Are Poor People to Blame for their Poverty?

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If I see someone drowning my first question is not "could it be fake?" and I am surely not witholding my help because there is a possibility of fake.

Ok. What does this have to do with me post answering the OP thread title?
 
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LaraLara

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Ok. What does this have to do with me post answering the OP thread title?

You said that some people are more responsible for their poverty than others. As I can not see a way of telling this apart that does not violate privacy rights I would help everyone with good welfare.
 
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zephcom

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I just read this article in the HuffPost about it, and it seems that Republicans and Democrats feel very differently about this, and that white Christians, in particular, are more likely to blame the poor for being poor.

I am writing this not to condemn people who feel differently from me. Like you, I've known people who gamed the system, and I know people whose backgrounds meant they never had a chance, and I don't think any of us would say "all of the poor" were to blame for their condition--or that "none" were.

Here's the article link, and a quote, and I will tell you what my opinion is and why.

Christians Are More Likely To Say It's Poor People's Own Fault That They're Poor



My feelings, that they aren't responsible, is based on my life experience.

Evaluating applicants for Habitat for Humanity houses, for example, has shown me what it's like for poor people to buy a car...or go to a hospital....

One person worked in a factory for 20 years---and after she lost her job her new job paid 25% less (and her old job didn't pay great.)

Car loans have disastrous interest rates. People go to emergency rooms and when they haven't made a payment in a few years their medical debt is erased. Of course, their credit is still shot for years..do you know that people with better credit ratings pay less for homeowners' and car insurance?

If they live in small towns (or the inner city) there are no inexpensive places to shop, because they aren't high-profit areas for people to do business in. People with higher incomes get all sorts of incentives and freebies that poor people don't because wealthier people have more bargaining power.

I consider myself comfortable, not wealthy, but last year we had two free plane trips, about $500 in credit card rebates, etc. We buy a lot of things on credit and pay our bills every month...we recently bought a car and got $1400 off from GM card credits (5 points per dollar).

More comfortable people live in areas with better schools for their children. And when their children graduate, their parents often have friends or family who will help them get their foot in the door in big companies.

I have never had to drive a car with a broken windshield for a year because I couldn't afford a new one. My comprehensive insurance took care of that.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture. If we were to fill an imaginary "basket" with goods and services, exactly equal, it would cost a poor person much more than a middle class one, and even more for a wealthy one.

It makes me feel bad--

I am pleased you feel bad. A rather huge amount of the American population don't.

The reality, at least in America, is that nearly all successful people honestly believe they became successful because of their own intellect, effort and skills. The reality is that they became successful because it is almost impossible for them not to be successful.

In America, people of color are the largest amount of poor or working poor. And that is because the entire make-up of America is designed to favor white people and to put road blocks in front of people of color.

And I don't say that as sour grapes. I'm white and have benefited from this uneven playing field. I only wish I had become aware much sooner in my life.
 
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Rubiks

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I am pleased you feel bad. A rather huge amount of the American population don't.

The reality, at least in America, is that nearly all successful people honestly believe they became successful because of their own intellect, effort and skills. The reality is that they became successful because it is almost impossible for them not to be successful.

In America, people of color are the largest amount of poor or working poor. And that is because the entire make-up of America is designed to favor white people and to put road blocks in front of people of color.

And I don't say that as sour grapes. I'm white and have benefited from this uneven playing field. I only wish I had become aware much sooner in my life.

Please educate me on how our system is biased against African Americans.
 
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LaraLara

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Even if you have gained so much, you can still lose it all whether it be gradually or in a flash. My best advice is learn humility .

I had my turn of humiliation, I had to explain all my friends that I am not a libartarian anymore but a socialist. Which ment I had to explain that all I talked so fare was crap... :)
 
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Eryk

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European countries are much more atheist and they have much better social welfare systems
Christianity gave us the Social Gospel. How we got to lousy social welfare systems has little to do with religion.

After WW2, politicians in the West prevented their countries from being radicalised by compromising with labor and building the social safety net. Wages rose, the middle class grew, life was good.

Then came globalisation and the pressures of international competition. The political system moved in favor of business, with privatisation, deregulation, and a shrinking welfare state. Weak unions mean less solidarity among workers. Society became fractured, and it's getting worse.

When two effects of globalisation - mass immigration and deteriorating social services - are thought to be causally related, this is an opportunity for the right wing. This is the tension between social heterogeneity and support for social welfare: "those people" took it all, I don't want my money going to "those people".

Racism, not religion, is the reason why social programs have lagged in America. And Europe has to deal with the same ethno-cultural nostalgia that gave us Trump.
 
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LaraLara

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Racism, not religion, is the reason why social programs have lagged in America. And Europe has to deal with the same ethno-cultural nostalgia that gave us Trump.

That seems to be reasonable but it still means what you created in the US does not look very compassionate - racism and all.

To me it looks like more than one cause is at work and the article is citing one.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I hate to say it but you are rising a very big problem. European countries are much more atheist and they have much better social welfare systems (social welfare is a human right that should be achieved by all countries that can afford welfare - in other words the US is breeching a human right).

There is a dark connection between christianity and lousy welfare that I frankly can not understand - after all christianity was ment the religion of compassion.

Do you realy want to be outcompeted by the atheist countries on compassion?

You have an errant presupposition built into this. You think that it's compassionate to do for able-bodied people what they should do for themselves.

Government handouts (which are stolen from citizens) are the worst form of slavery imaginable.
 
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Waggles

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and that white Christians, in particular, are more likely to blame the poor for being poor.
Poverty and being poor are complex socio-economic realities in every modern society.
It is more that just having less money than others better off financially.
It is also about social and class structures, and culture that reinforces one's place in society.
It is about access to education, health, housing, economic opportunity and reward for labour.

Christianity has been corrupted from its original kinship structures of sharing wealth and food,
etc with all in the body of Christ to a more capitalist version of worldly enrichment being seen
as the blessing of divine provision. "Look at my home improvements and my new expensive car,
the Lord has really blessed me." Many times I have heard this false claim by those failing to
understand their Christian duty to others in the flock.

The poor is hated even by his own neighbour, but the rich has many friends.
Proverbs 14:20
Wealth makes many friends; but the poor is separated from his neighbour.
Proverbs 19:4
All the brothers of the poor man hate him; how much more do his friends go far from him?
He pursues them with words, yet they are lacking.
Proverbs 19:7

44 And all who believed were together and had all things common.
45 And they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, according as anyone
had need.
46 And continuing with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house,
they shared food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
Acts 2:
 
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Eryk

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I know, it's hard to accept that Christians are champion hypocrites. Even Muslims have much purer and stronger faith in their (equally deceiving) religion!
People say things like this when they're trying to disown their earlier membership in a group. Take away the personal issues, and you'll see that Christians are a large, complicated group of human beings. Just like I understand that not all former Christians are judgmental.
 
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Eryk

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44 And all who believed were together and had all things common.
45 And they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, according as anyone
had need.
46 And continuing with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house,
they shared food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
Act 2:
And not only in the book of Acts.

"One in mind and soul, we do not hesitate to share our earthly goods with one another. All things are common among us but our wives." -- Tertullian
 
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LaraLara

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You have an errant presupposition built into this. You think that it's compassionate to do for able-bodied people what they should do for themselves.

Government handouts (which are stolen from citizens) are the worst form of slavery imaginable.

I wished I would have paid more to the government when I was still rich and healthy. If I would have it could help me now that I am poor and disabled. Aand yes to the bystander and during certain times of the day I look able bodied.
 
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Bluerose31

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I just read this article in the HuffPost about it, and it seems that Republicans and Democrats feel very differently about this, and that white Christians, in particular, are more likely to blame the poor for being poor.

I am writing this not to condemn people who feel differently from me. Like you, I've known people who gamed the system, and I know people whose backgrounds meant they never had a chance, and I don't think any of us would say "all of the poor" were to blame for their condition--or that "none" were.

Here's the article link, and a quote, and I will tell you what my opinion is and why.

Christians Are More Likely To Say It's Poor People's Own Fault That They're Poor



My feelings, that they aren't responsible, is based on my life experience.

Evaluating applicants for Habitat for Humanity houses, for example, has shown me what it's like for poor people to buy a car...or go to a hospital....

One person worked in a factory for 20 years---and after she lost her job her new job paid 25% less (and her old job didn't pay great.)

Car loans have disastrous interest rates. People go to emergency rooms and when they haven't made a payment in a few years their medical debt is erased. Of course, their credit is still shot for years..do you know that people with better credit ratings pay less for homeowners' and car insurance?

If they live in small towns (or the inner city) there are no inexpensive places to shop, because they aren't high-profit areas for people to do business in. People with higher incomes get all sorts of incentives and freebies that poor people don't because wealthier people have more bargaining power.

I consider myself comfortable, not wealthy, but last year we had two free plane trips, about $500 in credit card rebates, etc. We buy a lot of things on credit and pay our bills every month...we recently bought a car and got $1400 off from GM card credits (5 points per dollar).

More comfortable people live in areas with better schools for their children. And when their children graduate, their parents often have friends or family who will help them get their foot in the door in big companies.

I have never had to drive a car with a broken windshield for a year because I couldn't afford a new one. My comprehensive insurance took care of that.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture. If we were to fill an imaginary "basket" with goods and services, exactly equal, it would cost a poor person much more than a middle class one, and even more for a wealthy one.

It makes me feel bad--

I don't think people in poverty are responsible for their poverty.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I wished I would have paid more to the government when I was still rich and healthy. If I would have it could help me now that I am poor and disabled. Aand yes to the bystander and during certain times of the day I look able bodied.

Almost all people are capable of work. Blind people work. Wheelchair-bound people work. People with IQs of 70 work.
 
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LaraLara

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I don't think people in poverty are responsible for their poverty.

I do ask a random person now: but does the bible know the golden rule in the positive form? Do to others what you want them to be done upon you?
 
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LaraLara

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Almost all people are capable of work. Blind people work. Wheelchair-bound people work. People with IQs of 70 work.

I have seen a doctor that convinced a shizophrenic to stop work even so she wanted to work. The reason is that the work would have worsend her condition to the degree that she would have become an even worse burden to the health care system.

You are right. All people can work ...themselves to death.

Besides there is nit enough work that is fit for people with disabilities to give them all enough to live.
 
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