Full Head on Soul Sleep is Unbiblical.

[Bible Highlighter]

Okay, all right, nothing special about being taken away in a fiery chariot. Happens to all of us.

But John 3 says that only the Son of Man ascended to Heaven. So either there is a contradiction in Scripture, or Elijah went to the heavens known as the sky. So this is not a case where he goes to Heaven (i.e. God's Kingdom). But besides that, we have the story of Lazarus and the Richman, and we have the dead saints crying under the alter of God for vengeance at the breaking of the fifth seal. Then there is Moses and Elijah being seen by Jesus, etc. All this testifies to the fact that "full head on soul sleep" is highly unlikely.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Re-read my post, and show me where I said Jesus did not cast out demons. Did you even read it?

You started talking about some kind of medical mumbo jumbo (Which suggested that these things that happen were not real). Legion was a whole bunch of demons that possessed one person. Physically that just does not work in our universe. They would have to be of a different dimension and or substance (like a spirit) to be able to pull that off. They have to be spirit in order to pass through the flesh of a human and then possess them.

Your claim doesn't provide any Scripture.
We both know why.There is no such thing as "the spirit realm".

Yet, that is exactly what we see when the richman dies in the Story of Lazarus and the Richman and with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. One has to do clever backflips with the text to make it say something else instead of just reading it and believing it.

The Scripture states these examples the OPPOSITE of your claim. It's the EYES of the people that are opened, so that they can see what is LITERALLY there!!

The spirit realm and or it's beings is hid from our eyes. It is not a contradiction. This is exactly what Peter seen when he was with Jesus at the Mount of Transfiguration. The Lord opened his eyes to see the spirit realm.

There isn't a single example of YOUR theory in Scripture.
And, your theory utterly fails the "reality test". There is no such thing as an immaterial entity!!

No offense, but it appears like you have not read any comics or watched any science fiction growing up. This is not really complicated. The spirit beings are physical in their own dimension but when they interact with our dimension they can either:

(a) Materialize so as to effect our physical universe in some way.
(b) Pass through physical things within our universe.​

This is pretty common knowledge (even amongst those who do not believe).
This has to be the logical deduction of what is true because like I said, Legion was a bunch of demons who could all live inside just one person.

Angels have spirit bodies. Paul says there is a natural body and a physical body. Spirits are generally immaterial to our universe because they can pass through us and we cannot see our own spirit and or touch it in any way. Doctors are not like.... "Hey guys! I found something strange here. I think I discovered some kind of invisible shell or covering inside a human being. I think it is his spirit." The Bible says we have spirits. Yet, no doctor has discovered some kind of invisible shell or unseen spirit like substance within us.


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[Dartman]

You started talking about some kind of medical mumbo jumbo (Which suggested that these things that happen were not real).

Actually, I first asked you a question, which you seem to be ignoring;
How big are demons?
Please answer the question.

Yet, that is exactly what we see when the richman dies in the Story of Lazarus and the Richman and with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration.

The PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus, and the VISION of the transfiguration. You are reduced to those two figurative texts, to try and contradict the VAST quantities of Scripture that contradicts your theory.

The spirit realm and or it's beings is hid from our eyes. It is not a contradiction. This is exactly what Peter seen when he was with Jesus at the Mount of Transfiguration. The Lord opened his eyes to see the spirit realm.

No offense, but it appears like you have not read any comics or watched any science fiction growing up.

AH HA!!! Now we know your primary "source material"!!
You see, I believe we should rely on the direct statements of Scripture, rather than comics and science fiction.
By the way, what do you think the "fiction" part of "science fiction" means?
And, notice, you don't have ANY "real world" evidence either .... because God's creation doesn't support your "spirit realm" fiction.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Actually, I first asked you a question, which you seem to be ignoring;
How big are demons?
Please answer the question.

Demons are merely fallen angels. Satan is described as a man who was once a good cherub (angel) (See Ezekiel 28:12-19, Isaiah 14:12-19). Satan transforms himself into an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). So satan is like other angels in appearance. The appearance of angels were as normal sized men to Abraham (Genesis 18:1-15). Two of these angels had to be big enough to grab Lot and his family out of Sodom and Gommorah (See Genesis 19:15-16).

So demons (fallen angels) would be of the size of men.

The PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus, and the VISION of the transfiguration.

No. Nowhere in Matthew 17:1-13, Mark 9:1-13, and Luke 9:28-36 does it speak of a vison. Matthew and Mark both say Jesus was transfigured (changed) and Luke says he was altered before Peter, James, and John. 2 Peter 1:16-18 mentions how Peter witnessed God the Father's voice upon the holy mountain when he was with Jesus at His transfiguration.

"And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount." (2 Peter 1:18).

You are reduced to those two figurative texts, to try and contradict the VAST quantities of Scripture that contradicts your theory.

There is no indication that these texts are figurative in any way. Also, I believe in a partial soul sleep (i.e. the wicked will possibly go through long periods of unconsciousness in addition to be conscious during other times in hell).

AH HA!!!

I don't listen to "Ah Ha" the music group anymore.
I have put worldly music, comics, and movies out of my life.

Now we know your primary "source material"!!

I believe God had used certain things in my old life to teach me certain things today (even though I do not indulge worldly things anymore). For example: Comics also taught me that good guys do good and bad guys do evil. This appears to be a foreign concept among Christianity today as whole. For many believe in Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved gospel.

You see, I believe we should rely on the direct statements of Scripture, rather than comics and science fiction.

Not everything in comics and science fiction is pure fiction. There are things that are true to an extent within them. Granted, I do not look to these things anymore, and I look to solely the Bible for my answers, but we know that a person can only be possessed if it is a spirit like being who can pass through physical matter.

By the way, what do you think the "fiction" part of "science fiction" means?
And, notice, you don't have ANY "real world" evidence either .... because God's creation doesn't support your "spirit realm" fiction.

I was not born under a rock. I know what words mean. What you are failing to see is that there are true things mentioned even within fictional stories. Not every single thing within a fictional story is a lie.

Anyways, again, do humans have spirits? Have doctors discovered this physical invisible thing called a spirit within us? No. So spirits are something that is only seen in the spirit world. The saints who were beheaded during the Tribulation cried out to God under the altar. These were dead saints. Yet, they were able to act as if they were alive still. Not surprising because angels do not have flesh and blood like us. They are spirit beings. For there is a natural body and a spiritual body.


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[Dartman]

Demons are merely fallen angels.

Scripture please?

Satan is described as a man who was once a good cherub (angel) (See Ezekiel 28:12-19, Isaiah 14:12-19).

Nope, those references are NOT about Satan.

Satan transforms himself into an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14).

Which is a "transformation" .... a CHANGE in appearance. And, please provide ANY Scripture that explains Satan is a demon.

Nowhere in Matthew 17:1-13, Mark 9:1-13, and Luke 9:28-36 does it speak of a vison.

Matt 17:9 And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead

Not everything in comics and science fiction is pure fiction.

The fact that you reference those sources to support your position illustrates how unsupportable your theory is.

Anyways, again, do humans have spirits? Have doctors discovered this physical invisible thing called a spirit within us?

Of course! The two BIBLICAL definitions of "spirit" are VERY obvious; "breath", and "mental disposition". Science/medicine are WELL aware of those two components of human biology.
The PAGAN definition of "spirit", this "immaterial entity" notion, is ONLY ridiculed in Scripture, for the PAGAN doctrine it is!!! Eccl 3 and Luke 24:39 are accurate dismissals of those superstitions!

Immaterial beings only exist in PAGAN superstitions, comics or science fiction.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Scripture please?

Already gave it to you.

Nope, those references are NOT about Satan.

Not true. Those verses do reference Lucifer.
Lucifer means "light bearer."
In 2 Corinthians 11:14 says Satan appears as an angel of light.
He is a bearer of light.
In fact, in the description of Lucifer says he used to be covered with many precious gemstones. Do you know what gemstones do? They carry light. They are like little light bearers.

Which is a "transformation" .... a CHANGE in appearance. And, please provide ANY Scripture that explains Satan is a demon.

The Bible is not mentioned in the Word of God and yet we know this what it means.

Matt 17:9 And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead

Again, Peter had heard God the Father's voice on the mountain and not in a vision like dream whereby his mind was swept away to another place. This was the kind of vision that was in real time based on their surroundings. They were still on the mountain. They were not in God's Kingdom or in some other place. They were still on the Mountain and were merely seeing things differently. They had a vision of what the spirit world in real time was like on the mountain. A vision is not something that is exclusively defined as a dream. We are talking about the KJV here. This is 1600's English. An older dictionary defines a vision as: a manifestation to the senses of something immaterial." Looking up the Etymology of the word "vision" says this: "something seen in the imagination or in the supernatural,"

The fact that you reference those sources to support your position illustrates how unsupportable your theory is.

I do not need comics to prove my case. The Bible is proof enough in itself. But comics can give a person the proper basics of imagination. I find people who have no imagination cannot even understand how the resurrection is possible. God creates miracles to happen. But they have no imagination to see how that is possible. People need to think of things logically in realms they are not familar with. For example: You have a hard time believing in the Trinity because it does not make sense to you. This is merely a lack of your imagination of the truth of the Trinity in how it is possible. This is one of the reasons why you cannot see it in the Scriptures or you fight against the idea of verses that talk about the Godhead.

Of course! The two BIBLICAL definitions of "spirit" are VERY obvious; "breath", and "mental disposition". Science/medicine are WELL aware of those two components of human biology.
The PAGAN definition of "spirit", this "immaterial entity" notion, is ONLY ridiculed in Scripture, for the PAGAN doctrine it is!!! Eccl 3 and Luke 24:39 are accurate dismissals of those superstitions!

Immaterial beings only exist in PAGAN superstitions, comics or science fiction.

Where is the spirit inside a human today that proves that the spirit is physical? Is it your beath? If so, is your spirit escaping you when you let out air?


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[Dartman]

Already gave it to you.

You have given me ZERO Scriptures that state "demons are fallen angels".... and you know it.

Not true. Those verses do reference Lucifer.
Lucifer means "light bearer."

It means "star, day star", and that means a powerful person.
The context states PLAINLY who is being discussed, and it is NOT Satan.

Which is a "transformation" .... a CHANGE in appearance. And, please provide ANY Scripture that explains Satan is a demon.

The Bible is not mentioned in the Word of God and yet we know this what it means.

Yes, it has become obvious, this is your "pat answer" when you have ZERO verses for support.

Matt 17:9 And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead

Again, Peter had heard God the Father's voice on the mountain and not in a vision like dream whereby his mind was swept away to another place.

All 3 heard God's voice in the vision. I didn't make up the fact that it was vision, Jesus states it plainly.
Matt 17:9 And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead
I realize this utterly destroys one of your "proofs", but are you going to believe Jesus ... or not?

I do not need comics to prove my case.

Then why did you bring them up?? It CERTAINLY brought your sources into the discussion, which doesn't help your case at all, but it was YOU that brought them up, I merely suspected your sources up to that point.

The Bible is proof enough in itself. But comics can give a person the proper basics of imagination. I find people who have no imagination cannot even understand how the resurrection is possible. God creates miracles to happen. But they have no imagination to see how that is possible. People need to think of things logically in realms they are not familar with.

The difference between the miracles described in the Scriptures (which I believe completely), and your theories is ..... the "described" part. You are asking me to believe in something only "described" in comic books, science fiction, and pagan teachings. In contrast, the Bible CLEARLY and REPEATEDLY describes a material world, where the dead are actually NOT ALIVE. AND, where beings ONLY BECOME invisible when the EYES of the beholder are affected! So, I am going to believe in the Biblical descriptions ... rather than the comic book "reality" you are asking us to accept.

For example: You have a hard time believing in the Trinity because it does not make sense to you. This is merely a lack of your imagination of the truth of the Trinity in how it is possible. This is one of the reasons why you cannot see it in the Scriptures or you fight against the idea of verses that talk about the Godhead.

Excellent example!! The trinity is a CLASSIC example of a theory that is NEVER ...... EVER ...... described, explained or preached in the Scriptures, while the Jewish Monotheistic God is CONSISTENTLY preached, explained and taught in Scriptures.

Of course! The two BIBLICAL definitions of "spirit" are VERY obvious; "breath", and "mental disposition". Science/medicine are WELL aware of those two components of human biology.
The PAGAN definition of "spirit", this "immaterial entity" notion, is ONLY ridiculed in Scripture, for the PAGAN doctrine it is!!! Eccl 3 and Luke 24:39 are accurate dismissals of those superstitions!

Immaterial beings only exist in PAGAN superstitions, comics or science fiction.

Where is the spirit inside a human today that proves that the spirit is physical? Is it your beath? If so, is your spirit escaping you when you let out air?...

Of course! And when I die, I will "breath my last". I will "give up my spirit";

Mark 15:37 And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last.
Luke 23:46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.
Acts 5:5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
Acts 5:10 And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

The two BIBLICAL definitions of "spirit" are VERY obvious; "breath", and "mental disposition". Science/medicine are WELL aware of those two components of human biology.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You have given me ZERO Scriptures that state "demons are fallen angels".... and you know it.
It means "star, day star", and that means a powerful person.
The context states PLAINLY who is being discussed, and it is NOT Satan.
Yes, it has become obvious, this is your "pat answer" when you have ZERO verses for support.
All 3 heard God's voice in the vision. I didn't make up the fact that it was vision, Jesus states it plainly.
Matt 17:9 And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead
I realize this utterly destroys one of your "proofs", but are you going to believe Jesus ... or not?

Then why did you bring them up?? It CERTAINLY brought your sources into the discussion, which doesn't help your case at all, but it was YOU that brought them up, I merely suspected your sources up to that point.

The difference between the miracles described in the Scriptures (which I believe completely), and your theories is ..... the "described" part. You are asking me to believe in something only "described" in comic books, science fiction, and pagan teachings. In contrast, the Bible CLEARLY and REPEATEDLY describes a material world, where the dead are actually NOT ALIVE. AND, where beings ONLY BECOME invisible when the EYES of the beholder are affected! So, I am going to believe in the Biblical descriptions ... rather than the comic book "reality" you are asking us to accept.
Excellent example!! The trinity is a CLASSIC example of a theory that is NEVER ...... EVER ...... described, explained or preached in the Scriptures, while the Jewish Monotheistic God is CONSISTENTLY preached, explained and taught in Scriptures.
Of course! And when I die, I will "breath my last". I will "give up my spirit";

Mark 15:37 And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last.
Luke 23:46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.
Acts 5:5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
Acts 5:10 And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

The two BIBLICAL definitions of "spirit" are VERY obvious; "breath", and "mental disposition". Science/medicine are WELL aware of those two components of human biology.

This has now become a great taste and less filling debate. You see what think is true, and I see the Scriptures as what they say as being true. The difference between us is I believe the harmony of Scripture as a whole is on my side. I already made my case. There is no point going over the same things over again that you will not accept.


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[Dartman]

This has now become a great taste and less filling debate. You see what think is true, and I see the Scriptures as what they say as being true. The difference between us is I believe the harmony of Scripture as a whole is on my side. I already made my case. There is no point going over the same things over again that you will not accept....

... wow.
The basic thrust of your post is, you give up.
The stunning element of your post is, your claim that the Scriptures are on your side, when you utterly failed to provide any that actually STATE your positions!
By contrast, I have provide MANY, that actually STATE my position.
I can see WHY you give up.

However, I must also add ..... the positions you accept ARE more "Popular" than mine!
This is also amazing to me, but certainly fits the ratio Jesus observed.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

... wow.
The basic thrust of your post is, you give up.
The stunning element of your post is, your claim that the Scriptures are on your side, when you utterly failed to provide any that actually STATE your positions!
By contrast, I have provide MANY, that actually STATE my position.
I can see WHY you give up.

However, I must also add ..... the positions you accept ARE more "Popular" than mine!
This is also amazing to me, but certainly fits the ratio Jesus observed.

No, it is called, "I have already presented my case and it will do you no good to repeat myself."
Besides, I doubt any more new Scriptural evidence would convince you if I dug a little more. You are already convinced in your own mind despite anything new that I may present. For me, the arguments in God's Word I gave are sufficient. There is no sense in beating a dead horse. If you don't like the answers I provided with Scripture, that is your choice. I have shown you what I believe Scripture says and you keep hitting the disagree button.

Anyways, may the Lord's love shine upon you today.


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[Dartman]

No, it is called, "I have already presented my case and it will do you no good to repeat myself."

But, "your case" didn't include ANY Scriptures that actually STATED your position.
All you provided was, verses that have been twisted over the last 1,700 years, to attempt to prove a position CONTRARY TO the ACTUAL statements of Scripture. I have then provided an understanding of those texts, which is harmonious with the plain, simple and direct statements of Scripture.

Besides, I doubt any more new Scriptural evidence would convince you if I dug a little more.

I GUARANTEE YOU, any "new evidence" that matches your PREVIOUS "evidence" will fail just as miserably!

You are already convinced in your own mind despite anything new that I may present.

Not if you have Scripture that actually states your position. We BOTH know, you don't.

For me, the arguments in God's Word I gave are sufficient. There is no sense in beating a dead horse. If you don't like the answers I provided with Scripture, that is your choice. I have shown you what I believe Scripture says and you keep hitting the disagree button.

No, I keep providing Scriptures that actually STATE my position. In reality, that's GOD hitting the "disagree" button.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But, "your case" didn't include ANY Scriptures that actually STATED your position.
All you provided was, verses that have been twisted over the last 1,700 years, to attempt to prove a position CONTRARY TO the ACTUAL statements of Scripture. I have then provided an understanding of those texts, which is harmonious with the plain, simple and direct statements of Scripture.
I GUARANTEE YOU, any "new evidence" that matches your PREVIOUS "evidence" will fail just as miserably!

Not if you have Scripture that actually states your position. We BOTH know, you don't.


No, I keep providing Scriptures that actually STATE my position. In reality, that's GOD hitting the "disagree" button.

Good day to you.
And may God bless you.


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[Dartman]

Good day to you.
And may God bless you.


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May God lead us both into greater truth.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

All 3 heard God's voice in the vision. I didn't make up the fact that it was vision, Jesus states it plainly.
Matt 17:9 And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead
I realize this utterly destroys one of your "proofs", but are you going to believe Jesus ... or not?

Vision: Greek horama, "spectacle" literally "that which is seen"

 

[Dartman]

Vision: Greek horama, "spectacle" literally "that which is seen"

Yes, usually a supernatural viewing of something not literally there;
Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Acts 7:31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,

Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

Acts 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Acts 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

Acts 10:17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

Acts 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

Acts 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

Acts 12:9 And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.

Acts 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

Acts 16:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavored to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

Acts 18:9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: