Any thoughts on Job 3:8?

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Bluerose31]

Job 3:3-8 "May the day of my birth perish, and the night that said, 'A boy is conceived!'That day--may it turn to darkness; may God above not care about it; may no light shine on it.May gloom and utter darkness claim it once more; may a cloud settle over it; may blackness overwhelm it.That night--may thick darkness seize it; may it not be included among the days of the year nor be entered in any of the months.May that night be barren; may no shout of joy be heard in it.May those who curse days curse that day, those who are ready to rouse Leviathan.

I feel the verse has to do with the day that Job was born. He was in so much pain that he wished the day he was born was cursed and did not happen.

 

[brinny]

The KJV has "mourning" and the word is - leviathan.


Job 3:8

“Let them curse it that curse the day, who are ready to raise up their mourning.”

The verses in Job 3 are referring to profound misery and mourning. Job is regretting the day he was born because he is in such grief and mourning and excruciating pain and suffering. All ten of his children were just killed horribly and abruptly in a freak accident (amongst one slam of a loss after the other). In addition Job has putrid sores all over every inch of his body with worms in them. He is beyond misery and beyond mourning. What does "leviathan" have to do with the context of all of those beginning verses in Job 3?

 

[Sanoy]

I think I remember reading that mourning and Leviathan are very similar words. I can't remember where or why. However the same word does get used for Leviathan later in Job. I think Leviathan makes more contextual sense because this word "raise up" means awaken. Leviathan has the conceptual meaning of chaos in the ancient near east, so it couples well with the people in the first part of the verse...Those that "curse the day." Those people want the day gone, and that is something Leviathan can "conceptually" do.

 

[brinny]

I think I remember reading that mourning and Leviathan are very similar words. I can't remember where or why. However the same word does get used for Leviathan later in Job. I think it Leviathan makes more contextual sense because this word "raise up" means awaken. Leviathan has the conceptual meaning of chaos.

So Job says "Let Them" "that curse the day". That is a group of people that curse the day, that same type of person might be inclined to "awaken the chaos creature".

Leviathan is in later chapters of the book of Job and in sync and in context with the verses surrounding it in those chapters. In Job 3, Job is in the throes of misery, to the extent of regretting the day he was born. We have here Job, after having been floored with the sudden and tragic deaths of all ten of his children. In addition, he has putrid sores from head to foot, over every inch of his body and the sores have worms in them. Job is beyond grief and mourning here and is beyond misery, so much so that, as we look at the last part of chapter two, Job's friends have come, and they don't recognize Job because he is in such suffering and is in profound grief.

Chapter 3 of Job is about Job's inexplicable mourning and loss. It's not about "leviathan".

 

[Sanoy]

Leviathan is in later chapters of the book of Job and in sync and in context with the verses surrounding it in those chapters. In Job 3, Job is in the throes of misery, to the extent of regretting the day he was born. We have here Job, after having been floored with the sudden and tragic deaths of all ten of his children. In addition, he has putrid sores from head to foot, over every inch of his body and the sores have worms in them. Job is beyond grief and mourning here and is beyond misery, so much so that, as we look at the last part of chapter two, Job's friends have come, and they don't recognize Job because he is in such suffering and is in profound grief.

Chapter 3 of Job is about Job's inexplicable mourning and loss. It's not about "leviathan".

I agree, it is about regret, sadness, and loss. Having this word translated as leviathan doesn't change that context, it fits it. The chaos serpent ends things. It puts an end to life. That is why "them that curse the day" would also wish to wake Leviathan for utter destruction. It is also a living being that can be awoken, it makes sense in the grammar. Mourning doesn't make sense of the preceding word "awake". Most of the modern translations go with Leviathan.

 

[brinny]

I agree, it is about regret, sadness, and loss. Having this word translated as leviathan doesn't change that context, it fits it. The chaos serpent ends things. It puts an end to life. That is why "them that curse the day" would also wish to wake Leviathan for utter destruction. It is also a living being that can be awoken, it makes sense in the grammar. Mourning doesn't make sense of the preceding "awoken".

Of course mourning makes sense. It makes sense and fits for the entire theme in chapter 3.

"Leviathan" is not about regret, sadness, loss, or mourning.

"Mourning" is.

 

[Sanoy]

Of course mourning makes sense. It makes sense and fits for the entire theme in chapter 3.

"Leviathan" is not about regret, sadness, loss, or mourning.

"Mourning" is.

I agree that the word "Mourning" fits the context of the chapter, but it doesn't fit the grammar of the verse given the word "Awake" that precedes it. How can the act of mourning be awoken?

 

[paul1149]

The text progresses from mourning to cursing in v8. The writer is going from passively experiencing the pain to lashing out in response. I think we've all been there, in that place where we veer between pain and anger. That's where Job is at this point. I think it's very understandable, and would go with Leviathan.

The sense is he's either calling up anger, or he's actually appealing to dark spiritual forces to enforce the curse he desires. Rotherham's Emphasized Bible seems to bring that out by rendering it "rouse the dragon of the sky", though I'm not sure if there's warrant for that.

Most of the translations use Leviathan: Job 3:8 - Bible Gateway.

There's no linguistic warrant for mourning there that I can see, unless the translators suspect corruption of the text. And that doesn't seem likely, as the ancient Greek Septuagint translation concurs with the Hebrew. In total, five out of six times the KJV renders the same greek word as "Leviathan."

 

[brinny]

I agree that the word "Mourning" fits the context of the chapter, but it doesn't fit the grammar of the verse given the word "Awake" that precedes it. How can the act of mourning be awoken?

Sure it can. Pain and loss awakens it.

Mourning fits perfectly. On a scale of 1-10, Job's mourning, grief, and suffering is at least a 25, because it goes beyond what any of us can fathom and i'm sure he felt the same way.

Leviathan doesn't fit the theme or the context of the 3rd chapter of Job.

It looks out of place, and glaringly so.

 

[Sanoy]

Sure it can. Pain and loss awakens it.

Pain and loss cause mourning to occur. It doesn't awaken it. People don't have "Mourning" asleep inside of them until something bad happens to wake it up. Are you King James only Brinny?

 

[brinny]

The text progresses from mourning to cursing in v8. The writer is going from passively experiencing the pain to lashing out in response. I think we've all been there, in that place where we veer between pain and anger. That's where Job is at this point. I think it's very understandable, and would go with Leviathan.

The sense is he's either calling up anger, or he's actually appealing to dark spiritual forces to enforce the curse he desires. Rotherham's Emphasized Bible seems to bring that out by rendering it "rouse the dragon of the sky", though I'm not sure if there's warrant for that.

Most of the translations use Leviathan: Job 3:8 - Bible Gateway.

There's no linguistic warrant for mourning there that I can see, unless the translators suspect corruption of the text. And that doesn't seem likely, as the ancient Greek Septuagint translation concurs with the Hebrew. In total, five out of six times the KJV renders the same greek word as "Leviathan."

Job is appealing to "dark forces"? Would you care to elaborate?

I'm aware that most of the translations use "Leviathan".

 

[brinny]

Pain and loss cause mourning to occur. It doesn't awaken it. People don't have "Mourning" asleep inside of them until something bad happens to wake it up.

Sure there is. Exhaustion can render grief and mourning dormant, so to speak. When there is additional crushing heartbreak, the grief and mourning is "awakened". It begins again.

The bottom line is that the entire 3rd chapter of Job is about Job's inexplicable grief, loss, mourning, and excruciating suffering and pain.

 

[brinny]

Pain and loss cause mourning to occur. It doesn't awaken it. People don't have "Mourning" asleep inside of them until something bad happens to wake it up. Are you King James only Brinny?

Nice try.

The entire 3rd chapter, and the chapter before it is about Job's mourning which was so severe that his friends (see chapter 2) didn't recognize him.

 

[Sanoy]

Sure there is. Exhaustion can render grief and mourning dormant, so to speak. When there is additional crushing heartbreak, the grief and mourning is "awakened". It begins again.

The bottom line is that the entire 3rd chapter of Job is about Job's inexplicable grief, loss, mourning, and excruciating suffering and pain.

I agree about the context of Grief. In the ANE context waking Leviathan is the same as hoping a meteor falls on you.

I don't have mourning dormant inside of me right now. I have no experience of that. I'm not sure there is much more I can add. Maybe this is a KJVO thing? I don't know how to discuss this if it is.

 

[Sanoy]

Nice try.

The entire 3rd chapter, and the chapter before it is about Job's mourning which was so severe that his friends (see chapter 2) didn't recognize him.

Nice try? How have we gotten into that kind of language.

 

[brinny]

I agree about the context of Grief. In the ANE context waking Leviathan is the same as hoping a meteor falls on you.

I don't have mourning dormant inside of me right now. I have no experience of that. I'm not sure there is much more I can add. Maybe this is a KJVO thing? I don't know.

That denotes anger, rage, hatred.

Job wasn't angry, in a rage, or calling on "dark forces" or calling down curses on anyone.

If he was, he would be sinning and evilly so.

 

[brinny]

Nice try? How have we gotten into that kind of language.

See post #17.

 

[Sanoy]

That denotes anger, rage, hatred.

Job wasn't angry, in a rage, or calling on "dark forces" or calling down curses on anyone.

If he was, he would be sinning and evilly so.

Job is wishing he was never born. Job never calls up Leviathan. He is saying let those who curse the day and summon leviathan also curse the day he was born.

Are you KJV only? It's fine if you are.

 

[brinny]

Job is wishing he was never born. Job never calls up Leviathan. He is saying let those who curse the day and summon leviathan also curse his birth.

In the throes of his grief and despair, Job in his excruciating mourning was regretting the day he was born.

He did not have a clue what God and Satan had discussed about Job in heaven, unbeknownst to Job, and why all of this was happening. God was also seemingly absent when Job needed him the most. He had NO Comforter. Although he kept desperately calling out to God, there was no answer.

The question here, is, did Job sin?

(I'll continue in a bit.)