Are the OT saints part of the body of Christ?

[Jwlickliter]

Jesus is the Creator. All things were made through Him.
Spirits do not experience time, so there are no "timing"
problems with God.
See also: Answered Prayer

This question for the thread was a great one to ask.

This answer, well answered it all.

 

[kepha31]

Here's my $.02
There were no saints in heaven until Jesus opened it with His Ascension. Before that they were waiting in Paradise, which is not heaven. The Patriarchs are in Church Triumphant (heaven) which is part of the Body of Christ. Here on earth we are called Church Militant.

 

[1stcenturylady]

There is a first resurrection, for a limited amount of people. This resurrection takes place a thousand years before what we may term the general resurrection of the dead( rev20:4&5)
It's good to read rev20:11-15&rev21:1-5 as a continuance, forget the chapter changing.
On the last day of this present earth, the dead will rise and be judged. Those who's names are written in the lambs book of life live in the new heaven, the new Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven from God.
For the old heaven and the old earth pass away, and the new earth and the new heaven comes, and there will be no more death, crying, mourning or pain, for God will dwell with his children in the new Jerusalem.
Hence:
For my father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day(the last day of this present earth) john5:39

Yes, I know there are two resurrections at Christ's coming. Who do you believe is in the second resurrection? Curious if we see the same thing.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yes, I know there are two resurrections at Christ's coming. Who do you believe is in the second resurrection? Curious if we see the same thing.

The first resurrection is a thousand years before the general resurrection of the dead. The first is for a limited people who come out of the great tribulation.
The second resurrection is for everyone else, those whos names are written in the lambs book of life and those who aren't( rev20:11-15)

 

[stuart lawrence]

Among them are hymaneus and philetus who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place and they destroy the faith of some
2tim2:17&18

God will dwell with his people in the new heaven, the new Jerusalem, not before( second resurrection)

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

Thank you for the response, although I only see how this gives the OT no excuse not to believe that there is a creator. How are the OT saints made perfect without Christ?

If you think about it , we believe Christ after He ressurected as proof to us , they believed Messiah even before He ressurected , for me it takes more faith to believe something that did not happen yet than something alredy happend .

 

[claninja]

If you think about it , we believe Christ after He ressurected as proof to us , they believed Messiah even before He ressurected , for me it takes more faith to believe something that did not happen yet than something alredy happend .

Thanks! That's very true!

 

[Phantasman]

Jesus did not come to start his own religion, but was born a Jew, raised a Jew, became a Jewish rabbi, had Jewish disciples, is the Jewish Messiah, fulfilled Jewish prophecy, will return as the Lion of Judah, and came to bring fullness to Judaism. At its origin, Christianity was a sect of Judaism. For roughly the first 7-15 years after Messiah's resurrection up until in inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10, all Christians were Torah observant Jews. There is absolutely nothing that says that Jews need to stop being Jews in order to become Christians, and in fact they faced the opposite issue in Acts 15, where they were discussing whether Gentiles had to become Jews in order to be Christians. It is just as false that Gentiles need to become Jews in order to be Christians as it is that Jews need to become Gentiles in order to become Christians.



In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they worshiped God in vain because they taught as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so what the Pharisees were teaching as the Mosaic Law was actually their own traditions, and this was a major source of conflict between them and Jesus. It is critically important to make this distinction in order to correctly understand what is being said about the laws of men and what is being said about the laws of God because Jesus never spoke against the Judaism that was instructed by God, only against what the Pharisees were teaching.

According to John 5:46, Jesus said that Moses wrote about him, according to Luke 24:27, Jesus began with Moses and the Prophets interpreting to them all the things in Scriptures concerning himself, according to Hebrews 10:7, the totality of the scroll is written about Jesus, and according to Romans 10:4, a relationship with Jesus is the goal of the Law for all who have faith. The Law is all about Messiah and about how to have a relationship with Him based on faith and love, but the Law can be outwardly obeyed without being inwardly focused on growing in a relationship with God, which is completely missing the whole point of obeying the Law, and why Israel failed to obtain righteousness (Romans 9:30-32), and why Paul considered that to be rubbish (Philippians 3:8).

Everything that is taught in the NT is dependant on what was taught in the OT. In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything that Paul said against OT Scripture to see if what he said was true. The NT authors quoted or alluded to the OT thousands of times in order to establish that it supported everything they said and to show that they did not depart from it. The Law is the way (Deuteronomy 8:6, Jeremiah 6:16-19, Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 30:15-20, Proverbs 3:18, Matthew 19:17), Messiah is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), the Law is God's Word, and Messiah is God's word made flesh, so there is no separating following one from following the other. Jews teaching obedience to the Torah, but they don't teach to follow the Messiah, Gentile believers teach to follow the Messiah, but don't teach obedience to God's Torah, so both have the truth, but both only understand half of it.

Sorry. Not convinced. The Jews (Judaism) killed Jesus. The Jews even today do not believe ot follow Christ. And yes, Christ did bring a new religion. It's called Christianity, which teaches to accept the Chrism of Spirit to gain knowledge of Truth from Heaven. The Jews are not Christians. But many Jews have become Christians, accepting the Chrism.

The Jews believe they follow God. Christians follow the Son who is (truth from) God. They do not mix, as John 8 clearly explains.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The first resurrection is a thousand years before the general resurrection of the dead. The first is for a limited people who come out of the great tribulation.
The second resurrection is for everyone else, those whos names are written in the lambs book of life and those who aren't( rev20:11-15)

Yes, we agree, but I think it will be for all martyrs, even Stephen who was the first.

 

[Devin P]

The scriptures never explicitly state that the OT saints are part of the body of Christ. The OT saints received earthly physical promises (i.e. physical promised land of Israel) under the old covenant Hebrews 11:9, but did not receive the heavenly promises: Hebrews 11:13,16,39.

Paul makes it clear that the spiritual promises made by God were intended for Abraham and his offspring (who is Christ), not offsprings Galatians 3:16. As we (the body of Christ) are one flesh with Christ Ephesians 5:19-21, we belong to Christ, and are therefore Abraham's seed and are heirs of the promises Galatians 3:28-29.

If the OT saints cannot be made perfect apart from us (the body of Christ) Hebrews 11:40, how are they to inherit the promises through Christ without being part of the body of Christ?

Paul states "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29. Abraham's seed is an heir to Christ, whether physical or spiritual.

 

[claninja]

Hi Marilyn, glad you found it

1. What did God promise the OT saints?

Salvation through Christ

2. What has God promised the Body of Christ?

Salvation through Christ

 

[Aseyesee]

The scriptures never explicitly state that the OT saints are part of the body of Christ. The OT saints received earthly physical promises (i.e. physical promised land of Israel) under the old covenant Hebrews 11:9, but did not receive the heavenly promises: Hebrews 11:13,16,39.

Paul makes it clear that the spiritual promises made by God were intended for Abraham and his offspring (who is Christ), not offsprings Galatians 3:16. As we (the body of Christ) are one flesh with Christ Ephesians 5:19-21, we belong to Christ, and are therefore Abraham's seed and are heirs of the promises Galatians 3:28-29.

If the OT saints cannot be made perfect apart from us (the body of Christ) Hebrews 11:40, how are they to inherit the promises through Christ without being part of the body of Christ?

The church like the body, or a son, or where the mystery was hid from the beginning, are pictures of something that relate to this process in us, and why Stephen would use the word church for those who were wandering around in the wilderness (who like Abraham was called out, or Jesus who was called out, or for those called out of Babylon).

 

[Open Heart]

So how are they made perfect apart from us (the body of Christ)?

They are made perfect through grace, which would be accomplished through Christ. But the church did not come into existence until Pentecost. These did not know of a Suffering Messiah that would come and die for their sins, and did not place their faith in him. They were never baptized. They are not part of the Church.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn, glad you found it
Salvation through Christ
Salvation through Christ

Hi claninja,

And the scriptures for that? I`m not disputing that they will have salvation & eternal life, but can you show me exactly what God said to them & to us. People throw the word `promises` around and assume it means what they think it means, but really what does God say.

Would appreciate it if you could look into this in a bit more detail.

thank you, Marilyn.

 

[claninja]

These did not know of a Suffering Messiah that would come and die for their sins, and did not place their faith in him.

Genesis 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

According to Paul, the gospel was preached to Abraham
Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
Genesis 22:17-18 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”

The author of Hebrews stated that Moses knew of Christ
Hebrews 11:26 He (Moses) considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward.

Throughout the psalms, David prophecies of Christs suffering

Daniel predicts Christ coming into his kingdom.

Isaiah 53 prophecies the suffering of Christ

If the OT saints were justified by Faith, what/who was their faith in?

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

By the way , didn't Jesus come to Abraham Bosom when he died on cross , and was declaring his victory over death to them for 3 days then He took them to heaven as first fruits completing the first fruits feast? That would make sense with Revelation where there are 24 Elders , 12 would be OT Saints- 12 Tribes and 12 next would be 12 Apostoles from NT , it would also make only pre-trib rapture possible and would actually make sense with other scriptures .

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

Easy! The answer is YES and AMEN! The OT Prophets were members of Christ's Body because they had the Spirit of Christ.

1 Peter 1:10-11

Gotta love God's Word eh? And the Word, the Spirit, and my spirit are all in agreement on this.

 

[Servantleader]

The scriptures never explicitly state that the OT saints are part of the body of Christ. The OT saints received earthly physical promises (i.e. physical promised land of Israel) under the old covenant Hebrews 11:9, but did not receive the heavenly promises: Hebrews 11:13,16,39.

Paul makes it clear that the spiritual promises made by God were intended for Abraham and his offspring (who is Christ), not offsprings Galatians 3:16. As we (the body of Christ) are one flesh with Christ Ephesians 5:19-21, we belong to Christ, and are therefore Abraham's seed and are heirs of the promises Galatians 3:28-29.

If the OT saints cannot be made perfect apart from us (the body of Christ) Hebrews 11:40, how are they to inherit the promises through Christ without being part of the body of Christ?

This is such an insightful post. Thank you for posing the thoughtful question. I think it gets blurry sometimes when we interpret Scripture in the OT an the NT. Nonetheless, I believe that Christ is the fulfillment of the promises of the OT. As we read in Genesis 22:18, the covenant that God made with Abraham is that "all nations/all peoples on earth will be blessed through Abraham's offspring." If we agree that Christ is the offspring that God refers to, I believe we also have to recall that Christ is the one who was, is, and is to come.

In other words, the blood that was shed on Calvary was shed for all before the manifestation of Christ in human form, while Christ was on earth, and after He died and ascended to sit with the Father. Thus I believe that the Christ that the NT saints got to walk with and talk with (though some did not believe) is the same Promise that the OT saints held on to (in faith - because they were not to see the manifestation in this life) and believed in. I say this in the faith that we serve a timeless God who Was, Is, and Is to come.

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

Easy! The answer is YES and AMEN! The OT Prophets were members of Christ's Body because they had the Spirit of Christ.

1 Peter 1:10-11

Gotta love God's Word eh? And the Word, the Spirit, and my spirit are all in agreement on this.

O yea i forgot where these verses were .

 

[Robert76]

The scriptures never explicitly state that the OT saints are part of the body of Christ. The OT saints received earthly physical promises (i.e. physical promised land of Israel) under the old covenant Hebrews 11:9, but did not receive the heavenly promises: Hebrews 11:13,16,39.

Paul makes it clear that the spiritual promises made by God were intended for Abraham and his offspring (who is Christ), not offsprings Galatians 3:16. As we (the body of Christ) are one flesh with Christ Ephesians 5:19-21, we belong to Christ, and are therefore Abraham's seed and are heirs of the promises Galatians 3:28-29.

If the OT saints cannot be made perfect apart from us (the body of Christ) Hebrews 11:40, how are they to inherit the promises through Christ without being part of the body of Christ?

I liked this article that discusses how Charles Spurgeon addressed this question:
Old Testament Saints: Members of the Church