Trinity discussion with St Worm2

[Robban]

It was Jesus who ascended, took captivity captive, and gave gifts to men, according to Paul in Eph 4.... but that doesn't have anything to do with angels disagreeing... or rejoicing ... or Jehovah creating humans in His image.... so, could you please explain what you are saying?

When Moses ascended to heaven,
the angels protested,
" what is a human being doing among us?"

Said He to them,
"He has come to recieve the Torah."

Said they to Him,
"The esotoric treasure which was hidden with You for nine hundred and seventy four generations before the World was created, You wish to give to flesh and blood?".....

"What is man , that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You take notice of him?"
Said G-d to Moses,
"Answer them."

Shall I continue, it is pretty long?

 

[Dartman]

When Moses ascended to heaven,
the angels protested,
" what is a human being doing among us?"

Said He to them,
"He has come to recieve the Torah."

Said they to Him,
"The esotoric treasure which was hidden with You for nine hundred and seventy four generations before the World was created, You wish to give to flesh and blood?".....

"What is man , that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You take notice of him?"
Said G-d to Moses,
"Answer them."

Shall I continue, it is pretty long?

Where is this coming from? It is NOT Scripture!!

 

[Robban]

Where is this coming from? It is NOT Scripture!!

I am not antichristian, but is amusing how shallow many Christian are.

 

[Dartman]

I am not antichristian, but is amusing how shallow many Christian are.

Moses didn't ascend to heaven. Moses is sleeping in the dust, with the rest of humanity.
Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


If it's not Scripture you are quoting, you are wasting your/my time.

 

[Robban]

Moses didn't ascend to heaven. Moses is sleeping in the dust, with the rest of humanity.
Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


If it's not Scripture you are quoting, you are wasting your/my time.

What do you think ascend means,
a song of ascents,
where is heaven?

(It is from the masters, our Sages,"281)

Did not Moses ascend the mountain three times?

The third time to recieve the oral Torah,
forty days and forty nights,
that,s a whole lot of talking.

As for wasting time, yes, correct,
because most Christians think they have it all wrapped up.

Though the Clock here is 3:30 am.
it has been fun.

But pretty much talking to deaf ears.

 

[Dartman]

What do you think ascend means,
a song of ascents,
where is heaven?

(It is from the masters, our Sages,"281)

Did not Moses ascend the mountain three times?

The third time to recieve the oral Torah,
forty days and forty nights,
that,s a whole lot of talking.

As for wasting time, yes, correct,
because most Christians think they have it all wrapped up.

Though the Clock here is 3:30 am.
it has been fun.

But pretty much talking to deaf ears.

If you can make your points in the Scriptures, I am happy to discuss. The Talmud isn't Scripture, and, looking at the result in Jesus' time, is highly suspect.
Yes, Moses did Ascend the mountain. No, that didn't put him in the heaven where the angels reside, as your story indicated.

 

[danny ski]

If you can make your points in the Scriptures, I am happy to discuss. The Talmud isn't Scripture, and, looking at the result in Jesus' time, is highly suspect.
Yes, Moses did Ascend the mountain. No, that didn't put him in the heaven where the angels reside, as your story indicated.

It all depends where one stands- which is nice way of saying that the New Testament is not a Scripture either. Certainly not what Jesus used to build his case, such as it was. But, I digress. Please continue discussing the three gods. Pretty interesting, even if not Scriptural.

 

[Dartman]

It all depends where one stands- which is nice way of saying that the New Testament is not a Scripture either. Certainly not what Jesus used to build his case, such as it was. But, I digress. Please continue discussing the three gods. Pretty interesting, even if not Scriptural.

Peter categorized Paul's writings as "Scripture" in 2 Peter 3, I agree with Peter.
You ARE correct, however, Jesus certainly quoted from the OT, and called it Scripture. But, Jesus was the end/fulfillment of the Mosaic Covenant, which ended the OT.
Jehovah/YHVH God fulfilled His promise to put His words in the mouth of the "prophet like unto" Moses, and Peter confirms this is Jesus.
So, since the day of Pentecost, the Church is commanded by Jesus, and the apostles, who's writings are now Scripture.

 

[Robban]

If you can make your points in the Scriptures, I am happy to discuss. The Talmud isn't Scripture, and, looking at the result in Jesus' time, is highly suspect.
Yes, Moses did Ascend the mountain. No, that didn't put him in the heaven where the angels reside, as your story indicated.

All comes from a source, there has to be a source,
example,
we can see a sunbeam/sunray through a window or clouds,
then it is gone,
Where did it go?
it was not it,s own source, no,
it returned to it,s source from where it came,
so also with that which has been invested in each of us.

can our bodies ascend?
no, they would not survive for a moment, first the brightness would be too much.

What ascends?

They went up on a mount, and Moses and Elijah appeared,

Oh! where from?
That is from your writings, though not exactly as written of course, but you will recognize it.
.

 

[Robban]

BTW Dartman,
if you had have patience with what I was telling (#281),
You would have seen that the angels changed their tune, but
you chose to throw it out of the window.

 

[danny ski]

Peter categorized Paul's writings as "Scripture" in 2 Peter 3, I agree with Peter.
You ARE correct, however, Jesus certainly quoted from the OT, and called it Scripture. But, Jesus was the end/fulfillment of the Mosaic Covenant, which ended the OT.
Jehovah/YHVH God fulfilled His promise to put His words in the mouth of the "prophet like unto" Moses, and Peter confirms this is Jesus.
So, since the day of Pentecost, the Church is commanded by Jesus, and the apostles, who's writings are now Scripture.

Obviously I disagree. NOWHERE in the Torah it is stated that the Mosaic Law is temporary. Actually, it states the opposite.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus is God:
For the Scriptures do testify that He had power as God.

#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead.
#2. Hebrews talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later.
#4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life.
#5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world.
#6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them. This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
#7. Jesus received worship as God (Which is obvious when read Luke 7:36-50).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Important Note so that there is no confusion:

Christ is the Eternal God who is the creator (John 1:1 KJV), uncreated, and second person of the Godhead (i.e. the Word) who was made flesh (John 1:14 KJV). For the Lord our God is one God who exists in three distinct persons (i.e. the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit) (1 John 5:7 KJV). Jesus Christ is God Almighty in the flesh and He is not a created angel. In the KJV: the word "angel" in reference to the title "Angel of the Lord" is actually translated as "Messenger" in the Hebrew. So the words as we would understand it today would say "Messenger of the Lord". So, no. Jesus is not an angel. It is merely a title or a name only! Anyways, I believe this "Messenger of the Lord" is a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ (Who is God) in the Old Testament. Again, these pre-incarnate appearances are called "Theophanies" or "Christophanies".​

Jesus (Who is the Eternal God) is the Messenger of the Lord in the OT:

It is quite astonishing to discover that Jesus Christ appears not only in the prophecies and typifications within the Old Testament but He also actually makes real pre-incarnate physical appearances in the Old Testament, as well. Many of these appearances are under the title of the "Angel of the Lord" in the KJV. Yet, we clearly know that Jesus is not a created angel or being but He is God Almighty Himself (or the second person in the Godhead).

Anyways, please take the time to look up the origin of the word "angel" at etymonline. While you are there, you will discover that it can also be defined as "messenger".

Online Etymology Dictionary

In other words, Jesus is the Messenger of the Lord in the Old Testament!

Now, where does our Lord Jesus appear as a messenger in the Old Testament?

1. The Story of Hagar -

Genesis 16:7-13

The angel of the LORD promised to do something that only God can do (see v.10). Hagar knew that it was the Lord who spoke to her (v. 13) and she identified the angel of the LORD as God: "Thou God seest me" (v.13).

Genesis 21:17-20

The angel of the Lord promised to do something only God can do (see v.18). This angel is identified as God (v.19).

2. The Story of Abraham & Sarah -

Genesis 18:1-33

Although the title of the "angel of the Lord" is not used here, it is clear within this chapter that is Jesus Christ. First, "the Lord appeared unto him (i.e. Abraham)" (v. 1) followed by the immediate appearance of three men (v. 2). Abraham and Sarah both call him Lord, as well (v. 3) (v. 12). The Lord also knew Sarah had laughed at God's promise when she was not present (v. 15).

3. The Story of Abraham & Isaac -

Genesis 22:15-18

The angel of the Lord is speaking (verses 15-16) and yet verse 16 makes it clear that it is God who is speaking ("saith the LORD")! In verses 17-18 the angel of the Lord promises to do what only God can do.

4. The Story of Jacob -

Genesis 31:11-13

The angel of God (v.11) identifies Himself as God: "I am the God of Bethel" (v.13).

Genesis 32:24-32

Jacob wrestles with a man who he later identifies the place with the name "Peniel", which means he had seen God face to face (v. 30).

5. The Story of Joseph -

Genesis 48:14-16

When Jacob was blessing Joseph and his sons he mentions :The Angel which redeemed me from all evil" (v. 16). Now, last time I checked, but angels do not redeem anyone. They are simply guardians.

6. The Story of Moses -

Exodus 3:2-7

The angel of the Lord appeared to Moses out of the midst of a burning bush and identified Himself as God (verses 4 and 6) and as Lord (verses 4 and 7). See also Acts 7:30-32 where the angel of the Lord is identified as the Lord God.

Exodus 14:19-21

The angel of God does what only God can do (verses 19-20) and is identified with the glorious manifestation of God in the pillar of the cloud (verses 19-20). In verse 21 this angel is identified as "the LORD".

Exodus 23:20-23

This passage makes it clear that the Lord’s angel is much more than a mere angel; this angel is closely identified with God: Lord’s "name is in Him" (v.21, "name" referring to Lord's nature and character) and God’s people must "obey His voice" (v.21). Indeed, He has the authority to "pardon your transgressions" or not to pardon them, and who can forgive sins but God alone? Notice that the angel is distinct from God and sent by God. The LORD said, "Behold, I send an angel before thee." We are reminded of New Testament parallels as the Son was distinct from the Father and sent by the Father (John 3:17; etc.) and yet equal to the Father (John 5:18) (John 10:30).

7. The Story of Balaam -

Numbers 22:20-35

Now in the story of Balaam, we begin with God speaking directly to Balaam, then a transition from God to "angel of the Lord" So guess who was standing before Balaam? None other than Jesus Christ. The "angel of the LORD" is used many times in verses 23-26, and verses 31-35 and the LORD in verses 28-31. Then continuing in Chapter 23 God meets Balaam in verse 4 and the LORD is mentioned in verses 5 and 16. These titles are being used interchangeably.

8. The Story of Joshua -

Joshua 5:13-15

Again, although the "Angel of the Lord" is not mentioned here, Jesus did appear to Joshua in the form of a man. This man was worshiped by Joshua (v. 14) and this man declared that Joshua was standing on Holy ground (v. 15).

9. The Beginning Story of the Judges -

Judges 2:1-3

The angel of Lord says things that only God could say. God is the One who brought them into the land which He swore to give unto their fathers (v.1). God is the One who promised to never break His covenant (v.1).

10. The Story of Gideon -

Judges 6:11-24

As you follow this passage, pay close attention to who is speaking to Gideon: in verse 12 the angel of the Lord is speaking; in verse 14 the Lord is speaking; in verse 16 the Lord is speaking; in verse 20 the angel of God is speaking. Lord and the angel of Lord are one and the same.

11. The Story of Samson's Birth -

Judges 13:3-23

Note especially verses 17-18. Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, "What is Thy Name?" (v.17) and the angel of the Lord said, "Why asketh thou thus after My Name, seeing it is secret?" The word "secret" may be translated "wonderful." It is the same Hebrew word found in Isaiah 9:6 – "His Name shall be called wonderful." In Isaiah 9:6 the term is used as a name of Christ who is also called "the Mighty God." The fact that the Lord's angel was God was certainly known by Manoah. After the angel of the Lord appeared to him Manoah said, "We have seen God!" (v.22).

Conclusion:

The Angel of the Lord is also mentioned in the story of David, Isaiah, the Psalms, and Zechariah. So it is amazing to see how Jesus Christ being our eternal God was always present in the past, even revealing Himself within the sacred Scriptures of the Old Testament, too.

Side Note:

Oh, and for those of you who stand by their trusty KJV, like myself: Well, "Angel of the Lord" is an accurate description or title for Jesus in the Old Testament as stated in the KJV (King James Version), too. How so?

Now, while Jesus was NOT an actual created being like an angel or anything silly like that, Jesus did have to hide His glory as God (who is spirit and who is eternal and uncreated). For just looking at the face of God would kill a flesh and blood human being (as Scripture says).

So Jesus put on an empty soulless shell of a body that comes from angels. Think of it like an angel suit. Jesus did not possess an angel in existence (who had a soul). No, no,no. Nor did Jesus create a new sentient being so as to co-mingle his mind with. Certainly not! Jesus is eternally God! Jesus's mind is His own! Jesus is the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity (Who is eternal and spirit and uncreated). Jesus merely put on the empty soul-less spiritual body of an angel to hide His glory (Sort of like putting on a cloak).

Anyways, God hiding His glorious presence is not a new thing in Scripture. God was within the pillar of fire by night and the pillar of cloud by day.


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[Bible Highlighter]

The Godhead or the Trinity:

The Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

Here are a couple of quick points:

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).

The Trinity is told to us in one verse.

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus has the ability as God to live inside your heart:

But when it pleased God…to reveal His Son in me.” (Galatians 1:15-16).
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10).
“I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.” (Galatians 2:20).
"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith.” (Ephesians 3:17).
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:20).
"Christ in you, the hope of glory.” (Colossians 1:27).
When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed.” (2 Thessalonians 1:10).


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[Dartman]

All comes from a source, there has to be a source,

Of course there is a source. The source of Scripture is Jehovah. The source of all other written works are man. Jesus warned against "teaching as doctrine, the commandments of men". I am utterly convinced he was specifically discussing the Talmud.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith.” (Ephesians 3:17).

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:20).

In the Passover, the Israelites put the blood of the Lamb on the doorposts. We as believers have to put the blood of Jesus on the doorposts of our hearts.


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[Dartman]

Obviously I disagree. NOWHERE in the Torah it is stated that the Mosaic Law is temporary. Actually, it states the opposite.

Deut 18:15-19 Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 according to all that thou desiredst of Jehovah thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

For a prophet to be "like unto Moses", they have to be a Law giver.... Jesus was.

Daniel 9 laid out the timeline, and the details. From the decree to rebuild Jerusalem's walls and streets, and temple unto Messiah the Prince was 483 years. Jesus preached for 3 1/2 years to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". The apostles then preached for another 3 1/2 years to Israel, before Cornelius.
After that, Israel was in the process of being rooted out of their land, and scattered to the nations, and a time of tribulation such as no other, which we still see today.
We are getting close to the "time of the Gentiles" being fulfilled.
Jesus will return, and conquer this planet, rescuing Israel from the destruction described in the first 3 verses of Zech 14. Jesus will then command that Israel be regathered (Isa 66:20) and then before Israel can actually enter the land, they will be purged (Eze 20:33-38, Zech 13:8,9)
And thus, all Israel shall be saved (Rom 11:25-27)

 

[Dartman]

The Godhead or the Trinity:

The Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

Yes, the Bible DOES teach there is one God. AND that Jesus is a man, mediating between that one God, and all other men.
Your assertions below, however, are either irrelevant to the trinity, or utterly bogus



#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun... Yep, not uncommon in Hebrew.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8)... Nope, God was talking to the angels.
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20)... completely bogus. There is no "Plurality of God" in these verses.
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14)... Jesus arriving in heaven. This proves Jesus is NOT God, God is the ancient of days. (John 14:16)...The promise of God's spirit being given, which happened on the day of Pentecost. This doesn't make ANY "trinitarian" point.
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)... More bogus. This is God's power being given to Jesus. This doesn't make ANY "trinitarian" point.
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42)... ABSOLUTELY!! AND, the fact that Jesus SUBMITTED his will to his God's will ... Which works AGAINST the whole "co-equal" nonsense of the trinity!
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) ... LOL ...these are prophecies!!
(Matthew 11:27) .. are you sure you gave the right reference? This has nothing to do with your point.(John 17:24)... This is just a part of Jesus praying to HIS GOD!!! This works totally against the trinity!

The Trinity is told to us in one verse.

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7)....

Awesome!! This is a PERFECT example of just how desperate trinitarians are to find SOMETHING in the Scriptures to MAYBE sound like the trinity!!!
This verse is so obviously spurious, modern translations don't even include it!!!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, the Bible DOES teach there is one God. AND that Jesus is a man, mediating between that one God, and all other men.
Your assertions below, however, are either irrelevant to the trinity, or utterly bogus



#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun... Yep, not uncommon in Hebrew.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8)... Nope, God was talking to the angels.
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20)... completely bogus. There is no "Plurality of God" in these verses.
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14)... Jesus arriving in heaven. This proves Jesus is NOT God, God is the ancient of days. (John 14:16)...The promise of God's spirit being given, which happened on the day of Pentecost. This doesn't make ANY "trinitarian" point.
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)... More bogus. This is God's power being given to Jesus. This doesn't make ANY "trinitarian" point.
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42)... ABSOLUTELY!! AND, the fact that Jesus SUBMITTED his will to his God's will ... Which works AGAINST the whole "co-equal" nonsense of the trinity!
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) ... LOL ...these are prophecies!!
(Matthew 11:27) .. are you sure you gave the right reference? This has nothing to do with your point.(John 17:24)... This is just a part of Jesus praying to HIS GOD!!! This works totally against the trinity!
Awesome!! This is a PERFECT example of just how desperate trinitarians are to find SOMETHING in the Scriptures to MAYBE sound like the trinity!!!
This verse is so obviously spurious, modern translations don't even include it!!!

There is no point in replying. You are just going to mindlessly hit the disagree button until it is broke. No matter what I show you with Scripture, you see that as a means to prove your personal belief about God. Those who have ears to hear, let him hear. I have provided more than enough ample evidence with Scripture that Jesus is God and that the Trinity is true. I have also answered your so called problem passages with what Scripture says, as well.


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