LDS Were parts of the Bible deleted by the great and abominable church?

[dzheremi]

dzheremi says:


So those who died before Christ, their spirits went to this spirit prison. Jesus visited them after his death and preached to them, those that believed were brought out of the prison to the highest heaven. Those that did not believe stayed in the the prison or were they transferred to a permanent hell? Is this what you believe?

I don't know that there's any tradition that is this explicit in the details of what happened there, or even the specifics of 'there'. Again, I feel that the 'prison' in question is metaphorical, based on a certain reading of scripture.

What of all those that died after Jesus? Do they go straight to heaven if they believe and straight to hell if they do not believe?

That's us, right now. And, no, there is no 'fast pass' either way. Some churches have philosophized or set up certain systems by which at least something can be explained about what happens in the meantime, after death but before the second coming (e.g., the Roman Catholic purgatory or the Eastern Orthodox toll houses -- though these are not equivalent to each other), but my own Church has not done so. For us, it is enough to stick to what we say in the Creed: "We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come." That resurrection has not happened yet, but will happen in the future at the second coming of Christ.

 

[Peter1000]

I don't know that there's any tradition that is this explicit in the details of what happened there, or even the specifics of 'there'. Again, I feel that the 'prison' in question is metaphorical, based on a certain reading of scripture.



That's us, right now. And, no, there is no 'fast pass' either way. Some churches have philosophized or set up certain systems by which at least something can be explained about what happens in the meantime, after death but before the second coming (e.g., the Roman Catholic purgatory or the Eastern Orthodox toll houses -- though these are not equivalent to each other), but my own Church has not done so. For us, it is enough to stick to what we say in the Creed: "We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come." That resurrection has not happened yet, but will happen in the future at the second coming of Christ.

There is a gap between death and the resurrection.

Some Christian religions say the spirit sleeps with the body in the grave and when the resurrection takes place both the body and the spirit will come forth together in a new resurrected body. So the gap is filled with sleep.

Some Christian religions say the spirit leaves the body and goes back to God who gave it without any details. No details about does the spirit and the body come together in the resurrection. The gap is filled with ????

Some Christian religions say the spirit leaves the body and goes back to live with God. At the resurrection, the spirit is reunited with the body and comes forth as a new resurrected body. The gap is filled with living with God

I could find a lot more belief system among the Christian churches.

Some Christian churches have no answer to what happens between death and the resurrection.

LDS belief: We believe the spirit is an eternal entity. We believe at the beginning of our mortal life, God put our spirit in our mortal bodies and it is this spirit that gives life to our body. The spirit and body make up the soul of man.

At death this spirit is quickened (or it leaves the body) and our flesh and bone body is layed in the grave to await the resurrrection.

Our spirit, being eternal, continues to live, and goes into what we call the 'spirit world'. The world of spirits is a temporary abode between death and the resurrection. It is divided into 2 parts.
Part 1) Paradise, where the spirits of men who did good in the sight of God in their earthly habitation. This is where Jesus took the thief on the cross that confessed and was blessed by Jesus. Jesus told him that today thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Part 2) Prison, where the spirits of men who did evil in the sight of God in their earthly habitation. This is where the rich man went after he died, remember Lazarus went to paradise and was in the arms of Abraham. This is where those who are talked about in 1 Peter 3:19 were.

Either paradise or prison, we are only there until the resurrection. So at the time of Christ's resurrection, not only was he resurrected but many were resurrected from paradise and realized the reuniting of their spirit and body, and came forth with new resurrected bodies, and now live in the presence of Heavenly Father.
Those not resurrected are still in the spirit world in either paradise or prison. We believe Jesus did preach to the spirits in prison and made it possible for those who chose to believe and repent to cross over from the prison to paradise. The second resurrection will happen at his second coming, at that time your spirit and my spirit will have the opportunity to reunite with our flesh body and come forth as a new resurrected man. After the millenium the last resurrection will happen.

Life after death and before the resurrection is an interesting study.

 

[dzheremi]

Hmm. Thank you for that explanation of the LDS belief, Peter. We're already far, far away from the OP at this point, but as far as off-topic conversations are concerned, I think it's nice to be able to learn something in them.

While I have not been able to find any kind of definitive statements about what happens between death and resurrection in my tradition, we do have the belief -- confirmed in Phil 3:20-21 -- that at the resurrection we will arise in new, spiritual bodies (i.e., we will not be resurrected in our old bodies, suffering the maladies and malformations that they do). But it is a very general idea, as there is not detail in the scriptures or the fathers about what exactly that will be like. But you can find this belief in various places. Here is a very stirring homily give during the funeral for the martyrs of Alexandria by HG Bishop Moussa (HG's part begins at 3:29; before that is the funeral prayer said by Fr. Tadros Yacoub):

We can learn here that the soul of the righteous departs from the body* for paradise, to return to the body at the resurrection, where we will be resurrected in a glorified spiritual body (the word HG uses in Arabic is nouraniya, which I think is more literally translated as 'luminous', though he also does say 'spiritual').

You can certainly draw whatever parallels you wish between this belief and the LDS belief, as you'd be better equipped to see them than I would. But this is what we find preached in our churches, as received from our fathers. There is not a lot of talk about what it's doing in paradise, what that's like, how long it is there, etc.

(*- This is also found in our hymns and prayers, including also those about Christ's own death and resurrection, as in the Syrian Fraction, where it is prayed that "His soul parted from His body, while His divinity in no way parted either from His soul or from His body")

 

[Peter1000]

dzheremi says:

We can learn here that the soul of the righteous departs from the body* for paradise, to return to the body at the resurrection, where we will be resurrected in a glorified spiritual body (the word HG uses in Arabic is nouraniya, which I think is more literally translated as 'luminous', though he also does say 'spiritual').

I'm not sure how it happened, but in this case we can agree.

We think because of Jesus' resurrection experience with his apostles that we will have a spiritual/luminous body that is made also of flesh and bone.
See Luke 24:36-43. Not like our old destructable bodies, but new resurrected and perfect bodies, but none the less, the structure is both spiritual and flesh and bone just like Jesus's body after his resurrection.

It is also interesting that verse 37 would make reference to 'a spirit'. Apparently the apostles believed that Jesus was 'a spirit' only. So in their minds 'a spirit' can be in 1 place at 1 time, rather than being scattered endlessly around the universe.

This happened 1 other time, when the apostles were in the ship and Jesus came to them walking on the sea. The apostles thought they were seeing
'a spirit'. Again, they thought a spirit was a real entity and was in 1 place at 1 time, rather than some essence that was spread thoughout the universe.

Just an interesting side note.

 

[Peter1000]

Okay.

I am a southern baptist christian. Most southern baptists believe in a biblical doctrine called eternal security, also known as once-saved-always-saved. Now, on the Christian Forums it's easy to get into theological arguments with people about this doctrine, so I don't want to spend too long talking about it, but I'll answer every question as best I can.

Now, I happen to believe the Bible says eternal security is real, but I also believe you don't have to believe in this doctrine either in order to be saved. Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.

We are saved by our faith in Jesus, not by our faithfulness. We are not saved by good works, but many Christians make the mistake of believing that we maintain salvation by doing good works. Those words you quoted in 1 Corinthians 13:13 "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." I looked up the word 'charity' in Strong's Concordance and the original greek word is Agape, which refers to a selfless and freely generous type of love. Love is the word more commonly translated for this verse.

But where does the Bible say once-saved is always-saved? Jesus Himself said it in John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." Paul said nothing can possibly separate us from God in Romans 8:37-39. He also says in Ephesians 4:30 that the Holy Spirit is a seal (or a promise) who ensures every believer is going to heaven.

So why do we have Jesus's instructions in Matthew 5, or Matthew 6 and 7. This famous Sermon on the Mount is instruction for saved people who wish to grow in their spiritual walk, to simplify it. But why should we listen to instruction if we are safe and secure? Well, if you are saved you will go to heaven, but you will be poor if you refused to live as God instructed you. Also, Romans 6 implies that if you are still in sin, you might have reason to believe that you were never saved in the first place.

This is as much as I can say with what little time I have, but if you have any other questions about eternal security, you can feel free to ask. If not, I'll try to explain baptism next, and hopefully I'll explain it better next time. Hope you are having a great day.

You have done a nice job explaining once saved always saved or eternal security. However, you use scriptures such as Acts 2:47, Romans 8:24, Philippians 4:3, and Ephesians 2:8. These were all given to us by 1 apostle and that was Paul.
Paul made his point and Christians focus entirely on his 'by grace are you saved' doctrine.

So Paul represents what I will say is one phase of being saved and it is the past tense portion of being saved, again represented by the scriptures above.

Jesus OTOH did not say things like Paul, and Christians have a tendancy to ignore the words of Jesus, because they like the easy way to heaven that they think Paul preaches.

Jesus approaches salvation in 2 phases. One is the past tense doctrine of you are 'saved' by believing in me. But he also uses a future tense also. Both tenses are critical to salvation. For instance, the future tense is represented by scriptures such as Matthew 10:22, John 15:5-6, Revelation 3:4-5,
Revelation 22:19.

In Matthew 10:22, Jesus teaches us that those who endure to the end will be saved. This is a future tense, and means that in order to be saved we have to endure to the end. What does it mean to endure in order to be saved, if we are already saved (past tense).

In John 15:5-6 Jesus teaches us that he is the vine and those saved are the branches. But then he says that if a branch (one saved) does not produce (future tense), it will be lopped off and burned. It also says the saved that do produce will be purged in order to produce more. Purge means that you will have to prove yourself in difficult times and endure the purge in order to forstall the lopping off and burning. It is not easy to be a disciple of Jesus.

In Revelation 3:4-5 Jesus is talking to the 'saved' in Sardis, and he says that they that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Again, these were 'saved' in the past tense (whose names were already written in the book of life), but Jesus taught them the future tense of salvation, that they must endure to the end and overcome this evil world, and that their names could be blotted out of the book of life.

Peter also teaches a poignant lesson in 2 Peter 2:20-22, which none of us want to experience.

There are many scriptures that I could quote for both past tense 'saved' and future tense 'saved'. So what we have to be careful in doing is focusing on one or the other tenses and forgetting the other tense. We cannot focus just on scriptures that prove future tense 'saved', and ignore scriptures that prove past tense 'saved', and vice versa. Christians have a tendency to focus on just past tense 'saved' and LDS has a tendancy to focus on future tense 'saved'. They both must fit nicely together to give us the true nature of what it takes to be 'saved' in the KOG.

 

[Stancet]

You have done a nice job explaining once saved always saved or eternal security. However, you use scriptures such as Acts 2:47, Romans 8:24, Philippians 4:3, and Ephesians 2:8. These were all given to us by 1 apostle and that was Paul.
Paul made his point and Christians focus entirely on his 'by grace are you saved' doctrine.

So Paul represents what I will say is one phase of being saved and it is the past tense portion of being saved, again represented by the scriptures above.

Jesus OTOH did not say things like Paul, and Christians have a tendancy to ignore the words of Jesus, because they like the easy way to heaven that they think Paul preaches.

Jesus approaches salvation in 2 phases. One is the past tense doctrine of you are 'saved' by believing in me. But he also uses a future tense also. Both tenses are critical to salvation. For instance, the future tense is represented by scriptures such as Matthew 10:22, John 15:5-6, Revelation 3:4-5,
Revelation 22:19.

In Matthew 10:22, Jesus teaches us that those who endure to the end will be saved. This is a future tense, and means that in order to be saved we have to endure to the end. What does it mean to endure in order to be saved, if we are already saved (past tense).

In John 15:5-6 Jesus teaches us that he is the vine and those saved are the branches. But then he says that if a branch (one saved) does not produce (future tense), it will be lopped off and burned. It also says the saved that do produce will be purged in order to produce more. Purge means that you will have to prove yourself in difficult times and endure the purge in order to forstall the lopping off and burning. It is not easy to be a disciple of Jesus.

In Revelation 3:4-5 Jesus is talking to the 'saved' in Sardis, and he says that they that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Again, these were 'saved' in the past tense (whose names were already written in the book of life), but Jesus taught them the future tense of salvation, that they must endure to the end and overcome this evil world, and that their names could be blotted out of the book of life.

Peter also teaches a poignant lesson in 2 Peter 2:20-22, which none of us want to experience.

There are many scriptures that I could quote for both past tense 'saved' and future tense 'saved'. So what we have to be careful in doing is focusing on one or the other tenses and forgetting the other tense. We cannot focus just on scriptures that prove future tense 'saved', and ignore scriptures that prove past tense 'saved', and vice versa. Christians have a tendency to focus on just past tense 'saved' and LDS has a tendancy to focus on future tense 'saved'. They both must fit nicely together to give us the true nature of what it takes to be 'saved' in the KOG.

Well, I don't speak for all Christians. There are many denominations that don't believe in once-saved-always-saved. But, I happen to believe that all books of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, were inspired by the Holy Spirit and there is no error between them.

But what you're saying is true. We have been saved the moment we believed in Jesus. We are being saved as we continue to live in obedience and faith. And we will be saved once Jesus comes to take us home. All three tenses of the word salvation are present in the Bible and each is supposed to represent a different phase of development in the Christian's life.

I can understand also why it sounds like Christians pay more attention to Paul than to Jesus. But remember, Jesus did not write His own gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did that, and each of them was under the direction of the same Holy Spirit that Paul was. I believe that only to mean that there is no conflict between what Paul teaches and what Jesus teaches.

 

[Peter1000]

Well, I don't speak for all Christians. There are many denominations that don't believe in once-saved-always-saved. But, I happen to believe that all books of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, were inspired by the Holy Spirit and there is no error between them.

But what you're saying is true. We have been saved the moment we believed in Jesus. We are being saved as we continue to live in obedience and faith. And we will be saved once Jesus comes to take us home. All three tenses of the word salvation are present in the Bible and each is supposed to represent a different phase of development in the Christian's life.

I can understand also why it sounds like Christians pay more attention to Paul than to Jesus. But remember, Jesus did not write His own gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did that, and each of them was under the direction of the same Holy Spirit that Paul was. I believe that only to mean that there is no conflict between what Paul teaches and what Jesus teaches.

There is absolutely no conflict between Jesus and Paul, except for persons who focus on Paul to the exlusion of the words of Jesus. For instance:
Paul does talk about 'good works' as much as he talks about 'grace'.
See
1 Timothy 6:17-19
17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

This scripture tends toward the future tense 'saved', which most Christians don't feel Paul is a part of, but he does agree with Jesus.

Notice the words: store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

So to me, Jesus and Paul agree, both understand that salvation is in 2 phases, past and future, and their words agree.

Thanks for the conversation. Would you like to finish our discussion about baptism?

 

[Stancet]

There is absolutely no conflict between Jesus and Paul, except for persons who focus on Paul to the exlusion of the words of Jesus. For instance:
Paul does talk about 'good works' as much as he talks about 'grace'.
See
1 Timothy 6:17-19
17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

This scripture tends toward the future tense 'saved', which most Christians don't feel Paul is a part of, but he does agree with Jesus.

Notice the words: store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

So to me, Jesus and Paul agree, both understand that salvation is in 2 phases, past and future, and their words agree.

Thanks for the conversation. Would you like to finish our discussion about baptism?

We could talk about baptism, that would be fine. I don't believe that you have to be baptized to go to heaven but I'd like to hear your side first. (Sorry, it is getting kind of late for make lengthy posts).

 

[Peter1000]

We could talk about baptism, that would be fine. I don't believe that you have to be baptized to go to heaven but I'd like to hear your side first. (Sorry, it is getting kind of late for make lengthy posts).

I will give you the reasons I feel baptism is necessary for salvation soon, but I have to ask 2 questions:

1) have you been baptized?

2) Is that a picture of you? This is a father-knows-best kind of face and very disarming. lf it is you it matches your style of conversation, being very kind and cordial. So if that is you, you have a nice advantage over most men our age. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Stancet]

I will give you the reasons I feel baptism is necessary for salvation soon, but I have to ask 2 questions:

1) have you been baptized?

2) Is that a picture of you? This is a father-knows-best kind of face and very disarming. lf it is you it matches your style of conversation, being very kind and cordial. So if that is you, you have a nice advantage over most men our age. Thanks for the discussion.

1) Yes I have. I was baptized on April 15, 2015 by my senior pastor, the wisest man I ever met in my life. I have been continuing in my Christian walk ever since.

2) Thank you, that is a very charming compliment, but no. This is a picture of the Christian author and apologist, C.S. Lewis. And I know the two of us are probably similar in some regard, but he died years ago, and I am younger than he was at the time of this photograph.

I appreciate your consideration and honesty as well. I know I don't know everything, and I don't always write so clearly, but I thank you that you look past all that and write your honest analysis and reply with a fair understanding of scripture.

 

[Peter1000]

1) Yes I have. I was baptized on April 15, 2015 by my senior pastor, the wisest man I ever met in my life. I have been continuing in my Christian walk ever since.

2) Thank you, that is a very charming compliment, but no. This is a picture of the Christian author and apologist, C.S. Lewis. And I know the two of us are probably similar in some regard, but he died years ago, and I am younger than he was at the time of this photograph.

I appreciate your consideration and honesty as well. I know I don't know everything, and I don't always write so clearly, but I thank you that you look past all that and write your honest analysis and reply with a fair understanding of scripture.

Thank you too, for the kind words.

So a little over a year ago, you decided to be baptized. Would you mind letting me know why you finally decided to be baptized? I do not mean to pry, so if that is out of bounds, just say something like 'that is private'.

In LDS, we baptize children when they turn 8 years old because that is a year that Jesus told our prophet that we should baptize member's children. Of course if you join the church when you are older, we baptize people at the age they become a member.

I was baptized when I was 8. I knew by then who Jesus was and that he died for me and I knew about the HS at that point and I knew he was a blessing in my life to keep me on the strait and narrow path. So when I was baptized by full immersion, I walked up out of that water and I felt like I had left all my sins in that watery grave and that I was perfectly clean.
I knew that I would sin again, and that if I did, I had the opportunity to repent and that Jesus would forgive me, and as I grew up, I would sin less, but would not be perfect, which meant that I would continue to repent and continue to have faith that through the grace of Jesus my sins would be forgiven.

I now know that baptism is part of the 'past tense saved'. I needed to do that ordinance to be saved and become a branch of the true vine. But as we move into the 'future tense saved', my baptism would save me only if I learned how to keep the commandments, receive nurishment from Jesus, the true vine, and use that nurishment to produce much fruit for his kingdom.
If I was not willing to keep the commandments, be nurished and to produce much fruit, I would be lopped off and burned as stuble, and my baptism would not be able to save me.

Past tense saved process:
So HS witness that Jesus is the Christ.
We repent and confess that Jesus is the Christ by the HS.
We are baptized (and for LDS we recieve the constant companionship of the HS by the laying on of hands).

Future tense saved process:
We become branches of the true vine.
We learn what Jesus expects of us (learn commandments and keep them and this is the nurishment that Jesus offers us through the vine).
We continue to repent when we find ourselves off the straight and narrow path, knowing that through the grace of Jesus our sins will be forgiven.
We use the nourishment from the vine to produce much good fruit for the KOG.
We endure to the end.

We now receive our new resurrected bodies and our crown of gold, being perfect in the sight of God and furnished with all good works (2 Timothy 3:17). Then finally by the grace of Jesus we are allowed to enter into the KOG, and are granted to sit with Jesus in his throne (Revelation 3:21) for ever and ever, worlds without end.

Being saved is a process and baptism is part of that process, but it is worth it, because the wonders of God that await us have never even entered into the mind of man. You will be glad you were baptized.

 

[Stancet]

Thank you too, for the kind words.

So a little over a year ago, you decided to be baptized. Would you mind letting me know why you finally decided to be baptized? I do not mean to pry, so if that is out of bounds, just say something like 'that is private'.

In LDS, we baptize children when they turn 8 years old because that is a year that Jesus told our prophet that we should baptize member's children. Of course if you join the church when you are older, we baptize people at the age they become a member.

I was baptized when I was 8. I knew by then who Jesus was and that he died for me and I knew about the HS at that point and I knew he was a blessing in my life to keep me on the strait and narrow path. So when I was baptized by full immersion, I walked up out of that water and I felt like I had left all my sins in that watery grave and that I was perfectly clean.
I knew that I would sin again, and that if I did, I had the opportunity to repent and that Jesus would forgive me, and as I grew up, I would sin less, but would not be perfect, which meant that I would continue to repent and continue to have faith that through the grace of Jesus my sins would be forgiven.

I now know that baptism is part of the 'past tense saved'. I needed to do that ordinance to be saved and become a branch of the true vine. But as we move into the 'future tense saved', my baptism would save me only if I learned how to keep the commandments, receive nurishment from Jesus, the true vine, and use that nurishment to produce much fruit for his kingdom.
If I was not willing to keep the commandments, be nurished and to produce much fruit, I would be lopped off and burned as stuble, and my baptism would not be able to save me.

Past tense saved process:
So HS witness that Jesus is the Christ.
We repent and confess that Jesus is the Christ by the HS.
We are baptized (and for LDS we recieve the constant companionship of the HS by the laying on of hands).

Future tense saved process:
We become branches of the true vine.
We learn what Jesus expects of us (learn commandments and keep them and this is the nurishment that Jesus offers us through the vine).
We continue to repent when we find ourselves off the straight and narrow path, knowing that through the grace of Jesus our sins will be forgiven.
We use the nourishment from the vine to produce much good fruit for the KOG.
We endure to the end.

We now receive our new resurrected bodies and our crown of gold, being perfect in the sight of God and furnished with all good works (2 Timothy 3:17). Then finally by the grace of Jesus we are allowed to enter into the KOG, and are granted to sit with Jesus in his throne (Revelation 3:21) for ever and ever, worlds without end.

Being saved is a process and baptism is part of that process, but it is worth it, because the wonders of God that await us have never even entered into the mind of man. You will be gland you were baptized.

It's okay. I don't mind telling you my own baptism experience.

I was first baptized in the ocean by immersion in my pre-teen years. Looking back, I know I hadn't properly given my life to Jesus because as the years passed I fell into habitual sins that I couldn't escape from. Not that I'm a rebellious person by nature, but I went to church and did not have the spiritual mentors I wanted and needed.

Then in 2014 I moved with my family to Tennessee where we were hoping for a better climate and better politics. The Lord brought me to an amazing church with a rival pastor named Mickey, the first Southern Baptist Church I ever attended. I was reluctant to live in Tennessee but after months and months I fell in love with my church, my pastor and my congregation. I had always considered myself a Christian but after I felt God telling me to clean up my sinful life, my pastor started a series on sin. During one of his most fiery sermons I was all in and gave up my habitual sins.

This was all very close to Resurrection Day. After my pastor started a new series about communion and baptism I began to wonder if my first baptism was for real or not. Then supernaturally (I kid you not) I felt the Holy Spirit's voice clearly telling me I needed to be baptized. So I prayed for Jesus to be my Lord and Savior and meant it like never before, right before I go baptized by Mickey himself. For about a week I was in the happiest mood I ever recalled being in; having complete confidence that I was where God wanted me and doing exactly what He wanted. I made a commitment that all I wanted to do for the rest of my life was whatever He told me, and I have made a commitment to grow in my knowledge and faith ever since.

Now concerning baptism, I will explain my own beliefs plainly since you have been very courteous to share openly without telling me I'm automatically wrong. Southern Baptists (despite their name) do not believe baptism is necessary for salvation for a number of reasons. The thief on the cross was not baptized, nor was Zacchaeus the tax collector when Jesus promised they were both saved. Also, we believe salvation is through faith alone and not works. Baptism is a work, or a ritual, and it is necessary only as an act of obedience to show other people your commitment to live for Jesus.

We believe that since Jesus is God, and God is all-knowing, Jesus saves us from our sins while He already knows every future sin we are bound to make. So people don't become unsaved once they accept Jesus, but the helmet of salvation in Ephesians 6 refers to salvation in the present tense, where we live our lives growing stronger and resisting sin because Jesus has give us power to do so. Then once we get to heaven to be with Jesus, salvation becomes complete and we are freed from sin, and we receive our rewards and are forever with Him.

Anyways, I don't know if there was more you wanted to talk about. I still don't know much about the mormon faith but I appreciate how much you've taught me about your beliefs. Thank you.

 

[Jane_Doe]

It's okay. I don't mind telling you my own baptism experience.

I was first baptized in the ocean by immersion in my pre-teen years. Looking back, I know I hadn't properly given my life to Jesus because as the years passed I fell into habitual sins that I couldn't escape from. Not that I'm a rebellious person by nature, but I went to church and did not have the spiritual mentors I wanted and needed.

Then in 2014 I moved with my family to Tennessee where we were hoping for a better climate and better politics. The Lord brought me to an amazing church with a rival pastor named Mickey, the first Southern Baptist Church I ever attended. I was reluctant to live in Tennessee but after months and months I fell in love with my church, my pastor and my congregation. I had always considered myself a Christian but after I felt God telling me to clean up my sinful life, my pastor started a series on sin. During one of his most fiery sermons I was all in and gave up my habitual sins.

This was all very close to Resurrection Day. After my pastor started a new series about communion and baptism I began to wonder if my first baptism was for real or not. Then supernaturally (I kid you not) I felt the Holy Spirit's voice clearly telling me I needed to be baptized. So I prayed for Jesus to be my Lord and Savior and meant it like never before, right before I go baptized by Mickey himself. For about a week I was in the happiest mood I ever recalled being in; having complete confidence that I was where God wanted me and doing exactly what He wanted. I made a commitment that all I wanted to do for the rest of my life was whatever He told me, and I have made a commitment to grow in my knowledge and faith ever since.

Now concerning baptism, I will explain my own beliefs plainly since you have been very courteous to share openly without telling me I'm automatically wrong. Southern Baptists (despite their name) do not believe baptism is necessary for salvation for a number of reasons. The thief on the cross was not baptized, nor was Zacchaeus the tax collector when Jesus promised they were both saved. Also, we believe salvation is through faith alone and not works. Baptism is a work, or a ritual, and it is necessary only as an act of obedience to show other people your commitment to live for Jesus.

We believe that since Jesus is God, and God is all-knowing, Jesus saves us from our sins while He already knows every future sin we are bound to make. So people don't become unsaved once they accept Jesus, but the helmet of salvation in Ephesians 6 refers to salvation in the present tense, where we live our lives growing stronger and resisting sin because Jesus has give us power to do so. Then once we get to heaven to be with Jesus, salvation becomes complete and we are freed from sin, and we receive our rewards and are forever with Him.

Anyways, I don't know if there was more you wanted to talk about. I still don't know much about the mormon faith but I appreciate how much you've taught me about your beliefs. Thank you.

Stance, thank you for your kind word and great presence here.

 

[Peter1000]

It's okay. I don't mind telling you my own baptism experience.

I was first baptized in the ocean by immersion in my pre-teen years. Looking back, I know I hadn't properly given my life to Jesus because as the years passed I fell into habitual sins that I couldn't escape from. Not that I'm a rebellious person by nature, but I went to church and did not have the spiritual mentors I wanted and needed.

Then in 2014 I moved with my family to Tennessee where we were hoping for a better climate and better politics. The Lord brought me to an amazing church with a rival pastor named Mickey, the first Southern Baptist Church I ever attended. I was reluctant to live in Tennessee but after months and months I fell in love with my church, my pastor and my congregation. I had always considered myself a Christian but after I felt God telling me to clean up my sinful life, my pastor started a series on sin. During one of his most fiery sermons I was all in and gave up my habitual sins.

This was all very close to Resurrection Day. After my pastor started a new series about communion and baptism I began to wonder if my first baptism was for real or not. Then supernaturally (I kid you not) I felt the Holy Spirit's voice clearly telling me I needed to be baptized. So I prayed for Jesus to be my Lord and Savior and meant it like never before, right before I go baptized by Mickey himself. For about a week I was in the happiest mood I ever recalled being in; having complete confidence that I was where God wanted me and doing exactly what He wanted. I made a commitment that all I wanted to do for the rest of my life was whatever He told me, and I have made a commitment to grow in my knowledge and faith ever since.

Now concerning baptism, I will explain my own beliefs plainly since you have been very courteous to share openly without telling me I'm automatically wrong. Southern Baptists (despite their name) do not believe baptism is necessary for salvation for a number of reasons. The thief on the cross was not baptized, nor was Zacchaeus the tax collector when Jesus promised they were both saved. Also, we believe salvation is through faith alone and not works. Baptism is a work, or a ritual, and it is necessary only as an act of obedience to show other people your commitment to live for Jesus.

We believe that since Jesus is God, and God is all-knowing, Jesus saves us from our sins while He already knows every future sin we are bound to make. So people don't become unsaved once they accept Jesus, but the helmet of salvation in Ephesians 6 refers to salvation in the present tense, where we live our lives growing stronger and resisting sin because Jesus has give us power to do so. Then once we get to heaven to be with Jesus, salvation becomes complete and we are freed from sin, and we receive our rewards and are forever with Him.

Anyways, I don't know if there was more you wanted to talk about. I still don't know much about the mormon faith but I appreciate how much you've taught me about your beliefs. Thank you.

My beliefs are what the Mormon church teaches.

Thank you for a good story. I am glad that you have found your path to God and you are happy with your life. It does feel good to be on the Lords side.

Now that we have given each other our stories, and how we believe things, I would like to see if we can reconcile our different salvation beliefs, would you like me to show you what I mean by that?

 

[Stancet]

My beliefs are what the Mormon church teaches.

Thank you for a good story. I am glad that you have found your path to God and you are happy with your life. It does feel good to be on the Lords side.

Now that we have given each other our stories, and how we believe things, I would like to see if we can reconcile our different salvation beliefs, would you like me to show you what I mean by that?

That depends. I don't want to start talking about eternal security and baptism all over again, but if you wanted to start a different area of discussion that would be awesome.

 

[Peter1000]

That depends. I don't want to start talking about eternal security and baptism all over again, but if you wanted to start a different area of discussion that would be awesome.

Are you not curious why our salvation beliefs can come from the same bible but be quite different in the salvation solution.

For instance, a person is taught that baptism is not necessary for salvation, and so they grow up with the belief that its not necessary to be baptized. So this person was never baptized.

The question is, what happens to that person if it is necessary to be baptized in order to enter into heaven? LDS has a solution for this, but what do you think would happen to this person?

 

[Stancet]

Are you not curious why our salvation beliefs can come from the same bible but be quite different in the salvation solution.

For instance, a person is taught that baptism is not necessary for salvation, and so they grow up with the belief that its not necessary to be baptized. So this person was never baptized.

The question is, what happens to that person if it is necessary to be baptized in order to enter into heaven? LDS has a solution for this, but what do you think would happen to this person?

Speaking hypothetically, if salvation was necessary for baptism and a person did everything to become a Christian except get baptized then that person would not go to heaven. Certain denominations believe the thief on the cross was the one exception to the rule, but that's one reason I subscribe to the theory that baptism isn't necessary.

You seem to be suggesting that LDS has a solution to the predicament and I'm curious to know what you mean by that?

 

[Peter1000]

Speaking hypothetically, if salvation was necessary for baptism and a person did everything to become a Christian except get baptized then that person would not go to heaven. Certain denominations believe the thief on the cross was the one exception to the rule, but that's one reason I subscribe to the theory that baptism isn't necessary.

You seem to be suggesting that LDS has a solution to the predicament and I'm curious to know what you mean by that?

I have been presented with the thief on the cross situation as one of the main reasons people believe that baptism is not necessary. So let's look at the thief on the cross.

How much do we know about the thief except he was a thief? Nothing, so it is difficult to make a decision if he is baptized or not with the information we have. But lets look at the religious atmosphere at that time, maybe that will help us to answer this question.

Is it possible that he was caught up in the John the Baptist event and was baptized? Look what the scriptures say about that event:
Matthew 3:5
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan.
Mark 1:5
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Luke 3:21
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened.

As you can see a great number of people went out to John and were baptized. I would believe that most of those people would have been of the middle to lower class. This thief on the cross was probably lower class and I would say had a very good chance of being baptized by John.

Could he have been baptized and then resorted to thievery in order to feed his family? Who knows why he committed theft, but I believe he had a better than good chance of being baptized by John.

Respond to this thought and then I will follow with what happens if he had not been baptized. There is a solution for him.

 

[Rescued One]

Speaking hypothetically, if salvation was necessary for baptism and a person did everything to become a Christian except get baptized then that person would not go to heaven. Certain denominations believe the thief on the cross was the one exception to the rule, but that's one reason I subscribe to the theory that baptism isn't necessary.

You seem to be suggesting that LDS has a solution to the predicament and I'm curious to know what you mean by that?

They do endless proxy baptisms for the dead.

Joseph Smith's struggle with his brother Alvin's death led eventually to the introduction of baptisms for the dead. This new ordinance was embraced by saints in Nauvoo who did the first genealogical and family history research in Church history.
Glad Tidings: The History of Baptisms for the Dead

 

[Rescued One]

Doctrine and Covenants 128
11 Now the great and grand secret of the whole matter, and the summum bonum of the whole subject that is lying before us, consists in obtaining the powers of the Holy Priesthood. For him to whom these keys are given there is no difficulty in obtaining a knowledge of facts in relation to the salvation of the children of men, both as well for the dead as for the living.

12 Herein is glory and honor, and immortality and eternal life—The ordinance of baptism by water, to be immersed therein in order to answer to the likeness of the dead, that one principle might accord with the other; to be immersed in the water and come forth out of the water is in the likeness of the resurrection of the dead in coming forth out of their graves; hence, this ordinance was instituted to form a relationship with the ordinance of baptism for the dead, being in likeness of the dead.

13 Consequently, the baptismal font was instituted as a similitude of the grave, and was commanded to be in a place underneath where the living are wont to assemble, to show forth the living and the dead, and that all things may have their likeness, and that they may accord one with another—that which is earthly conforming to that which is heavenly, as Paul hath declared, 1 Corinthians 15:46, 47, and 48:

14 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as are the records on the earth in relation to your dead, which are truly made out, so also are the records in heaven. This, therefore, is the sealing and binding power, and, in one sense of the word, the keys of the kingdom, which consist in the key of knowledge.

15 And now, my dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their salvation is necessary and essential to our salvation, as Paul says concerning the fathers—that they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect.

16 And now, in relation to the baptism for the dead, I will give you another quotation of Paul, 1 Corinthians 15:29: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

17 And again, in connection with this quotation I will give you a quotation from one of the prophets, who had his eye fixed on the restoration of the priesthood, the glories to be revealed in the last days, and in an especial manner this most glorious of all subjects belonging to the everlasting gospel, namely, the baptism for the dead; for Malachi says, last chapter, verses 5th and 6th: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

18 I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.
Doctrine and Covenants 128

They also seal wives to husbands and children to parents so that the dead will be able to have eternal families. Those who don't submit the names of their ancestors won't have eternal life/exaltation.