My YEC Evidence Challenge

[HitchSlap]

Do you seriously believe all that stuff?

No?

Mind if I don't either?

Then you understand why we might reject your confabulations.

 

[AV1611VET]

Then you understand why we might reject your confabulations.

Oh, absolutely.

I expect it.

In fact, you said why.

You called it a 'confabulation.'

I would reject it too if I thought that.

 

[HitchSlap]

Oh, absolutely.

I expect it.

In fact, you said why.

You called it a 'confabulation.'

I would reject it too if I thought that.

Well there you go, then.

 

[Aman777]

Before God and after God is not something that exists. He is the beginning and the end. The Alpha and Omega. The First and the Last. To say no God was formed before or after refers to the fact it just was not so...it doesn't mean He was formed.

It means that YHWH/Jesus was formed physically. God the Trinity is an invisible Spirit and exists physically in Christ. Jesus is the beginning of the creation.

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Amen?

 

[dad]

It means that YHWH/Jesus was formed physically. God the Trinity is an invisible Spirit and exists physically in Christ. Jesus is the beginning of the creation.

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Amen?

Not at all.

"The beginning of the creation of God
That is, the head and governor of all creatures: the king of the creation. See on Colossians 1:15. By his titles, here, he prepares them for the humiliating and awful truths which he was about to declare, and the authority on which the declaration was founded."


Revelation - Chapter 3 - Adam Clarke Commentary on StudyLight.org

"
The beginning of the creation of God;
not the first creature that God made, but the first cause of the creation; the first Parent, producer, and efficient cause of every creature; the author of the old creation, who made all things out of nothing in the beginning of time; and of the new creation, the everlasting Father of, everyone that is made a new creature; the Father of the world to come, or of the new age and Gospel dispensation; the Maker of the new heaven and new earth; and so a very fit person to be the Judge of the whole world, to summon all nations before him, and pass the final sentence on them. The phrase is Jewish, and it is a title the Jews give to Metatron, by whom they sometimes mean the Messiah; so those words in (Genesis 24:2) , and Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, they paraphrase thus F2;


``"and Abraham said unto his servant", this is Metatron, (or the Mediator,) the servant of God, "the eldest of his house"; for he is (Mwqm lv wytwyrb tlxt) , "the beginning of the creation of God", who rules over all that he has; for to him the holy blessed God has given the government of all his hosts.''


Christ is the (arch) , "the Prince", or Governor of all creatures."
Revelation - Chapter 3 - Verse 14 - The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible on StudyLight.org



" beginning of the creation of God--not he whom God created first, but as inCol 1:15-18 (see on Col 1:15-18), the Beginner of all creation, its originating instrument. All creation would not be represented adoring Him, if He were but one of themselves. His being the Creator is a strong guarantee for His faithfulness as "the Witness and Amen."
Revelation - Chapter 3 - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary on StudyLight.org


"
The beginning of the creation of God ...
Plummer pointed out that the words here bear two possible interpretations:





The two meanings are: (1) that which would make Christ the first created thing of all things God created, and (2) that which would understand Christ as the Source of all the things God created. F62
Plummer and many other able scholars declare the second meaning to be the one intended here. "The words mean, the one from whom creation took its beginning." F63 The agreement with Col. 1:16 is probably intended, for the church in Laodicea received Colossians."

Revelation - Chapter 3 - Coffman's Commentary of the New Testament on StudyLight.org


"
(a) that this is not a necessary signification of the phrase, since no one can show that this is the only proper meaning which could be given to the words, and therefore the phrase cannot be adduced to prove that he is himself a created being. If it were demonstrated from other sources that Christ was, in fact, a created being, and the first that God had made, it cannot be denied that this language would appropriately express that fact. But it cannot be made out from the mere use of the language here; and as the language is susceptible of other interpretations, it cannot be employed to prove that Christ is a created being.

(b) Such an interpretation would be at variance with all those passages which speak of him as uncreated and eternal; which ascribe Divine attributes to him; which speak of him as himself the Creator of all things. Compare John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2,6,8,10-12. The third signification, therefore, remains, that he is "the beginning of the creation of God," in the sense that he is the head or prince of the creation; that is, that he presides over it so far as the purposes of redemption are to be accomplished, and so far as is necessary for those purposes. This is

(1) in accordance with the meaning of the word, Luke 12:11; 20:20, et al, ut supra; and

(2) in accordance with the uniform statements respecting the Redeemer, that "all power is given unto him in heaven and in earth," (Matthew 28:18) that God has "given him power over all flesh," (John 17:2) that all things are "put under his feet," (Hebrews 2:8; 1 Corinthians 15:27) that he is exalted over all things, Ephesians 1:20-22. Having this rank, it was proper that he should speak with authority to the church at Laodicea."

Revelation - Chapter 3 - Barnes' Notes on the New Testament on StudyLight.org

 

[Aman777]

The two meanings are: (1) that which would make Christ the first created thing of all things God created, and (2) that which would understand Christ as the Source of all the things God created. F62
Plummer and many other able scholars declare the second meaning to be the one intended here. "The words mean, the One from whom creation took its beginning." F63 The agreement with Col. 1:16 is probably intended, for the church in Laodicea received Colossians."

I agree with (2) also. YHWH/Jesus IS God in physical form.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:15 ¶ Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

Jesus is the Light of the first Day and the ONLY Image of the invisible God, as I posted. Amen?

 

[dad]

I agree with (2) also. YHWH/Jesus IS God in physical form.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:15 ¶ Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

Jesus is the Light of the first Day and the ONLY Image of the invisible God, as I posted. Amen?

Jesus was not created He is God.

 

[Kylie]

Only on paper.

And reality.

Only on paper.

And reality.

Suddenly "see" becomes "find" now?

Quibbling over minutiae, the last refuge of one who doesn't have a point.

Neat.

Yeah, science is pretty awesome.

Only on paper.

And reality.

After how many tries?

What are you talking about? This kind of test has consistently shown that two species, say a sparrow and a hawk are more closely related to each other than either of them is to, say, a tiger, and that a tiger and a lion are both more closely related to each other than they are two the sparrow.

Just use the right software and calibrated equipment, right?

Your conspiracy theorizing is completely unwarranted.

What?

I am asking why dad thinks that the best way to determine if a religion is true is to see whether it claims that people met some creator god.

If it's written right.

I wrote perfectly legibly.

Mohammad is a false prophet; and Allah, if he exists, is a fallen angel.

Unsupported claim.

Do you believe that?

I believe that Muslims think that. I do not think that there is any kind of deity that actually created the universe.

If not, may I not as well?

Do you realise that you are denying the God you claim to worship? The God worshipped by Muslims is LITERALLY the same God worshipped by Christians. "Allah" is just the word for God in their language. Even the POPE claims that Christians and Muslims worship the same God. Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

But the Pope can take a hike, huh?

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you realise that you are denying the God you claim to worship?

No, I sure don't.

The God worshipped by Muslims is LITERALLY the same God worshipped by Christians.

Why are we the Great Satan then?

And last I checked, Allah had no son.

"Allah" is just the word for God in their language.

"Allah" is a proprietary eponym ... like Kleenex, Scotch tape, and Linoleum.

He was originally the primary deity of the Quraysh tribe, from which Mohammad was from.

Allah was the moon god.

Even the POPE claims that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

But the Pope can take a hike, huh?

The Pope needs Jesus Christ ... like anyone else.

 

[Aman777]

Jesus was not created He is God.

Amen, and He exists as the Light, today. He's the Light of New Jerusalem in the 3rd Heaven. Rev 21:23 When God said "Let there be Light" Jesus came into the physical world from within the Trinity, as the ONLY Begotten/Image of God, the invisible Spirit. When you have seen Jesus, you have seen God. Jhn 14:9 God Bless you

Col 2:9 For in Him dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[dad]

Amen, and He exists as the Light, today. He's the Light of New Jerusalem in the 3rd Heaven. Rev 21:23 When God said "Let there be Light" Jesus came into the physical world from within the Trinity, as the ONLY Begotten/Image of God, the invisible Spirit. When you have seen Jesus, you have seen God. Jhn 14:9 God Bless you

Col 2:9 For in Him dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Amen, and He exists as the Light, today. He's the Light of New Jerusalem in the 3rd Heaven. Rev 21:23 When God said "Let there be Light" Jesus came into the physical world from within the Trinity, as the ONLY Begotten/Image of God, the invisible Spirit. When you have seen Jesus, you have seen God. Jhn 14:9 God Bless you

Col 2:9 For in Him dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Great so He was not created.

 

[Kylie]

No, I sure don't.

Well, you are. The God worshipped by Muslims is literally the same God worshipped by Christians - the God of Abraham.

Why are we the Great Satan then?

Citation needed.

And last I checked, Allah had no son.

Meh, irrelevant to the issue. There are many different sects of Christianity that have claims that other sects disagree with, but you still think they all worship the same God.

"Allah" is a proprietary eponym ... like Kleenex, Scotch tape, and Linoleum.

No, Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. There are many Christians who speak Arabic who use that word to describe their God. Are you claiming that these people are not Christian?

He was originally the primary deity of the Quraysh tribe, from which Mohammad was from.

So what? Like I said, Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. Whatever god they worshipped would have been called that, just the same as people of other religions refer to their deities as gods.

Allah was the moon god.

The Moon God was named Hubal, just as the Christian God is named Yahweh or Jehovah.

The Pope needs Jesus Christ ... like anyone else.

Way to avoid the point.

 

[Aman777]

Great so He was not created.

Amen, since the Son has always been as part of the Trinity. He is literally the Light of the first Day and the Light of Heaven. Rev 21:23 Jesus gave up His Image as God and came to Earth to destroy death. Phl 2:5-11

 

[Aman777]

Well, you are. The God worshipped by Muslims is literally the same God worshipped by Christians - the God of Abraham.

Doesn't matter since this verse is speaking of Jesus Christ:

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[Obliquinaut]

He was originally the primary deity of the Quraysh tribe, from which Mohammad was from.

Allah was the moon god.

I LOVE how good Christians can tell you all about the detailed pagan/secular and "evolutionary" history of every other religion but will deny that their own religion also has the handprint of man all over it.

A good Christian can tell you all the flaws of Mohammed yet some won't even accept that flawed humans penned the BIble. They can find every "weirdness" jot and tittle in the Q'ran but will bend over backwards to make conflicting or confusing verses in the Bible make sense.

It is a miracle to behold!

 

[AV1611VET]

It is a miracle to behold!

I think the term you're looking for is "monotheism."

 

[Obliquinaut]

I think the term you're looking for is "monotheism."

No, not at all! It is a uniqueness to claims that are based on "emotion". It is wholly understandable. Faith is "evidence of things unseen" and as such it is unmoored from the same kind of evidence we hold most valuable for everything else in our lives.

So many Fundamentalist Christians will not want to hear anything about the authorship of the Bible or the textual analyses or even the timing of various books. They won't want to hear about the "evolution" of Christian thought, preferring to believe that it has been handed down directly from God to the present day.

Yet they can pick through every other religion they think false and will gladly show you all the human fingerprints all over that religion. The pagan roots, the morphing of one god into another, etc.

It truly is amazing. I'm ALWAYS fascinated by seeing how religions evolve over time, how they change in accord with human whims. Even including Christianity. And so I always learn interesting things about other religions from Christians and with further reading I can find the same sorts of critiques about Christianity.

As they say: we are all atheists, I'm just atheistic about one more god than you are!

 

[AV1611VET]

Yet they can pick through every other religion they think false and will gladly show you all the human fingerprints all over that religion. The pagan roots, the morphing of one god into another, etc.

I take it Christianity to you is just another Heinz 57 variety, existing in a dog-eat-dog milieu, where BMOC is determined by geographical location?

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

I take it Christianity to you is just another Heinz 57 variety, existing in a dog-eat-dog milieu, where BMOC is determined by geographical location?

....Which version of Christianity?

 

[Speedwell]

No, I sure don't.

Why are we the Great Satan then?

For, among other things, overthrowing a democratically elected moderate government in Iran and installing a bloodthirsty tyrant in its place.