Does God Turn Away People Who Want to be Saved?

[Mountainmanbob]

God is not unjust, since all have sinned and come short, God is perfectly just to destroy them in all in hell, if He wishes.
That is whole point of Paul in Romans 9, comparing the mercy God shows to some is not unjust compared to the justice God shows to some by sending them to hell. Doesn't God have the right to choose what He will do since all have sinned?

Bling, I think you think if God does not show mercy to all, God is unjust, that is not what the scriptures teach us. You may think that is arbitrary, perhaps you should remove yourself from the mindset of a governmental democracy to one of a King.

Romans 9
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory are those He has called from jews and gentiles to obtain salvation.

While the vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction, God forms them both to become what they become. The vessels of wrath, are by their nature being formed as they are, as natural man, vessels of wrath, they sin and keep on sinning against God, and don't do anything good, but they sure know how to do evil and do it.

Romans 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

That explains it all so very well and straight from God's Word. Who are we but (little men) to question God when God is God?

Why was I chosen? I have no idea? All the more reason to be very humble and grateful.

M-Bob

 

[bling]

God is not unjust, since all have sinned and come short, God is perfectly just to destroy them in all in hell, if He wishes.
That is whole point of Paul in Romans 9, comparing the mercy God shows to some is not unjust compared to the justice God shows to some by sending them to hell. Doesn't God have the right to choose what He will do since all have sinned?

Bling, I think you think if God does not show mercy to all, God is unjust, that is not what the scriptures teach us. You may think that is arbitrary, perhaps you should remove yourself from the mindset of a governmental democracy to one of a King.

Can God be the epitome of Love (unconditional, totally unselfish, sacrificial) and not show mercy to all?

Can God be totally “just” and also be totally unselfish?

If you are totally unselfish will you also have to “give up” doing some things?

The God I am seeing, reading about, experiencing and dwelling within me is doing all He can to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective, but not all mature adults are willing to humbly accept God’s pure charity.

Romans 9
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory are those He has called from jews and gentiles to obtain salvation.

While the vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction, God forms them both to become what they become. The vessels of wrath, are by their nature being formed as they are, as natural man, vessels of wrath, they sin and keep on sinning against God, and don't do anything good, but they sure know how to do evil and do it.

Ro. 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).


Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?


Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?


Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.

Romans 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

Your selection of Ro. 3: 9-12 just supports the idea of the main issue in Romans being the division between the Jews made for a special purpose and the gentile made for a common purpose and yet they are both in need of saving. Both need to wimp out, give up and surrender for self-serving reasons (to have a life) which is not “doing” something worthy of anything, righteous or really “good”.

 

[bling]

About that call going out, verse 24, 'even us whom He called'
That 'us' called, are those God has prepared beforehand to obtain the glory of salvation in Christ.

Romans 9
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory are those He has called from jews and gentiles to obtain salvation.

While the vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction, they were not called to obtain salvation and they then obtain salvation.
All the called are saved and they do obtain salvation while none of the other obtain salvation but they do obtain destruction being 'vessels of wrath'.

'THE CALLED' are those He foreknew and so HE predestined them to be saved. It is as certain as God saying 'let there be light, and it was so'.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

You need more support than just quoting scripture to proof that point since there are other interpretations of those verses.

 

[bling]

That explains it all so very well and straight from God's Word. Who are we but (little men) to question God when God is God?

Why was I chosen? I have no idea? All the more reason to be very humble and grateful.

M-Bob

How does it make you feel about those who were not chosen?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

You need more support than just quoting scripture to proof that point since there are other interpretations of those verses.

Those verses are self-explanatory easily read, easily understood, God says what he says.
M-Bob

 

[Mountainmanbob]

How does it make you feel about those who were not chosen?

No comment.
Ask God that one.
Does make one grateful that
they were chosen.

The ones that are not chosen want nothing to do with God. The gospel is foolishness to them. Is it fair that they wished not to seek God with ALL their hearts? I never question God about what He may call fair. Once again -- who are we but little men.

M-Bob

 

[Hammster]

How does it make you feel about those who were not chosen?

I feel bad from a human standpoint. I understand that there is no difference between them and me, and I deserve the same fate as them.

However, I cannot let my feelings dictate what I believe. My belief must be informed by scripture.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Be glad it's not me. If it was up to me, I would throw all Calvinists into the deepest, darkest pit of the catechumenate most Protestants don't want to admit to, or call Purgatory and sentence you to ten thousand years. You would still get to heaven, but it would take a while. ;-)

Well, I will admit that I have never come acoss a monk before but, if those thoughts above are what we call monk like love -- you won't win many for Him -- that's for sure!


M-Bob

 

[Monk Brendan]

Well, I will admit that I have never come acoss a monk before but, if those thoughts above are what we call monk like love -- you won't win many for Him -- that's for sure!

Hey, I said it was MY opinion. I was speaking only of MY thoughts, because of MY feelings toward the teachings of Calvinist theology.

I thought that you believed in ELECTION. If that is no, then how can I win any souls for Christ? Those that are ELECT are going to go to heaven no matter what I say, right? Then those that are NOT ELECT are going to go to hell, no matter how I treat them. I might as well give my own opinion, right?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Well, I will admit that I have never come acoss a monk before but, if those thoughts above are what we call monk like love -- you won't win many for Him -- that's for sure!


M-Bob

Isn't love the true test of orthodoxy? If so, there are certainly some monks, priests and nuns who prove themselves on the other side of orthodoxy.

 

[bling]

Those verses are self-explanatory easily read, easily understood, God says what he says.
M-Bob

And when the Bible says the world it means the world, when the Bible says everyone it means everyone, when the Bible says whosoever it means whosoever and so on.

 

[Hammster]

And when the Bible says the world it means the world, when the Bible says everyone it means everyone, when the Bible says whosoever it means whosoever and so on.

What does the Bible mean when it says works?

 

[bling]

No comment.
Ask God that one.
Does make one grateful that
they were chosen.

The ones that are not chosen want nothing to do with God. The gospel is foolishness to them. Is it fair that they wished not to seek God with ALL their hearts? I never question God about what He may call fair. Once again -- who are we but little men.

M-Bob

The problem Bob is that is exactly the way you were and would be without God intervening directly in your life. God is not calling this "fair/just", but your interpretation requires this injustice to be fair?

 

[bling]

I feel bad from a human standpoint. I understand that there is no difference between them and me, and I deserve the same fate as them.

However, I cannot let my feelings dictate what I believe. My belief must be informed by scripture.

The fact, that with your God given ability, you can easily see this being totally unfair and unjust should make you question your believes. It just might be that your believes are the problem.

 

[Hammster]

The fact, that with your God given ability, you can easily see this being totally unfair and unjust should make you question your believes. It just might be that your believes are the problem.

It's not unjust. Unjust would mean that my sins weren't paid for, but I was given a pass. That's unjust.

And no, my believes aren't the issue. My view lines up consistently with God's word. My feelings should have no bearing.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

And when the Bible says the world it means the world, when the Bible says everyone it means everyone, when the Bible says whosoever it means whosoever and so on.

Where in Romans 8 & 9 are those mentioned.

I understand -- many can't stand these chapters in Romans.

They cry and cry -- that ain't fair.
Fair in our thinking?
Or fair in God's thinking?

I trust in God (Christ)

M-Bob

 

[bling]

What does the Bible mean when it says works?

The Bible talks about the worker being worthy of his wage, working or laboring resulting in earning something, but a gift is not worked for or earned and in fact is in contrast to earned wages. Faith is also presented as being in contrast to working (trusting God is contrasted with trusting what self can do [work]).
The first century Jew knew what work worthy of a wage was and what a gift was. Asking for a gift/charity was not work, true beggars were not workers.
The priests did more stuff on the Sabbath days than other days, but it was not "work", but rest, since it was worship. The money they did get was to be as a gift to them (unearned), since God would not pay people to worship Him.

 

[Hammster]

The Bible talks about the worker being worthy of his wage, working or laboring resulting in earning something, but a gift is not worked for or earned and in fact is in contrast to earned wages. Faith is also presented as being in contrast to working (trusting God is contrasted with trusting what self can do [work]).
The first century Jew knew what work worthy of a wage was and what a gift was. Asking for a gift/charity was not work, true beggars were not workers.
The priests did more stuff on the Sabbath days than other days, but it was not "work", but rest, since it was worship. The money they did get was to be as a gift to them (unearned), since God would not pay people to worship Him.

My bad. Auto-correct.

What does the Bible mean when it says world?

 

[bling]

Where in Romans 8 & 9 are those mentioned.

I understand -- many can't stand these chapters in Romans.

They cry and cry -- that ain't fair.
Fair in our thinking?
Or fair in God's thinking?

I trust in God (Christ)

M-Bob

I explained briefly Ro. 9 in post 162 to show how God is totally fair and just even though he made some for a special task (Jews) and some were just common (Gentiles), yet both are equally under the same "Faith" requirement.
There is no logical problem with God's fairness/justice even from a strictly worldly view.

 

[bling]

My bad. Auto-correct.

What does the Bible mean when it says world?

I think we would agree when “world” is used in (Genesis 11:1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech.) It is referring to every old enough to speak or really every person on earth at the time but we have world preceded by “whole” also.

In Genesis 41:57 And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere. World would be limited to those nations around Egypt and not ever individual person.

The meaning of “world” is thus limited by context, but it certainly was used by Christ sometimes to mean everyone:


Matt. 13: 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels

Here it limited people to being two groups going to judgement.

What we really need to understand is how John used the word “world” and how the people of the day in and around Israel would have understood it in the context.

John 3: 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

It would not be reasonable or logical to believe John in the middle of this discourse would change the meaning to “world” and expect first century readers to caught the change without help.

This light was not limited to one part of the world or one group of people but was there for everyone and shown to those who would and would not believe, so it has to represent everyone on earth or at least all mature adults (those who can believe and those who will not believe).

Also, John says: “God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world” will what world would John be talking about if it was not all mature adults on earth?

If the world is representing at least all mature adults on earth with the light and condemnation it would need to mean the same just prior.

If God did not send the son to condemn the world but to save the world in the same sentence those two worlds would have to be the same, so is not every mature adult worthy of condemnation and if they are that would me all mature adults Christ came to save.