Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?

Status
Not open for further replies.

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,775
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
Which is abused by those who hypocritically judge those who censor others for sin or false teaching. In context the warning is against the very thing those typically invoke it are engaging in, that of hypocritical judging, that of warning that "with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged..Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?"
Matthew 7:1-4

But which is not censoring beholding the mote that is in thy brother's eye and pointing it out in correction, but of first considering oneself how we may be guilty in some way of the same, and confessing that, and correcting it:

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. (Matthew 7:5)


And which is the only way we are to obey the commands to judge, as "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Ephesians 5:11) One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; (Titus 1:12-13)

I may not be guilty of one matter of self control, but be guilty of another, and thus while i can condemn one who justifies such as not being sin, yet i must have compassion on those struggling to overcome such sin.
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
He led by example on Mt Tabor.

Incorrect. Jesus was not praying to Moses and Elijah at His transfiguration, neither did He once tell His disciples to do so.

Jesus' transfiguration was a revealing of His glory as the one and only Son of God, and a fulfillment of prophecy. Witnessed by the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah).
 
Upvote 0

AvilaSurfer

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 14, 2015
9,736
4,784
NO
✟928,096.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
A false analogy, for while Scripture teaches that "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things," (Genesis 9:3) and thus created things may have medicinal value, yet this does not sanction consuming the flesh of man, even as a consensual practice, as in endocannibalism (though perhaps in dire circumstances when one cannot find food cannibalism of the dead might be sanctioned).

Likewise Scripture exhorts and only teaches of prayer to God, providing approx. 200 prayers to Heaven, none of which are addressed to created beings - except by pagans - and with instruction on whom to address being to God, who is the only one shown able to hear all prayer, and to know all hearts.

You might argue PTCBIH can be necessary, but which is not seen in Scripture, and presumes an ability which only God is shown to have.
Oh please. When it suits you, you want Scripture to be literal. When you want wiggle room, not so much. Nice dodge.
 
Upvote 0

Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2017
424
234
28
Heaven
✟12,836.00
Country
Zimbabwe
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God.

The Bible nowhere encourages or even MENTIONS believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers.

Some believe that those who are glorified in Heaven have MORE "direct access" to God than we do.

Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God on our behalf, it is MORE effective than us praying to God directly.

This concept is blatantly un-Biblical.

Hebrews 4:16
tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "approach the throne of grace with confidence."

My dear sisters and brothers, what is your opinion/view on this?

View attachment 204090

Your high priest now is Jesus Christ , pray to him and he will pray to Father for you , moreover he will pray to Father for you even before you ask him to pray for you that's how good it is to have such high priest like him :)

Hebrews 4:14-16

Jesus know how hard it is to be sinless , he had to be sinless for 33 years and he knows what we feel when we are tempted.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

seashale76

Unapologetic Iconodule
Dec 29, 2004
14,001
4,395
✟171,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Didn't read past the first page. However, I'm not one to keep coming up with new posts for the same old topics- so here is an older post of mine.

I pray thee, to hearken unto my post.

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as 'prayer'. These words encompass supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving, etc. Prayer to the saints IS NOT WORSHIP! I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ's mediation is what makes intercession possible.

The saints are alive in Christ. Mary, the Theotokos (God bearer) does intercede for us through prayer, as do ALL the saints. When a person asks the Theotokos, or any other saint, to pray for them, it is just like when we ask for anyone else to pray for us. Those in the Church are ALIVE in Christ, because God is the God of the living and not the dead.

As the Paschal Troparion says: Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!

Scriptures relating to saints being alive in Christ, et cetera:
John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Revelation 21:27
“ … but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

John 8:51
“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”

Revelation 5:8-10
“… and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.’ ”

Revelation 11:16-18
“And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, ‘We give thanks to thee, Lord God Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign. The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.’ ”

Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"

Luke 15:7
“I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.”

Hebrews 12:22-23"No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,"

Revelation 8:3
“I saw another angel who came and stood before the altar holding a golden censer and much incense was given to him that he might add it to the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar that was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints went up before God out of the angel’s hand. And the angel took the censer and he filled it with the fire from the altar and threw it to the earth and there followed peals of thunder, and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake."

Also, on a related note, we don't pray to the dead but for the dead. Scripture supports it.
2 Maccabees 12:38-45
38 After the battle Judas led his men to the town of Adullam. It was the day before the Sabbath, so they purified themselves according to Jewish custom and then observed the holy day. 39 By the following day it was urgent that they gather up the bodies of the men who had been killed in battle and bury them in their family tombs. 40 But on each of the dead, hidden under their clothes, they found small images of the gods worshiped in Jamnia, which the Law forbids Jews to wear. Everyone then knew why these men had been killed. 41 So they praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge, who reveals what is hidden, 42 and they begged him that this sin might be completely blotted out. Then, Judas, that great man, urged the people to keep away from sin, because they had seen for themselves what had happened to those men who had sinned. 43 He also took up a collection from all his men, totaling about four pounds of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. Judas did this noble thing because he believed in the resurrection of the dead. 44 If he had not believed that the dead would be raised, it would have been foolish and useless to pray for them. 45 In his firm and devout conviction that all of God's faithful people would receive a wonderful reward, Judas made provision for a sin offering to set free from their sin those who had died.
This is considered to be a direct reference to a prayer for a departed person in the NT:
2 Timothy 1:16-18
16 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17 On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.
So, there you have it. The saints are not only alive in Christ, but we also pray for the departed. Scripture supports this and some of us take this seriously and literally. Believe it or not, just don't make the mistake of claiming we're doing something we really aren't doing, such as not going directly to God in prayer, because we very much do.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FenderTL5
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
My dear sister, I completely agree with you. Asking saints to intercede for us to God is found NOWHERE in the 66 books of the Bible

Of course, there are really 73 books in the Bible, and if you read them, there are reasons to pray for the dead. For instance,

and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. ...

The noble Judas they are talking about is Judas Maccabeus, and the quotation is from 2 Maccabees 12:42-45New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
 
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,513
New York
✟212,454.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
And just where in any translation "correct" such as the KJV so that the Scriptures clearly teach the constant intercession of the heavenly saints, and thus praying to them?

Angels and elders offering up prayers in Heaven (Revelation 5:8; 8:5) does not support praying to t (Leviticus 6:15)

Then it's obvious that not only is your reading incorrect so is your pseudo scriptures. The KJV,?? Let me guess it's a perfect translation of the Hebrew and Greek ? And this is why those into bibliolatry after reading your KJV reject the Trinity while others uphold it, some reject soul sleep while others uphold it, some reject as sexual immorality while others claim it's all good from a biblical point of view. Isn't it amazing how you westerns can take both sides of all these issues and all claim your bible told you so. And for good measure the Holy Spirit lead all of you to these contradictory positions. Sorry but do the world a favor and stop reading your bibles.
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Then it's obvious that not only is your reading incorrect so is your pseudo scriptures. The KJV,?? Let me guess it's a perfect translation of the Hebrew and Greek ? And this is why those into bibliolatry after reading your KJV reject the Trinity while others uphold it, some reject soul sleep while others uphold it, some reject as sexual immorality while others claim it's all good from a biblical point of view. Isn't it amazing how you westerns can take both sides of all these issues and all claim your bible told you so. And for good measure the Holy Spirit lead all of you to these contradictory positions. Sorry but do the world a favor and stop reading your bibles.

Seriously?!

Do you know how many people have died so that we can have the blessing and the privilege to read God's inspired word? Do you know how many people, even today, would give everything just to be able to do so?

Do you know how desperately the world needs to hear about the hope of salvation in Christ contained in the pages of the Bible? And yet you would say something as ugly and horrendous as that. Despicable.

Romans 10
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

salt-n-light

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 8, 2017
2,607
2,526
32
Rosedale
✟165,859.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God.

The Bible nowhere encourages or even MENTIONS believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers.

Some believe that those who are glorified in Heaven have MORE "direct access" to God than we do.

Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God on our behalf, it is MORE effective than us praying to God directly.

This concept is blatantly un-Biblical.

Hebrews 4:16
tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "approach the throne of grace with confidence."

My dear sisters and brothers, what is your opinion/view on this?

View attachment 204090

YES. COMPLETELY YES. STOP PRAYING TO THE DEAD.
 
Upvote 0

seashale76

Unapologetic Iconodule
Dec 29, 2004
14,001
4,395
✟171,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Then it's obvious that not only is your reading incorrect so is your pseudo scriptures. The KJV,?? Let me guess it's a perfect translation of the Hebrew and Greek ? And this is why those into bibliolatry after reading your KJV reject the Trinity while others uphold it, some reject soul sleep while others uphold it, some reject as sexual immorality while others claim it's all good from a biblical point of view. Isn't it amazing how you westerns can take both sides of all these issues and all claim your bible told you so. And for good measure the Holy Spirit lead all of you to these contradictory positions. Sorry but do the world a favor and stop reading your bibles.
I disagree that people should stop reading their bibles. God can and does use the scriptures to draw people to Himself. It was actually reading the scriptures that started to cause me to question many of the doctrines with which I was raised. Many don't know better- because this very American Christianity is all they have ever known. They literally cannot conceive of another way. I've often found Evangelical types will take scriptures literally that are not and will make other scriptures metaphorical that are literal. It's like, in their effort to distance themselves from anything that seems too liturgical and historical (which they are indoctrinated to be biased against), they throw the baby out with the bathwater and attempt to reinvent the wheel, to their detriment. God can overcome this. Stopping the reading of the scriptures is not the answer.
 
Upvote 0

Traveling teacher

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2017
993
499
64
Belton
✟31,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
GOd rebuked Peter for wanting to make an idol to Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration.....
GOd hid the body of Moses and took the body of Elijah!!,
Why did He do this????????

So they woudnt make idols of dead saints????
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Phil 1:21

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2017
5,869
4,399
United States
✟144,842.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Of course, there are really 73 books in the Bible, and if you read them, there are reasons to pray for the dead. For instance,

and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. ...

The noble Judas they are talking about is Judas Maccabeus, and the quotation is from 2 Maccabees 12:42-45New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

I have read the deuterocanonical texts, including the passage you quoted. What is conspicuously missing from 2 Maccabees is any mention of whether or not their actions yielded any results or if such actions were pleasing to the Lord. We need to understand the difference between descriptive and prescriptive. The fact that nowhere does God command anyone to do that tells us the account from 2 Maccabees, assuming it’s accurate, is descriptive.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.