.

 

[Albion]

FWIW, you've thrown a bunch of verses onto the table and proclaimed them proofs of Purgatory without any analysis of them. I can see immediately that several don't speak of anything like a Purgatory at all, but I guess we're all expected to say "That settles it," huh?

 

[Thursday]

Nonsense. All you are saying there is that an 'honest' person would reject the Bible's affirmation of the existence of a Purgatory if there were one--which claim makes no sense at all.

That is not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that anyone who does any honest investigation will see that there is a biblical basis for purgatory. You may disagree with the conclusion, just as a Jehovah's Witness might disagree with the biblical basis for the Trinity. That doesn't mean that there is no biblical basis.

 

[Albion]

I'm saying that anyone who does any honest investigation will see that there is a biblical basis for purgatory.

Oh please. You're just voicing your own opinion there. There is only one church that believes in Purgatory; all the rest, including the Eastern Orthodox, do not. Consequently, it is quite obvious that not everyone who is honest just has to agree with you on this matter. What's more, the reasons--based on SCRIPTURE--have been explained here many times.

 

[Thursday]

Oh please. You're just voicing your own opinion there.

Now that's funny!

You have been shown the biblical basis for purgatory. You are free to agree or disagree with it. You are not free to lie and claim there is no biblical basis for purgatory.

 

[kepha31]

FWIW, you've thrown a bunch of verses onto the table and proclaimed them proofs of Purgatory without any analysis of them. I can see immediately that several don't speak of anything like a Purgatory at all, but I guess we're all expected to say "That settles it," huh?

I gave scriptures, followed by a brief exegesis of the text. A comprehensive analysis would take 20 pages.

The word "purgatory" is not in the Bible, just as the word "Trinity" or "Incarnation" is not either, but that doesn't mean the Bible doesn't teach them. There have been several assertions that purgatory is not in the Bible, and I have demonstrated several direct, indirect, or implied verses showing the reality of purgatory. Some are stronger than others. I have met the challenge. You replied with a temper tantrum.

 

[kepha31]

Now that's funny!

You have been shown the biblical basis for purgatory. You are free to agree or disagree with it. You are not free to lie and claim there is no biblical basis for purgatory.

It's not that they lie, it's how they have been brought up. You have to back 500 years to see how they overhauled God's justice and mercy. We have no business holding Protestants today accountable for the errors of yesterday.

 

[Albion]

I gave scriptures, followed by a brief exegesis of the text. A comprehensive analysis would take 20 pages.

Actually, that is not how the post reads. BUT, it's your choice whether to back up your points or to say it would be too much trouble.

 

[kepha31]

Actually, that is not how the post reads. BUT, it's your choice whether to back up your points or to say it would be too much trouble.

Assertions were made: purgatory is not in scripture.
I provided several.
You countered with nothing.
Now you say the onus is on me to provide a more comprehensive analysis to back up my points, taking 20 pages, that you wouldn't read anyway.
Following proper debate protocol, the onus is on you to disprove my points, not for me to further prove the points I already made.
But that would be too much trouble.

 

[Albion]

Assertions were made: purgatory is not in scripture.

That's right. And until some verse is turned up that shows the opposite, we are at a standstill.