Does God Turn Away People Who Want to be Saved?

[jimmyjimmy]

Yes, the Bible does say in Hebrews 12:6, "For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives" and in James 4:8, "Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded."

Written to and about believers.

 

[DeaconDean]

Written to and about believers.

You know, its really funny that if you consider the NT as a whole.

The Gospels are just that "the Good News".

Acts is ancient church history.

After the first four books of the New Testament, there is absolutely nothing written to unbelievers.

Romans through Revelation was written to "Christians".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

After the first four books of the New Testament, there is absolutely nothing written to unbelievers.

One of the most misused verses in the Bible is Revelation 3:20: Behold, I stand at the door and If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

It was written to a church. It wasn't an announcement to unbelievers. An unbeliever's problem is NOT that he hasn't "asked Jesus into his heart". It's that he is a sinner in rebellion against his Creator. He needs to believe in Christ and repent.

 

[DeaconDean]

One of the most misused verses in the Bible is Revelation 3:20: Behold, I stand at the door and If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

It was written to a church. It wasn't an announcement to unbelievers. An unbeliever's problem is NOT that he hasn't "asked Jesus into his heart". It's that he is a sinner in rebellion against his Creator. He needs to believe in Christ and repent.

This is not up for debate, I post it here only for information's sake:

Popular in Dispensational theology is the teaching that the 7 letters to the churches also represent the 7 "dispensational" time frames of the church in the NT.

Also, if you read it closely, the Church at Laodicea appears to have been in a "backslidden" state.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

Yes. I have too. Knowing my own heart and biblical truth, I have an explanation for that, but I'm interested in your opinion on this subject.

I don't know the details of how those atheists approached God and their attitude, so I can only speculate. Pharisees and Sadducees come to mind as examples of people who sought God but failed since they did not have a repentant heart. What would be your explanation?

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. (Matthew 3:7-8)

My sacrifice, O God, is a contrite spirit;
a contrite, humbled heart, O God, you will not scorn. (Psalm 51:17)

 

[Monk Brendan]

So here is your question -- where do we locate purgatory in the Bible.

Perhaps the best place to start is with the most overt reference to a “Purgatory” of sorts in the Old Testament. I say a “Purgatory of sorts” because Purgatory is a teaching fully revealed in the New Testament and defined by the Catholic Church. The Old Testament people of God would not have called it “Purgatory,” but they did clearly believe that the sins of the dead could be atoned for by the living as I will now prove. This is a constitutive element of what Catholics call “Purgatory.”

In II Maccabees 12:39-46, (Yes, you have to either use a Catholic Bible, or the KJV with the Apocrypha) we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection... and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”

There are usually two immediate objections to the use of this text when talking with Protestants. First, they will dismiss any evidence presented therein because they do not accept the inspiration of Maccabees. And second, they will claim these men in Maccabees committed the sin of idolatry, which would be a mortal sin in Catholic theology. According to the Catholic Church, they would be in Hell where there is no possibility of atonement. Thus, and ironically so, they will say, Purgatory must be eliminated as a possible interpretation of this text if you’re Catholic.

Rejecting the inspiration and canonicity of II Maccabees does not negate its historical value. Maccabees aids us in knowing, purely from an historical perspective at the very least, the Jews believed in praying and making atonement for the dead shortly before the advent of Christ. This is the faith in which Jesus and the apostles were raised. And it is in this context Jesus declares in the New Testament:

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come (Matthew 12:32, emphasis added).

This declaration of our Lord implies there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life to a people who already believed it. If Jesus wanted to condemn this teaching commonly taught in Israel, he was not doing a very good job of it according to St. Matthew’s Gospel.

The next objection presents a more complex problem. The punishment for mortal sin is, in fact, definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed in Hell according to Catholic teaching (see CCC 1030). But it is a non-sequitur to conclude from this teaching that II Maccabees could not be referring to a type of Purgatory.

First of all, a careful reading of the text reveals the sin of these men to be carrying small amulets “or sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia” under their tunics as they were going in to battle. This would be closer to a Christian baseball player believing there is some kind of power in his performing superstitious rituals before going to bat than it would be to the mortal sin of idolatry. This was, most likely, a venial sin for them. But even if what they did would have been objectively grave matter, good Jews in ancient times—just like good Catholics today—believed they should always pray for the souls of those who have died “for thou [O Lord], thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men” (II Chr. 6:30). God alone knows the degree of culpability of these “sinners.” Moreover, some or all of them may have repented before they died. Both Jews and Catholic Christians always retain hope for the salvation of the deceased this side of heaven; thus, we always pray for those who have died.

In Matthew 5:24-25, Jesus is even more explicit about Purgatory.

Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26).

For Catholics, Tertullian for example, in De Anima 58, written in ca. AD 208, this teaching is parabolic, using the well-known example of “prison” and the necessary penitence it represents, as a metaphor for Purgatorial suffering that will be required for lesser transgressions, represented by the “kodrantes” or “penny” of verse 26. But for many Protestants, our Lord is here giving simple instructions to his followers concerning this life exclusively. This has nothing to do with Purgatory.

This traditional Protestant interpretation is very weak contextually. These verses are found in the midst of the famous “Sermon on the Mount,” where our Lord teaches about heaven (vs. 20), hell (vs. 29-30), and both mortal (vs. 22) and venial sins (vs. 19), in a context that presents “the Kingdom of Heaven” as the ultimate goal (see verses 3-12). Our Lord goes on to say if you do not love your enemies, “what reward have you” (verse 46)? And he makes very clear these “rewards” are not of this world. They are “rewards from your Father who is in heaven” (6:1) or “treasures in heaven” (6:19).

Further, as St. John points out in John 20:31, all Scripture is written “that believing, you may have [eternal] life in his name.” Scripture must always be viewed in the context of our full realization of the divine life in the world to come. Our present life is presented “as a vapor which appears for a little while, and afterwards shall vanish away” (James 1:17). It would seem odd to see the deeper and even “other worldly” emphasis throughout the Sermon of the Mount, excepting these two verses.

When we add to this the fact that the Greek word for prison, phulake, is the same word used by St. Peter, in I Peter 3:19, to describe the “holding place” into which Jesus descended after his death to liberate the detained spirits of Old Testament believers, the Catholic position makes even more sense. Phulake is demonstrably used in the New Testament to refer to a temporary holding place and not exclusively in this life.

The Plainest Text

I Corinthians 3:11-15 may well be the most straightforward text in all of Sacred Scripture when it comes to Purgatory:

For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

No Christian sect I know of even attempts to deny this text speaks of the judgment of God where the works of the faithful will be tested after death. It says our works will go through “fire,” figuratively speaking. In Scripture, “fire” is used metaphorically in two ways: as a purifying agent (Mal. 3:2-3; Matt. 3:11; Mark 9:49); and as that which consumes (Matt. 3:12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8). So it is a fitting symbol here for God’s judgment. Some of the “works” represented are being burned up and some are being purified. These works survive or burn according to their essential “quality” (Gr. hopoiov - of what sort).

What is being referred to cannot be heaven because there are imperfections that need to be “burned up” (see again, Rev. 21:27, Hab. 1:13). It cannot be hell because souls are being saved. So what is it? The Protestant calls it “the Judgment” and we Catholics agree. We Catholics simply specify the part of the judgment of the saved where imperfections are purged as “Purgatory.”

Objection!

The Protestant respondent will immediately spotlight the fact that there is no mention, at least explicitly, of “the cleansing of sin” anywhere in the text. There is only the testing of works. The focus is on the rewards believers will receive for their service, not on how their character is cleansed from sin or imperfection. And the believers here watch their works go through the fire, but they escape it!

First, what are sins, but bad or wicked works (see Matthew 7:21-23, John 8:40, Galatians 5:19-21)? If these “works” do not represent sins and imperfections, why would they need to be eliminated? Second, it is impossible for a “work” to be cleansed apart from the human being who performed it. We are, in a certain sense, what we do when it comes to our moral choices. There is no such thing as a “work” floating around somewhere detached from a human being that could be cleansed apart from that human being. The idea of works being separate from persons does not make sense.

Most importantly, however, this idea of “works” being “burned up” apart from the soul that performed the work contradicts the text itself. The text does say the works will be tested by fire, but “if the work survives... he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss.” And, “he will be saved, but only as through fire” (Gr. dia puros). The truth is: both the works of the individual and the individual will go through the cleansing “fire” described by St. Paul in order that “he” might finally be saved and enter into the joy of the Lord. Sounds an awful lot like Purgatory, at least to me.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Jesus said they cannot come unless the father draws them. No where does Jesus say it's entirely up to you. Jesus actually says it is a work of the Holy Spirit and you do not have control over that.

The Bible says that many are called but few are chosen it does not say many are called and a few choose God.

ALL humans have free will, be they genius of moron, be they sinner of saint. To dispute that is an error of the worst sort. God has chosen us all, whether you believe it or not. If you don't believe it, that is YOUR mistake, and having warned you about that, then if you get caught up in that error and end up in hell for your lack of charity--thinking that if God ELECTS, then it is up to HIM to get them to heaven--then that's your sin, your problem, and your stay in hell.

praying for you

 

[Monk Brendan]

...If you are Calvinist, it is God who initiates and therefore does the choosing. If you are Arminian, you do the choosing yourself. This is one of the great debates of the Christian Church and it is not easily solved. The bottom line is: are you saved? Did you choose Christ as your Saviour? Once that is resolved in you, the rest is just academic.

There is another whole school of theology that most Protestants are missing. That is the theology--no, the TRUE understanding--of the Pre-Reformation Churches, in which God has given all people free will, and ELECTED all, but you have to CHOOSE to cooperate with God, which means accepting the WORK that Jesus did for you on the Cross; along with His time in hell, and the WORK he did there; plus His WORK after His resurrection; plus His WORK that He does in heaven as chief intercessor before the Father. And then He looks at all of the things you have done on earth, besides the state of your soul, and HE makes the judgment as to whether you belong in heaven or not.

He does NOT discount any sins you have committed AFTER you got "saved." You have to admit your sins, every day, and live in a life of repentance every day, all day. That doesn't mean you can't be happy or joyous, or enjoy your birthday, but it does mean that God looks not just at the date you get "saved," but at your heart afterwards, to the point you stand before the Throne, and He will judge you.

Be glad it's not me. If it was up to me, I would throw all Calvinists into the deepest, darkest pit of the catechumenate most Protestants don't want to admit to, or call Purgatory and sentence you to ten thousand years. You would still get to heaven, but it would take a while. ;-)

 

[Mountainmanbob]

if you get caught up in that error and end up in hell for your lack of charity--thinking that if God ELECTS, then it is up to HIM to get them to heaven--then that's your sin, your problem, and your stay in hell.

I do not see the difference between Arminianism and Calvinism thinking as being a Salvation issue but, apparently you do?

The issue has been debated for hundreds and hundreds of years by (Born Again believers) in both Camps.

M-Bob

 

[Monk Brendan]

Romans chapter 8 and 9
explains it differently.

This? "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Rom 8:26-28)

Or this? "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 8:37-39)

Romans 9 is not relevant, as it speaks of the JEWS, not Christians.

I am the first to agree that Paul especially in Romans speaks about being CALLED a lot. But ALL are called, ALL are elect.

Jesus said, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16) I am part of the whosoever.

Likewise, He said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

I AM a man--you will grant me that--but better yet, call me a human. We will both agree that Jesus was lifted up on the Cross, right? Then what part of ALL doesn't mean me? Or any other Catholic, or for that matter, any Jew or Hindu, Muslim, Jain, Buddhist, or follower of Shinto?

 

[Monk Brendan]

I do not see the difference between Arminianism and Calvinism thinking as being a Salvation issue but, apparently you do?

The issue has been debated for hundreds and hundreds of years by (Born Again believers) in both Camps.

I am talking about SALVATION! I am not saying Calvinists cannot be saved, nor Arminians. What I am saying is that 1.) YOU are NOT called to be my judge, or anyone else's. 2.)You may have argued for hundreds of years, but the Church Fathers SETTLED these matters THOUSANDS of years ago, and ALL of the Pre-Reformation Churches hold to what I am talking about, but you, obviously don't.

Pay ATTENTION! God doesn't give a pink rat's behind about what church you attend, save that that church should preach the TRUTH, and not some man's opinion of what Scripture said, when he himself was not a priest, deacon, bishop or monk.

 

[bling]

Many are called, few are chosen.

So we can agree not everyone who is called goes?

Could the “chosen” also be those who accept and if not why not?

Could God have declared prior to the start of our time to choose those who would accept His Charity?

Here again, of the untold number of people who were preached to in Acts 13:48, who responded?

I know the answer, but I also know that no matter what I post, your gonna say they resisted of their own "free-will".

“…all who were appointed for eternal life believed” Could also mean God at the beginning of time appointed (chose/declared/elected) all those that will believe would be given eternal life.

And I will still say that not one single sinner can walk down the road and of their own "free-will" all of a sudden stop and say I'll attend church, I'll stop sinning, I'll accept and believe of my own volition.

Never suggest anything like that, but the sinner tired of waring against God can just be willing to give up (this is not “stop sinning on his own”), but just be humbly willing to accept from his enemy pure sacrificial charity.

Yes, the sinner is humbly willing to accept pure charity, but there is no “and” with that, so is correctly accepting pure charity “work”, by the biblical definition of “work” or is it more the opposite of earnings from working?

Given the choice of living in sin and all that it entails, verses living as God wants, people would rather live in sin.

And again, I have supplied the Greek to support Jn. 6:44.

If you have an issue with it, take it up with John when you see him one day. Or the authors behind the Greek Lexicon
[/QUOTE]

OK, sin has at least perceived pleasures for a season, but all sinners sometime in their life are brought to their senses by their actions (doing bad stuff to others at least for a while will burden their conscience). They do not have the power to change, but can accept God’s Loving power.

No problem with John 6:44 as I state above.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There is another whole school of theology that most Protestants are missing. That is the theology--no, the TRUE understanding--of the Pre-Reformation Churches, in which God has given all people free will, and ELECTED all, but you have to CHOOSE to cooperate with God, which means accepting the WORK that Jesus did for you on the Cross; along with His time in hell, and the WORK he did there; plus His WORK after His resurrection; plus His WORK that He does in heaven as chief intercessor before the Father. And then He looks at all of the things you have done on earth, besides the state of your soul, and HE makes the judgment as to whether you belong in heaven or not.

He does NOT discount any sins you have committed AFTER you got "saved." You have to admit your sins, every day, and live in a life of repentance every day, all day. That doesn't mean you can't be happy or joyous, or enjoy your birthday, but it does mean that God looks not just at the date you get "saved," but at your heart afterwards, to the point you stand before the Throne, and He will judge you.

Be glad it's not me. If it was up to me, I would throw all Calvinists into the deepest, darkest pit of the catechumenate most Protestants don't want to admit to, or call Purgatory and sentence you to ten thousand years. You would still get to heaven, but it would take a while. ;-)

If you have never read John Calvin's Institutes then I would say that you might not understand his position on Christian faith at all. His own teaching in that book is quite different from those ones called Calvinists who came after him. So to tar and feather all those who profess Calvinism is a judgment you really cannot make.

There is also a difference between Justification and Sanctification, but then Justification by Faith has been a contentious issue in the Catholic Church since Martin Luther's time. I don't intend to go into that debate because it is a bottomless and unresolvable vortex.

What I do know of Catholic theology is that a Catholic believer cannot have an assurance of salvation because it will depend on the final Judgment for him where his good deeds and sins will be weighed against each other and if his good deeds weigh more than his sins, he will make it. This is called performance Christianity, because it is based on the individual's performance rather than on any promise in God's Word.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

1 -- YOU are NOT called to be my judge, or anyone else's.

2 -- You may have argued for hundreds of years,

3 -- Pay ATTENTION! God doesn't give a pink rat's behind about what church you attend

4 -- when he himself was not a priest, deacon, bishop or monk.

Regarding your above

1 -- Never Thought or Said that I was.
Are you a mind reader?

2 -- Couldn't have been me
I'm only 66 years old.

3-- Where did that come from?

4 -- It seems you didn't mention Pastors there. I prefer ones such as John MacArthur or RC Sproul thank you. Both have written Study Bibles and Preached the Word of God for over 50 years.

M-Bob

 

[DeaconDean]

So we can agree not everyone who is called goes?

Could the “chosen” also be those who accept and if not why not?

Could God have declared prior to the start of our time to choose those who would accept His Charity?



“…all who were appointed for eternal life believed” Could also mean God at the beginning of time appointed (chose/declared/elected) all those that will believe would be given eternal life.





Never suggest anything like that, but the sinner tired of waring against God can just be willing to give up (this is not “stop sinning on his own”), but just be humbly willing to accept from his enemy pure sacrificial charity.

Yes, the sinner is humbly willing to accept pure charity, but there is no “and” with that, so is correctly accepting pure charity “work”, by the biblical definition of “work” or is it more the opposite of earnings from working?





If you have an issue with it, take it up with John when you see him one day. Or the authors behind the Greek Lexicon

OK, sin has at least perceived pleasures for a season, but all sinners sometime in their life are brought to their senses by their actions (doing bad stuff to others at least for a while will burden their conscience). They do not have the power to change, but can accept God’s Loving power.

No problem with John 6:44 as I state above.[/QUOTE]

The challenge to you is to prove that in Jn. 6:44, this is a "universal" call to all mankind.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[bling]

The challenge to you is to prove that in Jn. 6:44, this is a "universal" call to all mankind.

God Bless

Till all are one.

No you have to “proof” God’s call goes out to just a few people and every one of those called accepts the invitation.

The banquet Parables show us everyone does not accept the invitation and yet everyone at the banquet was invited (called) to the banquet.

Do you believe God has to kidnap people to come to His banquet?

There are all the who so ever passages, there is the idea of everyone and the world suggest everyone is called.

God’s Love would mean God would not (arbitrarily) exclude anyone (that would not be fair and just on God’s part), but God will not hold a gun to your head to get you to accept (that would not be Loving on God’s part nor would it convey Love to the person being kidnapped).

 

[Mountainmanbob]

[/QUOTE]
God’s Love would mean God would not (arbitrarily) exclude anyone (that would not be fair and just on God’s part),
[/QUOTE]

I would be careful saying what is fair on God's part.

For God said can he not make one for raft and one to have mercy on?
Romans 8:9

M-Bob

 

[bling]

God’s Love would mean God would not (arbitrarily) exclude anyone (that would not be fair and just on God’s part),


I would be careful saying what is fair on God's part.

For God said can he not make one for raft and one to have mercy on?
Romans 8:9

M-Bob

I think you are trying to talk about Ro. 9: 22-23?

If you want to discuss the interpretation of Ro. 9, OK, but it takes some explaining, remember: Ro.9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

Under a totally just law the Judge can be totally fair and just.

You are picking verses out of context.

 

[sdowney717]

I think you are trying to talk about Ro. 9: 22-23?

If you want to discuss the interpretation of Ro. 9, OK, but it takes some explaining, remember: Ro.9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

Under a totally just law the Judge can be totally fair and just.

You are picking verses out of context.

God is not unjust, since all have sinned and come short, God is perfectly just to destroy them in all in hell, if He wishes.
That is whole point of Paul in Romans 9, comparing the mercy God shows to some is not unjust compared to the justice God shows to some by sending them to hell. Doesn't God have the right to choose what He will do since all have sinned?

Bling, I think you think if God does not show mercy to all, God is unjust, that is not what the scriptures teach us. You may think that is arbitrary, perhaps you should remove yourself from the mindset of a governmental democracy to one of a King.

Romans 9
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory are those He has called from jews and gentiles to obtain salvation.

While the vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction, God forms them both to become what they become. The vessels of wrath, are by their nature being formed as they are, as natural man, vessels of wrath, they sin and keep on sinning against God, and don't do anything good, but they sure know how to do evil and do it.

Romans 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

 

[sdowney717]

No you have to “proof” God’s call goes out to just a few people and every one of those called accepts the invitation.

The banquet Parables show us everyone does not accept the invitation and yet everyone at the banquet was invited (called) to the banquet.

Do you believe God has to kidnap people to come to His banquet?

There are all the who so ever passages, there is the idea of everyone and the world suggest everyone is called.

God’s Love would mean God would not (arbitrarily) exclude anyone (that would not be fair and just on God’s part), but God will not hold a gun to your head to get you to accept (that would not be Loving on God’s part nor would it convey Love to the person being kidnapped).

About that call going out, verse 24, 'even us whom He called'
That 'us' called, are those God has prepared beforehand to obtain the glory of salvation in Christ.

Romans 9
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory are those He has called from jews and gentiles to obtain salvation.

While the vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction, they were not called to obtain salvation and they then obtain salvation.
All the called are saved and they do obtain salvation while none of the other obtain salvation but they do obtain destruction being 'vessels of wrath'.

'THE CALLED' are those He foreknew and so HE predestined them to be saved. It is as certain as God saying 'let there be light, and it was so'.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.