Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

[kepha31]

With all due respect, (and I read everything you wrote) all those things you said about Catholicism and "Mariology"/ "Marian veneration", just sounds like some form of neo-Gnosticism. The Gospel is not complicated, and God is not the Author of confusion. There are no mystical levels of understanding one should be striving to attain to, where saying things to "Mary" such as what is said in that prayer (consecrating oneself to her body and soul and all possessions, consecrating oneself to her as her slave etc.) is ever okay. It's not. Period.

Let us not be removed from the "simplicity" that is in Christ, remembering we must be like little children.

God bless

You may have read it, but it is evident you didn't understand it. One must be disposed to receiving it; you are not willing nor ready. That's why discussions with biased, hostile anti-Catholics is a waste of time.
The mass graves in Ireland is media sensationalism and you are wrong about sex scandals as well. The bat anti-Catholics like to beat Catholics with is, for the most part, based on 60 year old headlines. I don't like talking about it because I have to embarrass Protestants and it ends up being a rock throwing contest.

WHY IRELAND’S “MASS GRAVE” STORY IS A HOAX

IRELAND’S SHIFTY “MASS GRAVE” AUTHOR
IRELAND’S “MASS GRAVES” STORY IS FAKE NEWS



http://www.catholicleague.org/irelands-shifty-mass-grave-author/

 

[DamianWarS]

Praying to Mary or to any Saint in Heaven

By Tim Staples

[Youtube video]

I'm not so sure this is why Catholics value praying to saints but rather this is used as some sort of retrofitting into the existing value.

One issue with using this text to support praying to saints is the text doesn't actually affirm that prayers were directed to the saints they are merely collecting them into bowls and taking them to God.

Another issue is that they are not called saints they are called elders and there are only 24 of them. The saints in the text are whom the prayers started from so this isn't a translation preference as the word "saint" is clearly contrasted with the word "elder". There needs to be some reworking of the text for this to indicate that these "elders" are talking about the in excess of 10,000 saints of the Catholic church including Mary.

The speaker is quick to say thunder and lightning are symbols of God answering prayer but doesn't take the same liberties with this description of the elders offering up these bowls of incense to God. Apparently there is a lot in between that lines the only Catholic eyes can see.

 

[PeaceB]

I didn't write anything at all when I posted those verses, still you did not address them.

Alright, I'm done playing games. This is going nowhere.

You have been given Scripture (with no comments) and you do not acknowledge any of it.

So, keep praying to those who have left this life, regardless of what the Bible says.

God bless

I did address and acknowledge them. I wrote "The Word of the Lord. Thanks be to God."

There is no need for me to engage you in a lengthy debate over them, because they clearly do not state or teach "you are forbidden to direct any communication towards people who have left this Earth." That is merely your interpretation of Scripture, and I reject your interpretation.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

A common phrase used among EO clegy... "Death is a thin veil and love can reach through it." Often heard at funeral services.

Forgive me...

 

[amariselle]

I did address and acknowledge them. I wrote "The Word of the Lord. Thanks be to God."

There is no need for me to engage you in a lengthy debate over them, because they clearly do not state or teach "you are forbidden to direct any communication towards people who have left this Earth." That is merely your interpretation of Scripture, and I reject your interpretation.

Your choice. You are right, you do not need to discuss them.

God bless.

 

[Phil 1:21]

It's quite telling that you are not willing to simply share Scripture to support praying to Mary.

As for commenting on what you post, I am trying to stay on topic. It's a fair enough request. If you want to start a thread based on Catholic support for praying to Mary, you can always do so.

In his/her defense, the article did have one, ONE, scriptural reference the author claimed was a mandate to pray to saints (Job 5:1). Ironically enough, the person speaking in Job 5:1 wasn't God or even Job. It was Eliphaz, Job's friend who was rebuking him, telling him that he was responsible for his misfortune. He's not telling Job to pray to saints; he's responding to Job's lament that God has forsaken him. And three verses later, what does he tell Job to do?

"“But if I were you, I would appeal to God; I would lay my cause before him." Job 5:8

And from there he goes on to make his case for praying to God alone.

This is a prime example of the problem with a religious system that teaches people not to think, but simply to obey and unquestioningly believe what other men tell them. People don't do simple fact checking (like seeing what the quoted scripture actually says). They just say "Yes, sir" and regurgitate what they're told. It's not remotely uniqure to the RCC, nor do all Catholics fit that mold. But we see it on display in threads like this all the time.

 

[amariselle]

In his/her defense, the article did have one, ONE, scriptural reference the author claimed was a mandate to pray to saints (Job 5:1). Ironically enough, the person speaking in Job 5:1 wasn't God or even Job. It was Eliphaz, Job's friend who was rebuking him, telling him that he was responsible for his misfortune, and giving him a whirlwind of bad advice.

This is a prime example of the problem with a religious system that teaches people not to think, but simply to obey and unquestioningly believe what other men tell them. People don't do somple fact checking (like seeing what the quoted scripture actually says). They just say "Yes, sir" and regurgitate what they're told. It's not remotely uniqure to the RCC, nor do all Catholics fit that mold. But we see it on display in threads like this all the time.

I just really wish everyone would read and study the Bible for themselves. It truly is a most precious and beautiful opportunity and privilege to do so.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I just really wish everyone would read and study the Bible for themselves. It truly is a most precious and beautiful opportunity and privilege to do so.

You do see the problem with that right? I mean you see here... everyone has read the bible and has come away with thousands of ideas...

What do we do with the history of St. Luke? Should the ancient Churches discard the truth because it cannot be shown scholastically from the canonical scriptures?

Forgive me...

 

[amariselle]

You do see the problem with that right? I mean you see here... everyone has read the bible and has come away with thousands of ideas...

What do we do with the history of St. Luke? Should the ancient Churches discard the truth because it cannot be shown scholastically from the canonical scriptures?

Forgive me...

I'm not sure what you're referring to with in regards to the history of St. Luke, but no, I do not believe that reading the Bible for yourself is a problem.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I just really wish everyone would read and study the Bible for themselves. It truly is a most precious and beautiful opportunity and privilege to do so.

I agree. It's like people on Facebook who share fake news stories without bothering to take less than a minute to fact check them. If folks would just open a Bible, these conversations would be so much easier.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I'm not sure what you're referring to with in regards to the history of St. Luke, but no, I do not believe that reading the Bible for yourself is a problem.

St. Luke created the first Christian Icon.

I've been on here for 13 years. The biggest problem is the variety of ideas. It's like cafeteria Christianity. Some of this, some of that... no, not that, I don't like that.

Forgive me...

 

[PeaceB]

I just really wish everyone would read and study the Bible for themselves. It truly is a most precious and beautiful opportunity and privilege to do so.

We do study Scripture for ourselves. We derive different conclusions than you do. We already established previously that you equate your personal interpretations of Scripture with the inspired Word of God. Perhaps that is why you have such trouble understanding how so many people interpret Scripture differently than you.

 

[PeaceB]

I agree. It's like people on Facebook who share fake news stories without bothering to take less than a minute to fact check them. If folks would just open a Bible, these conversations would be so much easier.

We do study Scripture, and we reject your interpretations. So you can spare us all with your smug and cowardly back-handed insults.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is where your stubborn prejudice has taken over your ability to reason. There is no "contacting the dead" in the occult sense. Yes, they are wrong. I showed you the catechism that says it is wrong, but your mind is made up that we teach against our own teaching. Here it is again:
2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone. more here
Catholics fully agree that these things are prohibited, but deny that the Communion of Saints is a practice included at all in those condemnations. Do you understand yet that the Church condemns conjuring up the dead??? How many more times are you going to repeat the same lunacy? Your prejudice has blinded you.


One and only mediator has been explained 3 times on this thread. See the second heading here: Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers It does not refute intercessory prayers but affirms it.
The rich man didn't pray to Abraham?
Dialogue on the Rich Man Praying to Abraham (Luke 16)
Peter didn't pray to Tabitha to rise from the dead? Acts 9:36-41
The prophet Samuel didn't appear to King Saul? 1 Samuel 28:12, 14-15
What about Moses and Elijah? Matthew 17:1-3
Matthew 27:52-53 (raised bodies after the crucifixion)
Revelation 11:3, 6 (the “Two Witnesses”)
We must conclude based on the above passages that contact between heaven and earth is God’s will; otherwise He wouldn’t have permitted it in these instances. The Catholic belief in the interconnection between heaven and earth cannot be ruled out as “unbiblical”. It is not "conjuring up the dead".
Does God Forbid Absolutely ALL Contact with the Dead?
It is my contention that a denial of the interconnection between heaven and earth is a false man made Protestant tradition. No one wrote against it for 1500 years, but has become "pop theology" in the last 200 years. That's why objection to the doctrine is a man made tradition.

The richman was already dead and so was Abraham. No prayer was happening there. As for Peter, James, and John on the mountain when it transfigured with Jesus there, you will notice that no actual conversation happened between Jesus's disciples and Moses and Elijah. In fact, God the Father said to them to hear Jesus and do what He says. If this was a case for RCC dogma, then we would see the Father say that the disciples could later pray to Elijah and Moses. But nothing like this had ever happened.

I mean, you really have no real case here with Scripture, my friend. If you are honest with yourself and you sit down and read the Bible, and take notes on the practices of the RCC and compare it with the followers of Jesus and what they believe with Scripture, you will see that they are two worlds apart. We see no popes, we see no bowing down to statues and a confusion with real idolatry. We see no man going to a confessional or believers praying to dead saints. There are no elaborate rich huge buildings, etc. being described in Scripture. Nobody dressed in long flowing robes of which Jesus condemned among the religious elite during his time. There is no pagan sun worship symbols placed everywhere. Nobody is wearing pagan fish hats that can be seen in stone tablets in Babylon. None of this is seen among the saints if you were to read the New Testament. It is all fabrication in your mind that they did these things and it is not clearly stated (or hinted at) in Scripture. Let's face it, you enjoy these practices and so you are trying to act like the Bible defends them when it really doesn't. Be honest with yourself. Show us the verses for all the RCC practices in Scripture. Then we can talk. I mean, why do you think the RCC does not believe in Sola Scriptura? It is because their extra church traditions cannot be seen in Scripture. Think, my friend.


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[amariselle]

I agree. It's like people on Facebook who share fake news stories without bothering to take less than a minute to fact check them. If folks would just open a Bible, these conversations would be so much easier.

I agree. So much in Scripture is said so plainly, and all the most important things are not a matter of "personal interpretation", but rather, of simply understanding the context and what is being said.

 

[amariselle]

We do study Scripture for ourselves. We derive different conclusions than you do. We already established previously that you equate your personal interpretations of Scripture with the inspired Word of God. Perhaps that is why you have such trouble understanding how so many people interpret Scripture differently than you.

Again, and I do not know how many times I have to say this. You have been shown Scripture with zero added comments, you still refuse to address it.

 

[amariselle]

St. Luke created the first Christian Icon.

I've been on here for 13 years. The biggest problem is the variety of ideas. It's like cafeteria Christianity. Some of this, some of that... no, not that, I don't like that.

Forgive me...

I've been off and on here for 13 years too. A lot has changed since I first joined.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I agree. So much in Scripture is said so plainly, and all the most important things are not a matter of "personal interpretation", but rather, of simply understanding the context and what is being said.

May I ask... When you read the parable of the Good Samaritan, do you see the Inn as a reference to The Church, the Innkeeper as clergy? The wine and oil as part of The Holy Sacraments?

Forgive me...

 

[PeaceB]

Again, and I do not know how many times I have to say this. You have been shown Scripture with zero added comments, you still refuse to address it.

I did address it. I agree with the Scriptures. They do not contradict Catholic faith or practice, and you have not demonstrated that they do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We do study Scripture, and we reject your interpretations. So you can spare us all with your smug and cowardly back-handed insults.

But you cannot be honest with yourself and say that any of the RCC church traditions are actually clearly spelled out for us or even hinted at within Scripture. For me, I would want to follow exactly what I see the followers of Jesus did in the New Testament. So far I have not read about any popes, pagan fish hats, pagan sun symbols placed in staffs, and behind the heads of saints in pictorial artwork, the confusion of bowing down to idols to communicate to dead saints over the condemnation of real idolatry. I do not read about how there are big huge rich church buildings and how men dressed in long flowing robes that Jesus condemned among the religious elite during his own time. I do not see any saint in the New Testament praying to other dead saints. Not once is this seen or commanded by God. Actually, the Scriptures always tell us to pray to God and never to a dead person. We do not read about the veneration of Mary, etc. We do not read about men going to a confessional. All these things must be invented in your own imagination that they are in Scripture.

In other words, if a new believer were to follow the New Testament EXACTLY in what God commands of that believer within the New Testament, and if they were to pattern their life after Jesus and His followers, none of the RCC church traditions would be included in their life because a believer (who is being honest with what God's Word says) would not want to go beyond what God's Word says. In other words, just follow the New Testament. Read it. Put those words inside your heart and follow the NT and you will come away not doing anything that the RCC pushes.


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