Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

[PeaceB]

I provided a more concise version here:

Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

At least the following are false:
(1) "The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture"
(2) All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all:[15] yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.
(3) The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.

(1) and (2) are false because the Bible does not contain an inspired table contents. As God's Word is necessary for faith, then you need to know which books are the inspired word of God, and which books are not. That information is not contained in the Bible itself, which renders (1) and (2) false.

(3) is false because the Apostles themselves did not adhere to (3).

 

[-V-]

Scripture has been shown but you refuse to accept them.

And we have your say-so to prove it.

But I forgot that as a Sola Scripture person you only interpret things literally or with your own slant on it.

I don't recall claiming to be a "Sola Scriptura person". And I'd like to see your evidence that I "ONLY" interpret literally or with my own personal slant.

That is quite wrong

Quite true. Anyone can look it up.

 

[Goatee]

And we have your say-so to prove it.


I don't recall claiming to be a "Sola Scriptura person". And I'd like to see your evidence that I "ONLY" interpret literally or with my own personal slant.


Quite true. Anyone can look it up.

What one posts can reveal quite a bit my dear friend!

 

[Phil 1:21]

Cool. Show me where someone asked Mary to ask Jesus to do something about the lack of wine. I couldn't find it.

There aren't any. In order to get that out of the wedding at Cana one has to add something to scripture that isn't there. It's not a matter of interpretation. It's a matter of simply reading what's on the page.

 

[SeventyOne]

Interpretation my friend.

So, it's subjective to anything you want it to mean?

 

[Goatee]

So, it's subjective to anything you want it to mean?

It is for those who don't believe in Catholicism.

 

[Goatee]

There aren't any. In order to get that out of the wedding at Cana one has to add something to scripture that isn't there. It's not a matter of interpretation. It's a matter of simply reading what's on the page.

Not everything written in the Bible can be taken literally. There are hidden meanings, different turns and play on words. Remember too that Jesus spoke in parables!

A 3rd century Christian would in all probability understand scripture a lot more than we do today as it was written in a way that they could easily understand!

 

[SeventyOne]

It is for those who don't believe in Catholicism.

I believe the scriptures don't say anyone asked Mary to talk to Jesus about the wine. Her signal was actually given to us. It says, "when the wine ran out", then she went to Jesus. Chances are she was looking at her empty cup and just wanted more.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Not everything written in the Bible can be taken literally. There are hidden meanings, different turns and play on words. Remember too that Jesus spoke in parables!

I hear what you're saying. But this isn't a matter of interpretation, like discussing a parable. This is literally adding something to the text that does not exist. Also, the wedding at Cana isn't a parable. It's an account of a historical event like Jesus praying at Gethsemane or driving the money changers out of the temple.

Hey, I love to look for deeper meaning in scripture as well. But when we have to add in things that don't exist in order to make it go where we want, we're now letting the proverbial tail wag the dog.

 

[kepha31]

Do Catholics pray to Mary and the Saints?

Yes, and that has nothing to do with worshiping God. Your definition of "pray" is rather recent.

 

[amariselle]

Yes, and that has nothing to do with worshiping God. Your definition of "pray" is rather recent.

Whatever you say.

 

[kepha31]

(St. Louis De Montfort's Consecration)

I, (Name), a faithless sinner -
renew and ratify today in thy hands,
O Immaculate Mother,
the vows of my Baptism;
I renounce forever Satan,
his pomps and works;
and I give myself entirely to Jesus Christ,
the Incarnate Wisdom,
to carry my cross after Him
all the days of my life,
and to be more faihful to Him
than I have ever been before.

In the presence of all the heavenly court
I choose thee this day,
for my Mother and Mistress.

I deliver and consecrate to thee,
as thy slave, my body and soul,
my goods, both interior and exterior,
and even the value of all my good actions,
past, present and future;
leaving to thee the entire
and full right of disposing of me,
and all that belongs to me, without exception,
according to thy good pleasure,
for the greater glory of God,
in time and in eternity.

Amen.

O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy, Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners, we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart.

We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are.

To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls; to thee we give our homes, our families, our country.

We desire that all that is in us
and around us may belong to thee,
and may share in the benefits of thy motherly benediction.

And that this act of consecration
may be truly efficacious and lasting,
we renew this day at thy feet the promises of our Baptism and our first Holy Communion.

We pledge ourselves to profess courageously and at all times the truths of our holy Faith, and to live as befits Catholics who are duly submissive to all the directions of the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him.

We pledge ourselves to keep the commandments of God and His Church,
in particular to keep holy the Lord's Day.

We likewise pledge ourselves
to make the consoling practices of the Christian religion, and above all, Holy Communion, an integral part of our lives,
in so far as we shall be able so to do.

Finally, we promise thee, O glorious Mother of God and loving Mother of men, to devote ourselves whole-heartedlyto the service of thy blessed cult, in order to hasten and assure, through the sovereignty of thine Immaculate Heart, the coming of the kingdom of the Sacred Heart of thine adorable Son, in our own hearts and in those of all men, in our country and in all the world,
as in heaven, so on earth.

Amen.

O Immaculate Heart of Mary, Queen of Heaven and Earth, and tender Mother of men, in accordance with Thy ardent wish made known at Fatima,
I consecrate to Thy Immaculate Heart myself, my brethren,
my country and the whole human race.

Reign over us, Most Holy Mother of God,
and teach us how to make the Heart of Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ reign
and triumph in us even as It has reigned
and triumphed in Thee.

Reign over us, Most Blessed Virgin,
that we may be Thine in prosperity
and in adversity, in joy and in sorrow,
in health and in sickness,in life and in death.

O most compassionate Heart of Mary,
Queen of Heaven, watch over our minds and hearts and preserve them from the impurity which Thou didst lament so sorrowfully at Fatima. Assist us in imitating You in all things, especially purity. Help us to call down upon our country and upon the whole world the peace of God in justice and charity.

Therefore, Most Gracious Virgin and Mother, I hereby promise to imitate Thy virtues by the practice of a true Christian life without regard to human respect.

I resolve to receive Holy Communion regularly and to offer to Thee five decades of the Rosary each day,
together with my sacrifices, in the spirit of reparation and penance.

Amen.

Marian (Mary) Prayers - Prayers - Catholic Online

True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin is available online, for anyone to read and study, at no cost. That allows anyone to examine the context of the entire work. When we examine this particular work of the great French saint (1673-1716) closely, in response to the exaggerated accusations, we find many passages centering on Jesus, that the critics never seem to mention (or if so, only in passing). Catholic teaching is always balanced; it never goes to extremes.

First principle: Christ must be the ultimate end of all devotions

61. Jesus, our Saviour, true God and true man must be the ultimate end of all our other devotions; otherwise they would be false and misleading. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end of everything. “We labour,” says St. Paul, “only to make all men perfect in Jesus Christ.”

For in him alone dwells the entire fullness of the divinity and the complete fullness of grace, virtue and perfection. In him alone we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing; he is the only teacher from whom we must learn; the only Lord on whom we should depend; the only Head to whom we should be united and the only model that we should imitate. He is the only Physician that can heal us; the only Shepherd that can feed us; the only Way that can lead us; the only Truth that we can believe; the only Life that can animate us. He alone is everything to us and he alone can satisfy all our desires.

We are given no other name under heaven by which we can be saved. God has laid no other foundation for our salvation, perfection and glory than Jesus. Every edifice which is not built on that firm rock, is founded upon shifting sands and will certainly fall sooner or later. Every one of the faithful who is not united to him is like a branch broken from the stem of the vine. It falls and withers and is fit only to be burnt. If we live in Jesus and Jesus lives in us, we need not fear damnation. Neither angels in heaven nor men on earth, nor devils in hell, no creature whatever can harm us, for no creature can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Through him, with him and in him, we can do all things and render all honour and glory to the Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit; we can make ourselves perfect and be for our neighbour a fragrance of eternal life.

62. If then we are establishing sound devotion to our Blessed Lady, it is only in order to establish devotion to our Lord more perfectly, by providing a smooth but certain way of reaching Jesus Christ. If devotion to our Lady distracted us from our Lord, we would have to reject it as an illusion of the devil. But this is far from being the case. As I have already shown and will show again later on, this devotion is necessary, simply and solely because it is a way of reaching Jesus perfectly, loving him tenderly, and serving him faithfully.
An evangelical Protestant shouldn’t (and, I suspect, in most cases wouldn’t) have the slightest problem with what is written above about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ; in fact, in the portions that don’t directly mention Mary, most evangelical Protestants would probably assume it wasn’t even written by a Catholic.
We can’t cite one thing without taking into consideration the other. Critics of the Church will seize upon a few paragraphs, single sentences of fragments of sentences about Mary (and ignore material like that above) and falsely assume that this means that Jesus is being denigrated or “demoted” — when in fact this is not the case at all.
Was St. Louis de Montfort a Blasphemous Mariolater?
The bottom line is you can't take 17th century spiritual poetry and read it literally, but you don't care, you do it anyway.

 

[redleghunter]

At least the following are false:

Let's examine:

(1) "The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture"

2TI 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

GAL 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2TH 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2TI 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

(2) All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all:[15] yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.

2PE 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things: in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

PSA 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. 130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

1COR 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

(3) The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.

MATT. 22:29,31. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying.

EPH. 2:20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner-stone.

ACTS 28:25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Isaiah the prophet unto our fathers. 26 saying,‘Go to this people and say: “Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; And seeing you will see, and not perceive; 27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”’

ACTS 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 ‘After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; 17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the Lord who does all these things.’

(1) and (2) are false because the Bible does not contain an inspired table contents. As God's Word is necessary for faith, then you need to know which books are the inspired word of God, and which books are not. That information is not contained in the Bible itself, which renders (1) and (2) false.

(1) and (2) don't need a table of contents. Jesus taught the apostles and opened their mind to the Scriptures:

Luke 24: NKJV
25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
[...]
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

Before any canon was 'decided on' Christians got along quite well knowing even the NT as Scriptures. As demonstrated by none other than St. Irenaeus:

Against Heresies Book III. Chapter I.
We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

Seems this Doctor of the Church understood quite well.

(3) is false because the Apostles themselves did not adhere to (3).

Sure they did. I quoted above where James invokes TaNaKh before the ruling of the Jerusalem Council. (See Acts 15 again)

Frankly, as a Catholic you should be supporting (3) above. It's what every ecumenical council has declared their decisions are supported by Sacred Scriptures.

Here's a good example, the Council of Orange 529 AD:

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

Notice the Holy Scripture proof texts used in each canon. Therefore, #3 is not false but has been Church practice since the Council of Jerusalem.

Aside from councils and synods, we see the very practice of using Holy writ to prove truth claims in both the OT and NT. Given the multitude of verses which state "It is written" the below links should suffice:

1- Joshua through Romans: Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

2-Romans through Revelation: Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

3-Additional references Part 1: Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

4- Additional references Part 2: Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

5. Additional references Part 3: Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

 

[kepha31]

Yet, he never venerated her or prayed to her like the Catholic Church does.

Then you have to ignore Luke 1 where God was the first to honor Mary. You don't uphold Scripture, you follow human opinion of what it means. That's why you have to ignore Luke 1 and all that it implies.

 

[amariselle]

True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin is available online, for anyone to read and study, at no cost. That allows anyone to examine the context of the entire work. When we examine this particular work of the great French saint (1673-1716) closely, in response to the exaggerated accusations, we find many passages centering on Jesus, that the critics never seem to mention (or if so, only in passing). Catholic teaching is always balanced; it never goes to extremes.

First principle: Christ must be the ultimate end of all devotions

61. Jesus, our Saviour, true God and true man must be the ultimate end of all our other devotions; otherwise they would be false and misleading. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end of everything. “We labour,” says St. Paul, “only to make all men perfect in Jesus Christ.”

For in him alone dwells the entire fullness of the divinity and the complete fullness of grace, virtue and perfection. In him alone we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing; he is the only teacher from whom we must learn; the only Lord on whom we should depend; the only Head to whom we should be united and the only model that we should imitate. He is the only Physician that can heal us; the only Shepherd that can feed us; the only Way that can lead us; the only Truth that we can believe; the only Life that can animate us. He alone is everything to us and he alone can satisfy all our desires.

We are given no other name under heaven by which we can be saved. God has laid no other foundation for our salvation, perfection and glory than Jesus. Every edifice which is not built on that firm rock, is founded upon shifting sands and will certainly fall sooner or later. Every one of the faithful who is not united to him is like a branch broken from the stem of the vine. It falls and withers and is fit only to be burnt. If we live in Jesus and Jesus lives in us, we need not fear damnation. Neither angels in heaven nor men on earth, nor devils in hell, no creature whatever can harm us, for no creature can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Through him, with him and in him, we can do all things and render all honour and glory to the Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit; we can make ourselves perfect and be for our neighbour a fragrance of eternal life.

62. If then we are establishing sound devotion to our Blessed Lady, it is only in order to establish devotion to our Lord more perfectly, by providing a smooth but certain way of reaching Jesus Christ. If devotion to our Lady distracted us from our Lord, we would have to reject it as an illusion of the devil. But this is far from being the case. As I have already shown and will show again later on, this devotion is necessary, simply and solely because it is a way of reaching Jesus perfectly, loving him tenderly, and serving him faithfully.
An evangelical Protestant shouldn’t (and, I suspect, in most cases wouldn’t) have the slightest problem with what is written above about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ; in fact, in the portions that don’t directly mention Mary, most evangelical Protestants would probably assume it wasn’t even written by a Catholic.
We can’t cite one thing without taking into consideration the other. Critics of the Church will seize upon a few paragraphs, single sentences of fragments of sentences about Mary (and ignore material like that above) and falsely assume that this means that Jesus is being denigrated or “demoted” — when in fact this is not the case at all.
Was St. Louis de Montfort a Blasphemous Mariolater?
The bottom line is you can't take 17th century spiritual poetry and read it literally, but you don't care, you do it anyway.

As long as you realize that I quoted that prayer directly.

Do with it what you will. I'm not about to pray it that's for sure.

My body, heart and soul and all I own belongs to God alone. And I will praise Him alone.

God bless.

 

[amariselle]

Then you have to ignore Luke 1 where God was the first to honor Mary. You don't uphold Scripture, you follow human opinion of what it means. That's why you have to ignore Luke 1 and all that it implies.

God nowhere venerated her as the Catholic Church does, nor did Jesus even once say anything remotely similar to what the Catholic Church says about Mary, nor did any of the inspired Scripture writers.

But honestly, I've been over this too many times. This thread has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that there is absolutely no Biblical basis for praying to Mary.

 

[kepha31]

This is where you quite obviously misunderstand me. Anything "remotely Catholic" is not "automatically" wrong. You assume I have not done research, that I have not gone to Mass, that I have not taken the time to test all things by the word of God.

The Bible does not say test all things against a canon that would not exist for 4 centuries. Paul means to test all things against apostolic teaching.

This is, no doubt, the main reason why you believe that I am "attacking" and "bashing" the Catholic Church, even when I quote official sources and link directly to them.

Your sources have a spin that I exposed several pages back.

There are also former Catholics here that share what is officially taught by the Catholic Church and how is contradicts Scripture, they too back up what they are saying, and they too are accused of "bashing."

Ex-Catholics often become anti-Catholics, and use their former so called Catholicity to bolster their false expertise. Most ex-Catholics left the Church because they don't like her teachings on marriage and/or contraception, or when they were 13 years old and knew everything.

 

[kepha31]

Still waiting for a Biblical defense for praying to Mary.

I've posted several links giving the rationale. But demanding proof text for every devotion and practice has no biblical rationale whatsoever. It's not in the Bible. It's a man made tradition.

 

[amariselle]

The Bible does not say test all things against a canon that would not exist for 4 centuries. Paul means to test all things against apostolic teaching.

The Bible, in its entirety, is the divinely inspired word of God. Take it or leave it, it's up to you.

Your sources have a spin that I exposed several pages back.

If you had paid closer attention you would have no doubt noticed I actually used many official Catholic sources. (Such as the Catholic Catechism and the official Vatican website, for example)

Ex-Catholics often become anti-Catholics, and use their former so called Catholicity to bolster their false expertise. Most ex-Catholics left the Church because they don't like her teachings on marriage and/or contraception, or when they were 13 years old and knew everything.

I'm pretty sure that is certifiably false. But then, I've noticed you don't really want to listen to any of them, so that may be why you think so.

Anyway, as I said, this thread has served its purpose.

 

[amariselle]

I've posted several links giving the rationale. But demanding proof text for every devotion and practice has no biblical rationale whatsoever. It's not in the Bible. It's a man made tradition.

Thank you.