kepha31
Regular Member
Does your constant posting of anti-Catholic propaganda make it true?Staples has been exposed as a specious sophist of RC propaganda, and i doubt he has anything new, and I will post what i did on a concurrent thread here (Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?) of desperate Catholics seem to think constant posting of such propaganda will make it true.
That's 5 topics in one paragraph. The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century. Praying to the Saints | Catholic AnswersWhen the Holy Spirit inspires approx. 200 prayers in Scripture and instructs us to prayer after this manner, "Our Father who art in Heaven," to whom believers have direct access to in the holy of holies in Heaven by the blood of Christ, (Hebrews 10:19) who is the only heavenly intercessor btwn God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), who is the only one said to ever live to do so, (Hebrews 7:25) and never shows created being having the ability to hear all prayer, and nowhere records any prayer/supplication to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord - except by pagans - despite there always being plenty of created being in Heaven to pray to, and despite prayer to created beings being a most basic common practice by Catholics;
In other words, this attack is a false man made tradition.
No, it is not entirely absent from Scripture.then we can be sure praying to created beings in Heaven is not Scriptural, and to do so it is impugn the Spirit of God for only showing prayer made to God, and only teaching that prayer to God is addressed to God.
rayer to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) is simply another of the Catholic distinctives that are not manifest in the inspired record of what the NT church believed and practiced (Acts onward, which is interpretive of the gospels) and here is absent from the entire body of inspired Scripture.
Dialogue: "Why pray to a saint rather than to God?"
Prayers to saints is not mandatory, not a "supreme law". You are being vicious.Although the weight of Scriptural warrant is not the basis for the veracity of Catholic doctrine, and what "The Catholic Church" says is to be the supreme law, in condescension to those to test what is taught by the inspired writings, as the noble Bereans did, (Acts 17:11) and not vice versa, Catholics will desperately attempt to support PTCBIH by reasoning that since we ask each other to pray for us on earth then we can do so of those in Heaven.
The Bereans were Greek Pharisees and had accepted the Greek Deuterocanon as Scripture 200 years before Christ, the books rejected by human opinion. You can reject the Deuterocanon as Scripture if you want, I don't care. But you are forced to reject the Jewish history that goes with it. That's why you cannot, or will not, come to terms with the Jewish origins of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints.
a Catholic invention.
This is a misrepresentation. The "Berlin Wall" you have erected dividing heaven from earth is not biblical.But only God is shown able to hear all prayer and is the only one appealed to as able to do so, and "only knowest the hearts of all the children of men," (1 Kings 8:39; 2 Chronicles 6:30; Acts 1:24) and from what I recall any two-way communication btwn created beings required both to somehow be visibly in the same place, versus believers praying "hear Thou from Heaven" 2 Chronicles 6:21,23,25,27,30,33,35,39).
In Revelation 5:8, the “twenty-four elders” (usually regarded by commentators as dead human beings) “fell down before the Lamb . . . with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” They appear to have other people’s prayers, to present to God. So the obvious question is: what are they doing with them? Why does Revelation present dead saints presenting the prayers of other saints to God? You have lots of verses but no answers.Catholics also vainly imagine that Angels and elders offering up prayers in Heaven (Revelation 5:8; 8:5) somehow supports praying to them, but which is not what is shown, nor even that they knew the express contents of these prayers before hand, and rather than this offering of prayers being some continuous postal service, they are offered in memorial before the judgments of the last days (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; f. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 6:15; 24:7; Num. 5:15)
If they have them, it stands to reason as a rather straightforward deduction, that they heard the initial prayers as well, or at least were granted knowledge of them in some fashion, granted ultimately through the power of God. Revelation 8:3-4 is even more explicit. Rather than equate incense and prayers, it actually distinguishes between them, and presents the scenario that the prayers and incense are presented together.
So the question, again, is: what is this angel doing with “prayers of the saints” — presenting them to God? It seems clear to me that they have heard the prayers, and are involved as intercessors. Angels are extremely intelligent beings. We know that they rejoice when a sinner repents. They have knowledge in ways that we do not; above our comprehension. This is biblical proof that dead saints and angels both somehow have our prayers and present them to God. They are acting as intercessors and intermediaries. How do they hear our prayers? God gives them the power to do so because they are in heaven and therefore, outside of time. They are aware of earthly events. We know that from Hebrews 12:1 (“we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses”), and from Revelation 6:9-10, where dead saints are praying for those on the earth.
For when "He maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. (Psalms 9:12; cf. Genesis 4:10) and
We also know of several incidents where dead men (even some from heaven) interact with those on earth:before judgment God brings forth testimony of the warrant for it, which includes the cry of those martyred souls under the altar in Rv. 6:9, and with odors representing prayer, akin to Leviticus 6:15, "burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the Lord." (Leviticus 6:15)
the Transfiguration (Mt 17:1-3 / Mk 9:4 / Lk 9:30-31),
the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3-13,
the prophet Samuel (not just a demon impersonating him: 1 Sam 28:7-20),
and “many bodies of the saints” that came out of their graves after Jesus’ Resurrection and went into Jerusalem, appearing to many (Mt 27:50-53).
In the deuterocanonical book of 2 Maccabees (15:13-16) the prophet Jeremiah returns to earth.
This is our entire rationale for asking saints to pray to God for us: all from the Bible:
1) Holy men and women’s prayers have great power. James 5:14-18
2) Dead saints are perfected in holiness and are still part of the Body of Christ.
3) The Blessed Virgin Mary in particular is exceptionally holy (Immaculate Conception) and as the Mother of God, her prayers have more power and effect than that of any other creature: all by God’s grace.
4) We know that they are aware of what goes on in the earth.
5) We know that they exercise much charity and pray for us.
Dialogue: "Why pray to a saint rather than to God?"
Show me where any official Catholic document, or from a reputable Catholic apologist, has taken these verses out of context, or stop making things up.Another attempt to invoke Genesis 48:16, taking it out of context, in which the addressee is God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, (Genesis 48:15) who is addressed as an angel, as in other examples of angelophanies (cf. Genesis 32:22-30 , Hosea 12:4; Acts 7:30) who "redeemed me [Joseph] from all evil," which manifestly was God. Joseph is not changing the addressee from God to an anonymous angel, but is addressing God as an angel.
This is sheer nonsense. Praying to created elements is just another stupid anti-Catholic myth invented by bible cults trying to undermine the historic Church to justify their late arrival.Another and egregious example is that of using such as texts "Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts" (Psalms 148:2) to support praying to angels. However, this also ignores context for to be consistent, contextually the Catholic must also affirm praying to created elements is also encouraged:
Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. (Psalms 148:3) Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps: Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word: Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars: Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl: (Psalms 148:7-10)
More anti-Catholic propaganda that you can't prove.Catholics also employ in the specious hermeneutic that if God does not specifically explicitly disallow something then it may be sanctioned, as if the Spirit of God would actually fail to provide actual examples of PTCBIH while providing approx. 200 prayers, and yet recording that of such by pagans, and only instructing and exampling prayer to God in Heaven.
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