About those shootings.

[OldWiseGuy]

Should we get our undies in a wad over the spate of gangland shootings that are occurring in large cities like Chicago and Baltimore? Or should we stand back and let them solve this problem themselves through attrition?

"I don't mind shootings, as long as the right people get shot." -Dirty Harry.

 

[Earatha]

Eh.

If there wasn't collateral damage it would be less tragic. As it is, this is just a thing that happens.

 

[Wolfe]

So, you want to allow a civil war?

You went to school?

 

[“Paisios”]

Eh.

If there wasn't collateral damage it would be less tragic. As it is, this is just a thing that happens.

I disagree. God loves us all, sinners and saints, gangsters and innocent children. We may not have a practical answer, but it is ALWAYS a tragedy, even when it is "only" the gangsters who are killed. They are somebody's and Somebody's children, and even though fallen and corrupted, their lives are of value.

 

[Wolfe]

I disagree. God loves us all, sinners and saints, gangsters and innocent children. We may not have a practical answer, but it is ALWAYS a tragedy, even when it is "only" the gangsters who are killed. They are somebody's and Somebody's children, and even though fallen and corrupted, their lives are of value.

I myself was in a gang, not everyone in a gang are there on their own time.
And even if they are, not all of them are bad people.

It's not a very fun setting to be in, and once you're out, it never leaves you.

 

[4x4toy]

Maybe in trouble spots like Chicago we should have mandatory military school 6th or 7th grade for those who've had no guidance and still can't properly act, read or write . A last wake up call to learn a little discipline and order before facing a life of possible despair .. It may sound harsh but I could have used a dose myself probably

 

[Hank77]

I disagree. God loves us all, sinners and saints, gangsters and innocent children. We may not have a practical answer, but it is ALWAYS a tragedy, even when it is "only" the gangsters who are killed. They are somebody's and Somebody's children, and even though fallen and corrupted, their lives are of value.

I myself was in a gang, not everyone in a gang are there on their own time.
And even if they are, not all of them are bad people.

It's not a very fun setting to be in, and once you're out, it never leaves you.

Out of violent gangs come amazing Christians such as Nicki Cruz. I met a couple of other young ex-gang members who found Jesus through David Wilkerson's ministry, Teen Challenge.

 

[Wolfe]

Out of violent gangs come amazing Christians

Many gang members ARE Christians, the cross, many times isn't just a gang thing to have around you.

They legitimately believe in Christ as their savior, they just got in the wayyyyy wrong life.

But it seems these 2 above us believe they deserve to die.

 

[paul1149]

These people are trapped by a school system in the hands of self-serving "professionals", a political system the same way, a welfare system that has devastated the family, and an aberrant culture that reflects the hopelessness of all the above. The problem will not go away until we deal with the causes. Feeding it human bodies and lives will not satisfy it. Standing by will not solve it.

And neither will it be contained. The corrupt and corrupting politics and educational system are already well upon the national scene, and the disease is well advanced.

If you make inroads in the most brutal fields of battle, the inner cities, the contrasting results will be so persuasive that the vested interests - the concerned politicians and the caring educators - will be sent packing post-haste. And that is exactly why they fight real change so viciously.

You cannot walk away from this battle. You must confront it with truth.

 

[4x4toy]

 

[“Paisios”]

Many gang members ARE Christians, the cross, many times isn't just a gang thing to have around you.

They legitimately believe in Christ as their savior, they just got in the wayyyyy wrong life.

But it seems these 2 above us believe they deserve to die.

I posted above you, but I hope you are not referring to me. I believe and stated in my post that their lives had value, and they are loved by God (and note that when I said even when only gangsters were killed, I put the only in quotes to demonstrate my disagreement with that sentiment). Premature death and violence is always a tragedy.

 

[Wolfe]

I posted above you, but I hope you are not referring to me. I believe and stated in my post that their lives had value, and they are loved by God (and note that when I said even when only gangsters were killed, I put the only in quotes to demonstrate my disagreement with that sentiment). Premature death and violence is always a tragedy.

No no, I was talking to the OP and Eartha.

Who seem to think it'd be okay to just let them kill eachother, which is sick.

 

[Earatha]

Once a person has initiated the use of physical force then another is morally justified in their use of physical force. But let's put that aside for a moment.

We are social animals who live in large social groups. As such violence is an inevitability. By living in a large society we have a non-zero chance of experiencing violence. That is the trade off. It's sad, but that's how things work.

Are there systemic problems that lead to gang violence? Yup. Should we be addressing them? Yup. But I'm not going to be that upset when those who choose to engage in violence get violence acted upon them.

 

[Wolfe]

Once a person has initiated the use of physical force then another is morally justified in their use of physical force. But let's put that aside for a moment.

We are social animals who live in large social groups. As such violence is an inevitability. By living in a large society we have a non-zero chance of experiencing violence. That is the trade off. It's sad, but that's how things work.

Are there systemic problems that lead to gang violence? Yup. Should we be addressing them? Yup. But I'm not going to be that upset when those who choose to engage in violence get violence acted upon them.

Well that's the problem with your view.

You're effectively saying you don't care, these people die, without people trying to protect them.
And people like you, sick people, come along and say, That's what they get for being in a violent setting.
it's just what happens, we've got to accept it, we're animals, is a retarded way to look at it.

We're better than animals, standing down and just letting them die, or saying it's not as tragic if they die, rather than someone I know.

 

[Earatha]

Didn't I JUST say that we should work to reduce systemic problems that lead to violence?

But I'm not a pacifist and I'm not going to pretend to be. The initiation of physical violence is wrong. Full stop. But once it has been initiated the use of force to protect against another who used force is justified.

Our poor neighborhoods need help. And it is tragic that some turn to gangs. But, once they initiate the use of physical violence they have forfeited the right to be shocked when violence is used against them.

and yes, living means that there is a non-zero chance of bad things happening. I get into my car every day knowing there is a chance someone will sideswipe me and kill me. I accept that. And I'm being blunt about that here.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The only solution to the crime problem is the death of criminals, by their own hands or that of the state. There is no other option. It's not a hateful thing, just a fact. They must be destroyed just as ISIS must be destroyed, or they will destroy this country (what's left of it).

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So, you want to allow a civil war?

It might help.

You went to school?

I watched Ken Burns production of it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well that's the problem with your view.

You're effectively saying you don't care, these people die, without people trying to protect them.
And people like you, sick people, come along and say, That's what they get for being in a violent setting.
it's just what happens, we've got to accept it, we're animals, is a retarded way to look at it.

We're better than animals, standing down and just letting them die, or saying it's not as tragic if they die, rather than someone I know.

When a person obtains a gun for the purpose of committing a criminal act they forfeit their right to live.

 

[Earatha]

When a person obtains a gun for the purpose of committing a criminal act they forfeit their right to live.

This is where you and I draw the line in a slightly different place. The act of PURCHASING a weapon is not the point where they forfeit the right to be safe from violence. When they instigate the violent action is where they forfeit the right to be safe from physical violence. You can hoard as many guns as you want, even if you want to do violence. But the second you take action that's when your right stops. You can THINK whatever you want. It's when you DO things that the line is crossed.

And then there's the distinction between cops, or other agents of the state, and civilians who are the subject of violence. If you break into my house I have no obligation to try and get you to back off before I shoot you. The he state should only use lethal force to protect others from imminent harm.

 

[majj27]

The only solution to the crime problem is the death of criminals, by their own hands or that of the state. There is no other option. It's not a hateful thing, just a fact. They must be destroyed just as ISIS must be destroyed, or they will destroy this country (what's left of it).