Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?

[Root of Jesse]

The Bible is the Bible. And it calls all believers saints (separated) because we have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus, not of their works.

But the sainthood of heaven is different from the sainthood of earthly believers.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

But the sainthood of heaven is different from the sainthood of earthly believers.

You mean qualitatively, or quantitatively?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I don't see pictures~can we post pictures`

You have to have more posts. Keep it up.

 

[Friend-of-Jesus]

Since the angels serve Jesus, of course he doesn't pray to them.

I don't know if we should repeat every action of the Patriarchs, but I do consider Abraham's faith to be immaculate and the standard of faith. So to say your faith is better than his is not admissible to me.

I never said my faith is better than his... I don't understand the need to twist my words... All I said is that humans in the Bible are all sinful, even the best of the best. Jesus said, pray to the Heavenly Father. Abraham commited sins - laughed at God in disbelief, lied to present Sarah as sister twice - actions we shouldn't rush to copy. Therefore, if he did pray to an angel, it's not a signal for us to do same thing.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Of course it's about the content of the prayer! What in those prayers, for example is okay?

They ask people who are alive, in heaven to intercede for the pray-er before Jesus in heaven. That's what's ok. In fact, it's recommended.

 

[amariselle]

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Yep, there it is. One of the most misquoted and misunderstood verses in all of Scripture.

What about "judge with righteous judgement? (John 7:24)

What about all the repeated warnings in Scripture to be aware of and guard against deception?

Wolves in sheep's clothing, false prophets, Satan masquerading as an "angel of light"?

 

[Root of Jesse]

You mean qualitatively, or quantitatively?

Qualitatively. We are all called to be saints. Not all of us succeed. The saints in heaven are all success stories.

 

[amariselle]

They ask people who are alive, in heaven to intercede for the pray-er before Jesus in heaven. That's what's ok. In fact, it's recommended.

They ask the "saint" to procure our salvation, to obtain mercy for us from God, they say we are the saint's servants, etc.

Not even remotely okay.

 

[amariselle]

Yes. Please explain how the Lord's Prayer is not Biblical. Or the Apostles' Creed, or the Hail Mary. Please!

The "Lord's Prayer" is addressed to God, the "Hail Mary" is addressed to Mary.

That's the issue.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yep, there it is. One of the most misquoted and misunderstood verses in all of Scripture.

What about "judge with righteous judgement? (John 7:24)

What about all the repeated warnings in Scripture to be aware of and guard against deception?

Wolves in sheep's clothing, false prophets, Satan masquerading as an "angel of light"?

1.Not misunderstood at all. God is the only judge. For us to judge others is to take upon ourselves God's work.
2. What about it?
3. Those are warnings for you to take care of yourself. Get the log out of your eye before you attempt to get the splinter out of your neighbor's eye.
4. Again, you are to judge for yourself, not cast judgement on others. It is not for you to determine whether another persons' prayer is efficacious, or if they're praying to the right person, or saying the right words. Besides, God knows what we need before we ask. So it matters not that we ask, even if we but groan, the Holy Spirit lifts our prayer.

 

[Root of Jesse]

They ask the "saint" to procure our salvation, to obtain mercy for us from God, they say we are the saint's servants, etc.

Not even remotely okay.

What is wrong with asking someone to pray for us?

 

[sethrak]

The early Church compiled the Bible and decided what best decided what best represents and is Canon~so close that we believe it Inspired.
Today there are Christians and Non Christians and Atheist and and and~explaining what is meant by what word or phrase is use to translate Աստված ասաց into English~then into modern English~sometimes they are pretty close~not always

 

[amariselle]

1.Not misunderstood at all. God is the only judge. For us to judge others is to take upon ourselves God's work.
2. What about it?
3. Those are warnings for you to take care of yourself. Get the log out of your eye before you attempt to get the splinter out of your neighbor's eye.
4. Again, you are to judge for yourself, not cast judgement on others. It is not for you to determine whether another persons' prayer is efficacious, or if they're praying to the right person, or saying the right words. Besides, God knows what we need before we ask. So it matters not that we ask, even if we but groan, the Holy Spirit lifts our prayer.

I guess the apostle Paul was guilty of judging others unrighteously as well.

I for one am glad he spoke up and wrote it down (by inspiration of the Holy Spirit)

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I never said my faith is better than his... I don't understand the need to twist my words... All I said is that humans in the Bible are all sinful, even the best of the best. Jesus said, pray to the Heavenly Father. Abraham commited sins - laughed at God in disbelief, lied to present Sarah as sister twice - actions we shouldn't rush to copy. Therefore, if he did pray to an angel, it's not a signal for us to do same thing.

Abraham didn't laugh God to scorn, as did Sarah, for he prostrated as he laughed.

I don't think Abraham presenting his wife as his sister has anything to do with the standard of his faith. Depending on how you judge it, it might be morally impaired, but it has nothing to do with any sin regarding his religious service and worship, his faith.

 

[Friend-of-Jesus]

Angels, by the way, are NOT innately any more powerful than human beings. They are only more powerful to the degree God gives them power to do things (that also applies to demons, they can't even enter swine without God giving them the power to do so). But humans can also be given immense, supernatural authority, as with Elijah and Moses.

Well, you quoted Genesis as to show that prayer to angels is permissible. It's not. It's idolatry. That's all I was saying.

Only prayer to God in His three persons is a true and valid prayer.

 

[amariselle]

What is wrong with asking someone to pray for us?

Are they living or gone from this life?

Are you asking them for things that come from God alone?

 

[Root of Jesse]

The "Lord's Prayer" is addressed to God, the "Hail Mary" is addressed to Mary.

That's the issue.

The Hail Mary is Angel Gabriel's prayer to Mary, asking her to become the mother of Jesus followed by a petition to Mary to pray for us.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Well, you quoted Genesis as to show that prayer to angels is permissible. It's not. It's idolatry. That's all I was saying.

Only prayer to God in His three persons is a true and valid prayer.

I don't agree with you. How is prayer to someone other than God, "idolatry"? Prayer just means to entreat, although lately it has been narrowed to mean in entreat in a religious context. If you entreat anyone to bless you or pray for you, you are entreating them; is that idolatry?

 

[Friend-of-Jesus]

Abraham didn't laugh God to scorn, as did Sarah, for he prostrated as he laughed.

I don't think Abraham presenting his wife as his sister has anything to do with the standard of his faith. Depending on how you judge it, it might be morally impaired, but it has nothing to do with any sin regarding his religious service and worship, his faith.

Abraham was sinful. Not holy. Only God is holy. We should not take all and every action of any human, including Abraham, in place of God's commandment. Whenever a patriarch does something that contradicts God, the will of God always superceeds.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I guess the apostle Paul was guilty of judging others unrighteously as well.

I for one am glad he spoke up and wrote it down (by inspiration of the Holy Spirit)

I don't think Paul judged anyone after his conversion.