Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
"And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today."Deuteronomy 30:7-8 God's purpose for the tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) revolves around His plan for Israel and does not include a earthly presence for the church. Why? Because God's plan for Israel is unfinished at this point in history. When the role of the church is completed she will be taken as a completed body to heaven in an instant-at the rapture. This will clear the way for a restoration and resumption of progress toward the completion of our Sovereign Lord's plans for His elect nation-Israel.

The Tribulation Focuses on IsraelThe Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10).1 While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age (John 15:18-25; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:10-13), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God. Gerald Stanton explains: The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the "time of the Church's trouble," but the "time of Jacob's trouble." The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.). It concerns "Daniel's people," the coming of "false Messiah," the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom," flight on the "sabbath," the temple and the "holy place," the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve "tribes of the children of Israel," the "son of Moses," "signs" in the heavens, the "covenant" with the Beast, the "sanctuary," the "sacrifice and the oblation" of the temple ritual. These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom. The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.).2

The Church is Absent from the TribulationNot one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2), nor does the New Testament ever speak of the church in relation to the tribulation (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18), except as present in heaven. Such silence speaks loudly and supports the pre-trib position, especially when combined with clear, explicit statements that promise her exemption from that time (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10). Note the clear promise to the church of Revelation 3:10: Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth. If pretribulationism is indeed the teaching of Scripture, then we would expect that passages dealing with the tribulation would consistently make no mention of the church. This is exactly what we find. However, Israel is mentioned often throughout these texts. Dr. Robert Gromacki has studied the New Testament book of Revelation, chapters 4-19, which gives the most detailed overview of the seven-year tribulation in all the Bible. He has shown the following: However, there is a strange silence of the term in chapters 4-19. That fact is especially noteworthy when you contrast that absence with its frequent presence in the first three chapters. One good reason for this phenomenon is the absence of the true church and true evangelical churches in the seven years preceding the Second Coming. The true believers of the church have gone into the presence of Christ in heaven before the onset of the events of the seven year period. The church is not mentioned during the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments because the church is not here during the outpouring of these judgments.3

Tribulation on a Christ-Rejecting WorldAnother purpose for the tribulation is that it is a time of God's wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world and a time of revenge for Gentile treatment of Israel. Moreover, it is evident that the Tribulation also concerns God's judgment upon Christ-rejecting Gentile nations. Babylon, which "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14:8), shall herself "be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her" (Rev. 18:8). The "cities of the nations" shall fall, after which Satan shall be bound "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" (Rev. 20:3). God's judgment falls likewise upon the individual wicked, the kings of the earth, the great, the rich, and the mighty, every bond man and every free man (Rev. 6:15-17). It falls upon all who blaspheme the name of God and repent not to give Him glory (Rev. 16:9).

Wicked men, godless nations, suffering Israel--these may all be found in Revelation 6-18; but one looks in vain for the Church of Christ, which is His body, until he reaches the nineteenth chapter. There she is seen as the heavenly bride of Christ, and when He returns to earth to make His enemies His footstool, she is seen returning with Him (I Thess. 3: 13).4 Such a time of judgment does not require the church, who has not rejected Christ, to be present. With the church in heaven during the tribulation, it enables God's focus to be on Israel as His Divine instrument through which He acts. This program was predicted by the Lord before Joshua and Israel ever entered the Promised Land. Notice the predicted pattern: 1) then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. (Deut. 30:3) 2) And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall posses s it . . . (Deut. 30:5a) 3) And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. (Deut. 30:7-8) Zechariah speaks of the Lord's retribution upon the nations as a time when "the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem . . . in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." (Zech. 12:8-9)

Once again the focus is upon Israel, in this case Jerusalem, not the church. The book of Revelation provides a graphic depiction of God's judgment upon an unbelieving world, often called "earth dwellers." As God prosecutes His judgment upon the "earth dwellers," John records periodic pauses by our Lord as He evaluates the response of mankind to His judgment before going onto the next phase. It is as if the Lord inflicts a series of judgments and then surveys the landscape to see if, like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, there is repentance so that He can suspend prosecution of the war. Un like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, the "earth dwellers" do not relent in the wake of "the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16), so our Lord proceeds to the next phase of His battle. Every step of the way, the "earth dwellers" would "not repent of the works of their hands" (Rev. 9:20) Instead of worshipping Christ, "the earth and those who dwell in it . . . worship the first beast" (Rev. 13:12). Instead of repentance they "blasphemed God" (Rev. 16:21). Finally, "all the nations were deceived" (Rev. 18:23) resulting in the satanic notion that the armies of the world must march against Jerusalem-God's city-and Israel-His people. This results in the basis for the second coming of Christ, which is to resue Israel from the world's armies who are striking out at God by invading His people. Such a scenario does not demand or require the church and so she will not be there. We can see that the purpose of the tribulation revovles around God's plan for Israel, not the church.

Conclusion: Only pretribulationism is able to give full import to tribulation terms like "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7), as a passage specifically stating that the tribulation is for Jacob (i.e., Israel). John Walvoord concludes, Never are tribulation saints given the special and perculiar promises given to the church in the present age. The nature of the church in contrast to Israel therefore becomes an argument supporting the pretribulation viewpoint.5 Since God's purpose for the tribulation is to restore Israel (Jer. 30:3, 10) and judge the Gentiles (Jer. 30:11), it is clear that this purpose does not include the church. This is one of the reasons why she will be taken to heaven before this time. The church's hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God's plan for His earthly people-Israel. Maranatha! W

Endnotes1 These arguments are adopted from John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1976), pp. 270-71. 2 Gerald B. Stanton, Kept From The Hour: Biblical Evidence for the Pretribulational Return of Christ, 4th edition (Miami Springs, FL: Schoettle Publishing Company, 1991), pp. 35-36. 3 Robert Gromacki, "Where is 'The Church' in Revelation 4-19?" in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, editors When The Trumpet Sounds (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1995), p. 355. 4 Stanton, Ibid., p. 36. 5 Walvoord, Ibid., p. 65.


Quasar
 

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Church is Absent from the TribulationNot one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2), nor does the New Testament ever speak of the church in relation to the tribulation





Joh_16:33  These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act_14:22  Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


Rom_5:3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Rom_8:35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom_12:12  Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

2Co_1:4  Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

2Co_7:4  Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

1Th_3:4  For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.


Rev_1:9  I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev_2:9  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev_2:10  Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev_7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You cannot come out of a room, unless you have been in a room.
You cannot come out of tribulation, unless you have been in tribulation.


.
 
Upvote 0

rockytopva

Love to pray! :)
Supporter
Mar 6, 2011
20,038
7,664
.
Visit site
✟1,056,135.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
I believe in the seven churches as ages / congregations...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

In which Revelation 3:22 is the last mention of the church in Revelation save in the last chapter where Christ Jesus basically says to go and get the word out. So the church disappears after Revelation 3:22, so I would agree that the rapture has taken place sometimes after.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Copperhead
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Well, it's too late for the believers to escape persecution/ tribulation.

It's been too late for perhaps centuries.

They are still suffering greatly, many places, many countries, even unto death,
willingly,
joyously,
obediently.
 
Upvote 0

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Joh_16:33  These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act_14:22  Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


Rom_5:3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Rom_8:35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom_12:12  Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

2Co_1:4  Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

2Co_7:4  Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

1Th_3:4  For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.


Rev_1:9  I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev_2:9  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev_2:10  Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev_7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You cannot come out of a room, unless you have been in a room.
You cannot come out of tribulation, unless you have been in tribulation.


.


FYI, the tribulation revealed in Jacob's Trouble, in Jer.30:7; Daniel 9:37, amplified in Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt.4; Mk.13 and Lk.21 and clearly described in Rev.6-19, HAVE NOT YET TAKEN PLACE. They will be the most terrible events the world has ever experienced, as Jesus said in Mt.24:21. It IS NOT a history lesson! It is about the end time prophetic future!

Mt.24:21 "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."


Quasar92
 
Upvote 0

Handmaid for Jesus

You can't steal my joy
Supporter
Dec 19, 2010
25,583
32,974
enroute
✟1,395,508.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
FYI, the tribulation revealed in Jacob's Trouble, in Jer.30:7; Daniel 9:37, amplified in Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt.4; Mk.13 and Lk.21 and clearly described in Rev.6-19, HAVE NOT YET TAKEN PLACE. They will be the most terrible events the world has ever experienced, as Jesus said in Mt.24:21. It IS NOT a history lesson! It is about the end time prophetic future!

Mt.24:21 "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."


Quasar92

I agree. It will be worse than it was in Noah's day. Lord Jesus said it would be so. The problem is people have no clue as to how bad it can get. Compared to what is coming, the major world wars will look like a walk in the park. Just think, every mountain and hill will be leveled. Every valley shall be filled in.All of the green grass shall be burned up.. All of the cities will fall.All of the towers shall fall. We are still recovering from the events of 9-11. Earthquakes and tsunamis, and hail stones weighing one hundred pounds. No, people do not have any idea about what all of that looks like. But, this is what will be happening during the tribulation.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Quasar92
Upvote 0

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Well, it's too late for the believers to escape persecution/ tribulation.

It's been too late for perhaps centuries.

They are still suffering greatly, many places, many countries, even unto death,
willingly,
joyously,
obediently.


he coming tribulation is not like anything ever experienced in the world, from the beginning of manking to this day. Jesus describes it in Mt.24:21as well as in Rev.6 through 19.


Quasar92
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
The number of people put to death/ martyred / every day is staggering.
The statistics of the world is beyond comprehension:
(these below are almost certainly VERY conservative,
and do not even begin to show how many are dying of beatings, thirst, hunger, imprisonment, abortion, war, famine, pestilence
and how many are suffering grievously at the hand of man every day, today)

Birth Rate.............................Death Rate
• 19 births/1,000 population • 8 deaths/1,000 population
• 131.4 million births per year • 55.3 million people die each year
• 360,000 births per day • 151,600 people die each day
• 15,000 births each hour • 6,316 people die each hour
2 more rows
Birth & Death Rates | Ecology Global Network
www.ecology.com/birth-death-rates/
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Handmaid for Jesus

You can't steal my joy
Supporter
Dec 19, 2010
25,583
32,974
enroute
✟1,395,508.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
The number of people put to death/ martyred / every day is staggering.
The statistics of the world is beyond comprehension:
(these below are almost certainly VERY conservative,
and do not even begin to show how many are dying of beatings, thirst, hunger, imprisonment, abortion, war, famine, pestilence
and how many are suffering grievously at the hand of man every day, today)

Birth Rate.............................Death Rate
• 19 births/1,000 population • 8 deaths/1,000 population
• 131.4 million births per year • 55.3 million people die each year
• 360,000 births per day • 151,600 people die each day
• 15,000 births each hour • 6,316 people die each hour
2 more rows
Birth & Death Rates | Ecology Global Network
www.ecology.com/birth-death-rates/
It gets worse.
 
Upvote 0

JohnRabbit

just trying to understand
Supporter
Feb 12, 2009
4,383
320
i am in alabama
✟55,288.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
The number of people put to death/ martyred / every day is staggering.
The statistics of the world is beyond comprehension:
(these below are almost certainly VERY conservative,
and do not even begin to show how many are dying of beatings, thirst, hunger, imprisonment, abortion, war, famine, pestilence
and how many are suffering grievously at the hand of man every day, today)

Birth Rate.............................Death Rate
• 19 births/1,000 population • 8 deaths/1,000 population
• 131.4 million births per year • 55.3 million people die each year
• 360,000 births per day • 151,600 people die each day
• 15,000 births each hour • 6,316 people die each hour
2 more rows
Birth & Death Rates | Ecology Global Network
www.ecology.com/birth-death-rates/
good information! :oldthumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
FYI, the tribulation revealed in Jacob's Trouble, in Jer.30:7; Daniel 9:37, amplified in Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt.4; Mk.13 and Lk.21 and clearly described in Rev.6-19, HAVE NOT YET TAKEN PLACE. They will be the most terrible events the world has ever experienced, as Jesus said in Mt.24:21. It IS NOT a history lesson! It is about the end time prophetic future!

Mt.24:21 "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."


Quasar92
The barbarity and inappropriate behavior with animals which characterized the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea have never been surpassed in the annals of history. Josephus documents this objectively.

The parallel passage in Luke 21:22-24 reveals that this is a fulfilled historic prophetic event, as the survivors were led captive into the nations, and Jerusalem was trodden down by the Romans, at that time.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
The barbarity and inappropriate behavior with animals which characterized the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea has never been surpassed in the annals of history. Josephus documents this objectively.
It has been surpassed many times.
And,
Josephus is not necessarily to be trusted.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
And your statement "Josephus is not necessarily to be trusted" is supported and proven?

What is the evidence for your statement?
Look in Scripture.

See if YHWH ever says to trust an unsaved man,
or even a saved one.
Or if YHWH says YHWH curses anyone who trusts in the flesh ....

Be surprised.... yes, very surprised, if you keep on seeking YHWH'S Kingdom - it is so much totally different.
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Look in Scripture.

See if YHWH ever says to trust an unsaved man,
or even a saved one.
Or if YHWH says YHWH curses anyone who trusts in the flesh ....

Be surprised.... yes, very surprised, if you keep on seeking YHWH'S Kingdom - it is so much totally different.
"The principal value of Josephus’s work lies in his discussion of Jewish history from 100 BC through AD 100. His narrative of this era is strongly supported by numerous authentic sources he gathered and interpreted with skill."
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The barbarity and inappropriate behavior with animals which characterized the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea have never been surpassed in the annals of history. Josephus documents this objectively.

The parallel passage in Luke 21:22-24 reveals that this is a fulfilled historic prophetic event, as the survivors were led captive into the nations, and Jerusalem was trodden down by the Romans, at that time.


Review Jesus words in Mt.24:21 together with all the events from Rev.6 through 19. There is nothing that has ever happened that even comes close . Israel is going to lose 2/3 of its present day population as recorded in Zech.13:8.


Quasar92
 
Upvote 0