Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?

[buzuxi02]

What you call apocryphal we call books "worthy to be read" and the book of Revelation falls into that tier.

 

[amariselle]

What you call apocryphal we call books "worthy to be read" and includes Revelation in that second tier.

I didn't say they weren't "worthy to be read", however, they are not on the same level or authority as inspired Scripture. Their long, convoluted, confusing and often controversial history is proof of that. Revelation, however, is absolutely canonical.

 

[buzuxi02]

I didn't say they weren't "worthy to be read", however, they are not on the same level or authority as inspired Scripture. Their long, convoluted, confusing and often controversial history is proof of that. Revelation, however, is absolutely canonical.

No, In the eastern Church there are two tiers of books and a third category called Apocryphal is rejected. Tobit and Revelation are not Apocryphal they are Anagignoskomena, 'worthy to be read'. This means they are scripture but not read publicly out loud in Liturgy.
Protestants have invented their western bibles with the gutenberg press. Meaning corrections cold not be made as they were mass produced western language translation. They try to every now and then hence hundreds of mass produced versions of the same language.

 

[amariselle]

No, In the eastern Church there are two tiers of books and a third category called Apocryphal is rejected. Tobit and Revelation are not Apocryphal they are Anagignoskomena, 'worthy to be read'. This means they are scripture but not read publicly out loud in Liturgy.
Protestants have invented their bible with the gutenberg press. Meaning corrections cannot be made to mass produced western language translation. They try hence hundreds of mass produced versions in the same language.

See, I don't believe the Bible is a man-made invention at all. I believe it is the inspired word of God.

 

[GingerBeer]

The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God.

Which bible? Catholic and Orthodox bibles contain passages that refer to prayer for those who have died and invoking those who have died and are in heaven.

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[GingerBeer]

Protestants have invented their western bibles with the gutenberg press.

The Gutenberg press predates Protestantism and the only bibles it produced were Catholic bibles.

 

[Anguspure]

I believe that is the one.

It sounds like your take on this is we all are bound for Soul Sleep until He comes again, but the few who do not sleep could be spoken to somehow. Is that a good guess?

My take is based on the correct translation of the Hebrew word [nehphesh], the implication being that the doctrine of unconditional human immortality is incorrect, and that when a person is said to be dead they really are dead, or asleep, as Paul euphemisticly puts it.

The idea of the dual ghostly nature of men being able to exist sans some sort of physical being (be it physiospiritual as in Christ Jesus) is not Jewish and only Biblical in the sense of translations that have been heavily influenced by men of Greek based learning who new almost nothing of the Jewish understanding of the metaphysical.

I would contend that the next thing that we know after death is awaking to our resurrection.

As it is for those who for sleep, we will be oblivious to the passing of time and, although in some cases thousands of years may have passed, it will all seem like we've only been away for a twinkling of an eye.

It is therefore a bit pointless asking anyone in the great cloud of witnesses to pray on our behalf because by the time they observe the things that they observe it is all said and done anyway and we might observe ourselves praying to ourselves to pray to the One that we should have been speaking to in the first place anyway.

 

[buzuxi02]

The Gutenberg press predates Protestantism and the only bibles it produced were Catholic bibles.

So you agree that protestant bibles did not exist before the Reformation? They are fairly modern western constructs, its current table of contents of today being a product of mass printing hence the populace only knew the newly mass produced table of contents ?

 

[buzuxi02]

My take is based on the correct translation of the Hebrew word [nehphesh], the implication being that the doctrine of unconditional human immortality is incorrect, and that when a person is said to be dead they really are dead, or asleep, as Paul euphemisticly puts it.

This is only partially the semitic understanding. In fact this is the standard Mesopotamian understanding as its also held amongst the Persians and Assyrians.

The nephesh or soul or life force of the body is interwined as the oil in its vessel. Upon death the soul (characterized in the OT as the life blood Genesis 9:4-5 ) is buried with its body as both components are an intrinsic aspect of itself, but the soul remains in a semi-conscious state. While it is expected this composite nature should rest in peace the nephesh can still be summoned at anytime. Hence, God told Cain that his brothers blood is crying out to him from the earth (Genesis 4:10) and the witch of Endor was able to summon the prophet Samuel ( 1 Samuel 28:13 ). On the other hand ALL men ALSO have a ruah (spirit) this ruah- spirit automatically ascends to God whom gave it. Advocates of soul sleep never want to mention the Ruah which is awake and with God as its the spark which is respoinsible for making man in His image and likeness. This is found in numerous old testament passages including the new testament. ( Ecclesiastes 12:7 2 Samuel 12:23 Philippians 1:22-24 Luke 23:46)

Paul was aware and held to this belief of the tripartite aspect of man: "And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess 5:23)

"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." (NIV) (Hebrews 4:12)

 

[Anguspure]

This is only partially the semitic understanding. In fact this is the standard Mesopotamian understanding as its also held amongst the Persians and Assyrians.

The nephesh or soul or life force of the body is interwined as the oil in its vessel. Upon death the soul (characterized in the OT as the life blood Genesis 9:4-5 ) and body are buried with the soul being in a semi-conscious state. While it is expected this composite nature should rest in peace the nephesh can still be summoned. Hence God told Cain that his brothers blood is crying out to him from the earth (Genesis 4:10) and the witch of Endor was able to summon the prophet Samuel. On the other hand ALL men ALSO have a ruah (spirit) this ruah- spirit automatically ascends to God whom gave it. This is found in numerous old testament passages including the new testament. ( Ecclesiastes 12:7 , 2Samuel 12:23 , Philipians 1:22-24, Luke 23:46)

Paul was aware and held to this belief: "And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess 5:23)

"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." (NIV) (Hebrews 4:12)

Thanks for this. What you have written gives answer to some of the rebuttal that I may have been about to face. We also have references to Sheol and the understanding of what it is to be in the Bosom of Abraham. Also the prayer of Jonah while in the whale for 3 days has a bearing here.

Nevertheless the ruah is the life force that is given by God and it is God who gives life, and God who may take it away.

The idea of some heavenly existence, where a person lives in "heaven" and that coincides with the terrestrial time frame stands in contradiction to the Biblical and Jewish doctrine of the resurrection of the dead at the end of time.

Paul speaks of preservation of the soul. In a grossly simplified sense I could similarly preserve the "name" of a person in a book of life by saving all of their mind, memories and DNA profile on a hard drive and then resurrect them at my will whenever I chose. I would suggest that this is more in keeping with our experience and with the Biblical record.

With reference to the make up of men, I do not deny that men have a non-material aspect to their being, only that they were never created to operate in a disjointed way like this. Similarly I do not deny that your computer has software that operates the hardware.

What I affirm is that when someone destroys the hardware, the software will only be recovered when if it has been backed up in the "Lambs hard drive of life" and that it is for Him to recall that data at His will. Clearly until the data is recovered onto new hardware it is effectively dead, although it may exist in a manner on the hard drive, it will only be alive and able to operate when it is resurrected at the appropriate time.

 

[Korean-American Christian]

See, I don't believe the Bible is a man-made invention at all. I believe it is the inspired word of God.

I agree.

The doctrine of biblical inerrancy is an extremely important one because the truth does matter. Here are some reasons why we should absolutely believe in biblical inerrancy:

1. The Bible itself claims to be perfect. The Bible argues for complete perfection, leaving no room for “partial perfection” theories.

2. The Bible stands or falls as a whole. It is either a trustworthy document, or it is not.

3. The Bible is a reflection of its Author.

If the Bible contains factual errors, then God is not omniscient and is capable of making errors Himself.

4. The Bible judges us, not vice versa.

5. The Bible’s message must be taken as a whole. It is not a mixture of doctrine that we are free to select from. But we simply cannot pick and choose what we like about the Bible and throw the rest away.

6. The Bible is our only rule for faith and practice. “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

 

[buzuxi02]

1. The Bible itself claims to be perfect. The Bible argues for complete perfection, leaving no room for “partial perfection” theories.

Not sure where either complete perfection or partial perfection is mentioned. Secondly how about the various translations whose language simply cannot convey the original intent?

But what is a perfect book if the interpetation and its applications are being applied wrong and misconstrued?

6. The Bible is our only rule for faith and practice. “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

This is Islamic teaching, Bibliolatry is not a christian teaching this is made clear in scripture (2 Timothy 2:2 Hebrews 2:1-4 Hebrews 5:11-14 6:1-3) Christianity including the bible condemns this practise. How is it that Jehovahs Witness, 7th Day Adventists, Westboro Baptists, Lutherans, Prebyterians, Oneness Pentecostals, Charismatic Pentecostals, Black Evangelicals, White Evangelicals, cant agree on anything with each other claiming the bible tells them so?

 

[Anguspure]

This is Islamic teaching, Bibliolatry is not a christian teaching this is made clear in scripture (2 Timothy 2:2 Hebrews 2:1-4 Hebrews 5:11-14 6:1-3) Christianity including the bible condemns this practise. How is it that Jehovahs Witness, 7th Day Adventists, Westboro Baptists, Lutherans, Prebyterians, Oneness Pentecostals, Charismatic Pentecostals, Black Evangelicals, White Evangelicals, cant agree on anything with each other claiming the bible tells them so?

Well said. Some say Sola Scriptura others say Sola Papam, as for me? I say Sola Espirito Sanctus.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God.

The Bible nowhere encourages or even MENTIONS believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers.

Some believe that those who are glorified in Heaven have MORE "direct access" to God than we do.

Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God on our behalf, it is MORE effective than us praying to God directly.

This concept is blatantly un-Biblical.

Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "approach the throne of grace with confidence."

My dear sisters and brothers, what is your opinion/view on this?

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The saints are dead and they are in eternity awaiting the return of Christ like every other believer who has died in the Lord. In actual fact, trying to communicate with the dead is an occult practice, so praying to the dead is at the same level and in my view, just as an occult practice as some medium trying to contact the dead.

 

[GingerBeer]

So you agree that protestant bibles did not exist before the Reformation? They are fairly modern western constructs, its current table of contents of today being a product of mass printing hence the populace only knew the newly mass produced table of contents ?

Protestant bibles, by definition, cannot predate the Protestant revolt and reformation following Martin Luther's excommunication from the Catholic church in 1521 AD. Such bibles are, as you indicate, comparatively "modern" in history and certainly novel for Christians of that era.

 

[GingerBeer]

The saints are dead

Jesus addressed this issue when he said regarding Abraham, Isaac and David that they are not dead but alive because God is not the God of the dead but of the living.

'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."
Matthew 22:32
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[prodromos]

The saints are dead and they are in eternity awaiting the return of Christ like every other believer who has died in the Lord.

As Jesus said to the Pharisees,

He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
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In actual fact, trying to communicate with the dead is an occult practice, so praying to the dead is at the same level and in my view, just as an occult practice as some medium trying to contact the dead.

Asking the Saints to pray for us is not the same as contacting the dead to gain secret knowledge of the past or future. We do not seek or expect any verbal reply from the Saints when we speak to them, whereas that is precisely what the occult seeks after.

 

[amariselle]

As Jesus said to the Pharisees,

He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.​

Did Jesus also tell the Pharisees to pray to the saints. Even once?

When people say that the saints are dead, they do not mean eternally, they mean physically. As in, having left their earthly bodies, and this earthly life.

 

[prodromos]

Did Jesus also tell the Pharisees to pray to the saints. Even once?

He led by example on Mt Tabor.

 

[GingerBeer]

Did Jesus also tell the Pharisees to pray to the saints. Even once?

The scriptures told them how the Prophet Jeremiah was invoked by faithful Jews. But the Pharisees were not faithful Jews were they. They plotted to crucify the Son of God.