Bible Myth #3 We are all sinners

[miknik5]

Yes you did say the messenger is more important than the message

Which is why I said what if it is a good (role model) messenger with a new message

 

[Peter J Barban]

A good messenger is essential for us to trust the message, but we need more such as a Council of Jerusalem. Or we accept a fractured Christianity as evidenced by new messages brought by Calvinism, Dispensationalism and the Pentecostalism. Those are two major options that I see.

 

[ViaCrucis]

In Jesus, we are justified by faith and made righteous. Christians are righteous saints, not unrighteous sinners.

We're both. We are simul iustus et peccator, both saint and sinner. We are redeemed new creations in Christ Jesus; but we remain sinners while alive in this mortal body of death. That's why perfection and glory is not for us in this life, but is what awaits us in the future with the resurrection of the body and the life of the age to come.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Peter J Barban]

We're both. We are simul iustus et peccator, both saint and sinner. We are redeemed new creations in Christ Jesus; but we remain sinners while alive in this mortal body of death. That's why perfection and glory is not for us in this life, but is what awaits us in the future with the resurrection of the body and the life of the age to come.

You say we are both, but the Bible does not.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You say we are both, but the Bible does not.

The Bible is clear that we are sinners on account of our fallen humanity.
The Bible is also clear that we are saints by the grace of God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Peter J Barban]

The Bible is clear that we are sinners on account of our fallen humanity.
The Bible is also clear that we are saints by the grace of God.

-CryptoLutheran

Do you have any Bible verses that say Christians are sinners?

Added: you are just repeating failed arguments from earlier on this thread.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do you have any Bible verses that say Christians are sinners?

Added: you are just repeating failed arguments from earlier on this thread.

How about this, earlier you said:

Yet, in spite of our holiness, Christians can and do sin.

Permit me to ask you a question:

Why? If Christians are new creatures in Jesus Christ, holy, righteous, etc. Then why do we still sin?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Peter J Barban]

Why? If Christians are new creatures in Jesus Christ, holy, righteous, etc. Then why do we still sin?

An excellent question and one that I have long pondered.
First, we need to agree that this is true: Christians are new, holy creatures in Jesus Christ, as yet we still sin (though I do not claim that we must sin).

I believe that Paul deals this in Romans 7:
Romans 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature[better translated as flesh]. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[flesh] a slave to the law of sin."

Paul's answer is that the Christian's inner being is holy but his flesh still desires to sin. Paul says that we are to discipline our flesh, ie, not yield to its desires and instead submit to God.

Of course, not everyone agrees with this interpretation.

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

In the same message as Bible Myth #2, my pastor said that we are all sinners. He based his evidence on
1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I affirm this verse as true. However, that does not mean that born again believers are sinners, that would require them to have a "sin nature" while in union with Christ. The Bible does not call Christians "sinners" as it does the unsaved. Instead, the Bible calls Christians "saints" (from the Greek word hagios) or holy ones:
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

The NIV obscures this idea by using different terms such as "God's people" instead of the traditional word saint:
Philippians 4:21 Greet all God's people in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters who are with me send greetings.

Even so, the meaning is there - God's people are saints/holy ones. Unfortunately, we are saints who sin. God's holy people still sin as Paul's letters make abundantly clear. Yet, Paul's message is also clear in that God's people are holy by nature and should stop acting like unsaved sinners.

Bottom line: if you are in the faith, you are a saint, not a sinner. There is no such thing as a saved sinner.

We are just forgiven sinners , but we are still sinners .

It's like if you were thief , judge asked you to pay 500$ for what you stole and your debt was paid by your father , well in court records you are still thief but thief who has paid his debt .

 

[Peter J Barban]

We are just forgiven sinners , but we are still sinners .

It's like if you were thief , judge asked you to pay 500$ for what you stole and your debt was paid by your father , well in court records you are still thief but thief who has paid his debt .

Do you have any Biblical support for your position that Christians are sinners?

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

Do you have any Biblical support for your position that Christians are sinners?

Romans 5:16-21
Most important vers if you don't want to read the rest


O yea multiply , first of all by calling yourself sinless you say that you are good enought to go to heaven by yourself because you say that you are worthy.

John 14:6

So you call this verse a lie because you think that you can go by yourself to heaven , while Jesus himself says that nobody comes but by him , but why did he say that ?

Romans 3:10
Romans 3:23
1 John 1:8-10

If you were sinless why did Christ come to die for you?

1 tim 1:15
Romans 5:6-9
2 Cor 5:21
Hebrew 13:12

If you are born pure without sin , why are you dying then ?

Romans 6:1

Just by asking this question i think that you are not saved , because you don't understand the gospel.

You need to hear , understand and then believe , you most likelly hear but for sure did not understand why Jesus even come to die for you and for sure you can't believe when you don't understand why he needed to come .

Please read 1 cor 15:1-4 , then after that from top to bottom

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
rom 3: 10,23
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
rom 6:1
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rev 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
acts 16:30-31
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
2cor 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him
1 cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Gal 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1: 18-19
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
1 Corinthians 6:15
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[pescador]

How about this, earlier you said:



Permit me to ask you a question:

Why? If Christians are new creatures in Jesus Christ, holy, righteous, etc. Then why do we still sin?

-CryptoLutheran

Because until we die we are still living in our natural bodies. We are not yet perfect so we make mistakes. However, our sins are forgiven while we are being made perfect.

 

[pescador]

We are just forgiven sinners , but we are still sinners .

It's like if you were thief , judge asked you to pay 500$ for what you stole and your debt was paid by your father , well in court records you are still thief but thief who has paid his debt .

We are most definitely not sinners. We are dead to sin and alive to God in Jesus Christ. It's true that we still sin, but we are a new creation in Christ, and in him there is no sin. Don't confuse the act with the person!

 

[toLiJC]

In the same message as Bible Myth #2, my pastor said that we are all sinners. He based his evidence on
1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I affirm this verse as true. However, that does not mean that born again believers are sinners, that would require them to have a "sin nature" while in union with Christ. The Bible does not call Christians "sinners" as it does the unsaved. Instead, the Bible calls Christians "saints" (from the Greek word hagios) or holy ones:
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

The NIV obscures this idea by using different terms such as "God's people" instead of the traditional word saint:
Philippians 4:21 Greet all God's people in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters who are with me send greetings.

Even so, the meaning is there - God's people are saints/holy ones. Unfortunately, we are saints who sin. God's holy people still sin as Paul's letters make abundantly clear. Yet, Paul's message is also clear in that God's people are holy by nature and should stop acting like unsaved sinners.

Bottom line: if you are in the faith, you are a saint, not a sinner. There is no such thing as a saved sinner.

yes, the truly righteous people don't sin and are not sinners - the belief that all people are sinners (only because they are human) is a heresy

Blessings

 

[pescador]

yes, the truly righteous people don't sin and are not sinners - the belief that all people are sinners (only because they are human) is a heresy

Blessings

There is no person who does not sin. Even the truly righteous people sin.

There is no Christian who is regarded as a sinner in the eyes of God. It's too bad that other Christians don't feel that way. Wouldn't it be nice if judgment of others and self-righteousness disappeared?

 

[unbelievable1]

Can someone expound Matthew 21?

I'm wondering whether these prostitutes and taxpayers are Christians according to the lord

And what did they receive that these men did not

Could it be Gods declared righteousness and justification

 

[pescador]

No, there were no Christians -- none -- before Jesus death and resurrection, and the giving of the Holy Spirit. Because the tax collectors and prostitutes believed him when the chief priests and elders of the people didn't, they were the more righteous.

 

[unbelievable1]

No, there were no Christians -- none -- before Jesus death and resurrection, and the giving of the Holy Spirit. Because the tax collectors and prostitutes believed him when the chief priests and elders of the people didn't, they were the more righteous.

No one can enter the kingdom of god unless they born again?

He was preaching the kingdom of god and his words were to those who would believe

He said the taxpayer and prostitutes would be entering in while the pharisees wouldn't

Why?

Because they believed the gospel and it is because of their faith in Christ that they are washed (by him) and justified (in the sight of god)

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

Because until we die we are still living in our natural bodies. We are not yet perfect so we make mistakes. However, our sins are forgiven while we are being made perfect.

Exactly , i believe we are sealed with Holy Spirit untill the day of redemption , because flesh and blood can't inherit .
1 Corinthians 15:50 , we will get glorified body just as Jesus had ( 1 John 3:2).

 

[toLiJC]

There is no person who does not sin. Even the truly righteous people sin.

There is no Christian who is regarded as a sinner in the eyes of God. It's too bad that other Christians don't feel that way. Wouldn't it be nice if judgment of others and self-righteousness disappeared?

why must we sin especially when we have to keep the Holy Commandments of God?!, why must people be sinful?!, did God create a sinful man - does He create sinful things?!, or is He the master of sinful things?!, or if He was the creator of bad things, wouldn't every person be able to call Him "author/causer of bad things"?!

Blessings