Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?

Status
Not open for further replies.

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
You have this exactly backwards.. To be accurate, you need to know the usage at its origin.
As example; the Flintstones cartoon theme uses the following phrase, "we'll have a gay old time.." Now, which definition of 'gay' is accurate, the one the writer intended or it's meaning in the current common vernacular?

You can understand the context and not need to remain with the usage of antiquated language.

If you go around telling people that they are praying when they ask a family member or friend for something, you will obviously generate confusion and get strange looks. No one will agree with you, this is not 16th century England.

Similarly, if you go around telling people you're "gay" when you really mean happy, no one is going to understand you actually meant "happy."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fireinfolding
Upvote 0

FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.
Supporter
Jun 13, 2016
5,074
5,940
Nashville TN
✟631,933.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
You can understand the context and not need to remain with the usage of antiquated language.

If you go around telling people that they are praying when they ask a family member or friend for something, you will obviously generate confusion and get strange looks. No one will agree with you, this is not 16th century England.

Similarly, if you go around telling people you're "gay" when you really mean happy, no one is going to understand you actually meant "happy."
You still do not understand. The original usage is the accurate one. Many of these prayers were written centuries ago and the vernacular when written is what they mean. Not what modern culture changes it to. example; every time the Flintstones theme plays, 'gay' still means happy and nothing else - regardless of what our culture thinks. "pray" as written into the ancient prayers still means exactly what it meant when written.
 
Upvote 0

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,285
2,868
59
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟142,274.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I don't want to go on the cart! I'm happy! I think I'll go for a walk.

tumblr_lpqx459FNj1qaaqmq.png

Morning humor...

Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0

FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.
Supporter
Jun 13, 2016
5,074
5,940
Nashville TN
✟631,933.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Upvote 0

frettr00

Finding peace where I am
Aug 10, 2004
1,348
285
41
✟38,259.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
This should explain why Catholics are justified in praying to saints. Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers I've personally had an experience with the Holy Spirit as a result of praying the rosary so I know it's ok because God himself has confirmed it to me.
 
Upvote 0

S.O.J.I.A.

Dynamic UNO
Nov 6, 2016
4,280
2,641
Michigan
✟98,714.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Nowhere in the Bible does it say taking heroin is bad.

when the practice of praying to saints comes under heavy scrutiny this is usually what proponents of the practice fall back on.

"well, scripture doesn't say I can't do it."
 
Upvote 0

OrthodoxLady1994

Active Member
Aug 2, 2017
40
51
30
Midwest
✟17,508.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Constitution
The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God.

The Bible nowhere encourages or even MENTIONS believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers.

Some believe that those who are glorified in Heaven have MORE "direct access" to God than we do.

Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God on our behalf, it is MORE effective than us praying to God directly.

This concept is blatantly un-Biblical.

Hebrews 4:16
tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "approach the throne of grace with confidence."

My dear sisters and brothers, what is your opinion/view on this?

View attachment 204090

My friend, I believe that you misunderstand this doctrine, as many who don't believe it do. Please allow me to explain. First of all, asking a saint to pray for you or with you for someone else is no different than asking another living Christian to do so, something which is featured and advised in scripture more times than I can count.

Secondly, Christ conquered the grave, death has no power over us anymore. Those who die knowing the Lord are now alive with Him. They, therefore, remain part of his body the Church and therefore we can still ask for them to pray with and for us as we would anyone else.

This is what the belief is really about. We don't pray to them. We treat them as any other member of the Body of Christ. Is that really so counter-scriptural?
 
Upvote 0

Korean-American Christian

raised Presbyterian. member of the Nazarene Church
Feb 21, 2017
2,157
2,996
USA
✟17,856.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Green
My friend, I believe that you misunderstand this doctrine, as many who don't believe it do. Please allow me to explain. First of all, asking a saint to pray for you or with you for someone else is no different than asking another living Christian to do so, something which is featured and advised in scripture more times than I can count.

Secondly, Christ conquered the grave, death has no power over us anymore. Those who die knowing the Lord are now alive with Him. They, therefore, remain part of his body the Church and therefore we can still ask for them to pray with and for us as we would anyone else.

This is what the belief is really about. We don't pray to them. We treat them as any other member of the Body of Christ. Is that really so counter-scriptural?

My dear sister, thank you so much for your explanation

May our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always

May God our Father bless you
 
Upvote 0

AvilaSurfer

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 14, 2015
9,736
4,784
NO
✟928,396.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
when the practice of praying to saints comes under heavy scrutiny this is usually what proponents of the practice fall back on.

"well, scripture doesn't say I can't do it."
Not true.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Are they living or gone from this life?

Are you asking them for things that come from God alone?
Yes they are living, as seen in Revelation. No, you're asking them to go to God.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The angel Gabriel prayed to Mary?!

Yeah, that part about asking her to pray for us sinners at the hour of our death? Not Biblical. Is she omniscient? Omnipresent?
The angel Gabriel INDEED prayed to Mary. He asked her to bear the son of God.
Regarding your last judgement, are you saying you only pray Biblical sayings? You don't say "Oh God, take away this illness from me?" Cuz if you did, you're doing the same thing. Just sayin'
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I think you need to go read his epistles. He even said that someone should be handed over to Satan.
I don't believe that's a judgement. It's an opinion.
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
The angel Gabriel INDEED prayed to Mary. He asked her to bear the son of God.
Regarding your last judgement, are you saying you only pray Biblical sayings? You don't say "Oh God, take away this illness from me?" Cuz if you did, you're doing the same thing. Just sayin'

Actually, the angel Gabriel did not "pray" to Mary. Angels serve and glorify God alone. Nor did the angel Gabriel "ask" Mary to do anything, he came as a messenger from God and conveyed God's will, to which Mary submitted reverently and humbly.

To even suggest that an angel would ever pray to a mere human being is far more than just a little unBiblical.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Phil 1:21
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
I don't believe that's a judgement. It's an opinion.

Really? Paul saying that a person needs to be "handed over to Satan" is not a judgement?

Okay.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
How does this teach praying to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH)? As said, this is not what is shown, nor even that they knew the express contents of these prayers before hand, and rather than this offering of prayers being some continuous postal service, they are offered in memorial before the judgments of the last days (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; f. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 6:15; 24:7; Num. 5:15)
So you disagree with our faith, the original Christian beliefs. I get that. Many fell away before Jesus was even crucified. Many more left afterward. That doesn't make the teaching and belief wrong, in any way. It only makes your interpretation different than what was meant and taught. How do we know? The disciples of the apostles who wrote the NT tell us.
For when "He maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. (Psalms 9:12; cf. Genesis 4:10) and before judgment God brings forth testimony of the warrant for it, which includes the cry of those martyred souls under the altar in Rv. 6:9, and with odors representing prayer, akin to Leviticus 6:15, "burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the Lord." (Leviticus 6:15)

That Catholics must resort to trying to wrest support for PTCBIH from such texts is itself an argument against this practice being Scriptural, including by the NT church, the record of which examples zero of it.
But it is scriptural. It's your interpretation that's not. Remember, we have more than only Scripture, we have Sacred Tradition, which provides context to what the Bible teaches.
Do you really think the Spirit of God would neglect to provide manifest examples of PTCBIH by believers despite this being a most common practice in Catholicism, while being faithful to provide approx. 200 prayers in Scripture, and record only pagans making supplication to unseen beings in Heaven, and only provide instruction to address God in Heaven?
No, I believe he did provide many examples, which you discount.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Another false analogy, for while the actual fashion of clothes is not shown in Scripture (except for OT priests), that we are to cover our nakedness is shown, and nakedness after the fall never is sanctioned, but is only shown negatively. Likewise that we are to pray to Heaven is shown, but praying to created beings in Heaven never is and is only shown negatively.
So you don't get the point, which is obvious. Your criticisms are your opinion. Which is like anuses. Everyone has one and everyone else's stinks. Mine is the word of God in the Sacred Tradition, as Paul told us to follow.
 
Upvote 0

Fireinfolding

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2006
27,263
4,084
The South
✟114,061.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Really? Paul saying that a person needs to be "handed over to Satan" is not a judgement?

Okay.
In 1 Cr 5:3 the word judged there (proceeding it) means opinion even as secular definition show an opinion as a judgment but here this is followed up with doing that.

Seems similar to Acts 13:10 in the sense he issues a judgment which come of the Holy Ghost and then the hand of the Lord falls upon the guy and he was made blind for a season, and blindness is also shown in the context of judgment.
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
So you don't get the point, which is obvious. Your criticisms are your opinion. Which is like anuses. Everyone has one and everyone else's stinks. Mine is the word of God in the Sacred Tradition, as Paul told us to follow.

Well, that's certainly not at all prideful...
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
In 1 Cr 5:3 the word judged there (proceeding it) means opinion even as secular definition show an opinion as a judgment but here this is followed up with doing that.

Seems similar to Acts 13:10 in the sense he issues a judgment which come of the Holy Ghost and then the hand of the Lord falls upon the guy and he was made blind for a season, and blindness is also shown in the context of judgment.

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. - 1 Corinthians 5:1-5
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Fireinfolding
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Status
Not open for further replies.