The Difference Between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ

[claninja]

Hi Marilyn, Thank you for the clarification.

Hi claninja,

There it is for you, `Christ and the church`, the called out ones, the Body of Christ, the new man being brought to a perfect man. (Eph. 1: 23, 2: 15, 4: 13)

I absolutely agree with you, the church is the body of Christ. And yes, Christ reconciled both Jew and Gentile making these two, one new man by abolishing the law of commands in ordinances via the cross. Ephesians 2:22-18.

The focus is on love, unity, oneness.
`No one ever hated his own flesh, (body) but nourishes it and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, (His body, the new man, to a perfect man). (Eph. 5: 29)

I agree with you for the most part, but you are leaving out the context of the passage: marriage, which is what Ephesians 5:22-33 is about. "28so ought the husbands to love their own wives as their own bodies: he who is loving his own wife — himself he doth love; 29for no one ever his own flesh did hate, but doth nourish and cherish it, as also the Lord"

In this context he is referring to marriage, the oneness between husband and wife, not Jew and Gentile. It is in this passage where Paul makes the comparison of Christ loving his own body (church) as a husband loves his wife like his own body.

Can you see yourself saying to an unsaved man - `Come to Jesus and be His bride.` Of course not. But if that is what is taught then in fact that is what they`ll eventually be told to believe.

Again, this is symbolism. Are we to assume a woman becomes a man according to Ephesians 2:15? No, of course not. These are illustrations, earthly examples, that symbolize the body of believer's relationship with Christ.

Note the Lord said there as no marriages in heaven. It is an earthly relationship of people. Christ and His Body is the closest relationship you can have. I pray you will look carefully onto it, for it leads to what we believe our inheritance is.

Paul is using earthly examples to illustrate the church's relationship with Christ. Paul states a great mystery here. Why did God give us marriage? It is symbol of the relationship of Christ and the Church.

Ephesians 5:32-32 ‘for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and they shall be — the two — for one flesh;’ 32this secret is great, and I speak in regard to Christ and to the assembly;

The great secret is that the husband and wife becoming one flesh, is representation of Christ and the church. To say it is not, is to deny what Paul clearly says. I will also pray that you look at this carefully.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn, Thank you for the clarification.

I absolutely agree with you, the church is the body of Christ. And yes, Christ reconciled both Jew and Gentile making these two, one new man by abolishing the law of commands in ordinances via the cross. Ephesians 2:22-18.

I agree with you for the most part, but you are leaving out the context of the passage: marriage, which is what Ephesians 5:22-33 is about. "28so ought the husbands to love their own wives as their own bodies: he who is loving his own wife — himself he doth love; 29for no one ever his own flesh did hate, but doth nourish and cherish it, as also the Lord"

In this context he is referring to marriage, the oneness between husband and wife, not Jew and Gentile. It is in this passage where Paul makes the comparison of Christ loving his own body (church) as a husband loves his wife like his own body.

Again, this is symbolism. Are we to assume a woman becomes a man according to Ephesians 2:15? No, of course not. These are illustrations, earthly examples, that symbolize the body of believer's relationship with Christ.

Paul is using earthly examples to illustrate the church's relationship with Christ. Paul states a great mystery here. Why did God give us marriage? It is symbol of the relationship of Christ and the Church.

Ephesians 5:32-32 ‘for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and they shall be — the two — for one flesh;’ 32this secret is great, and I speak in regard to Christ and to the assembly;

The great secret is that the husband and wife becoming one flesh, is representation of Christ and the church. To say it is not, is to deny what Paul clearly says. I will also pray that you look at this carefully.

Thank you claninja,

Good point regarding women - man, however the `new man` encompasses both, (as Eve was taken from Adam) God has both characteristics from where we get ours.

Now perhaps we can look at this topic from a different perspective. So as you rightly say the `bride` is a symbol. So what does that represent - marriage you say, but what does that mean in regards, to the Body of Christ and Himself?

regards, Marilyn.

 

[claninja]

So as you rightly say the `bride` is a symbol. So what does that represent - marriage you say, but what does that mean in regards, to the Body of Christ and Himself?

The husband and wife becoming one flesh refers to Christ and his church.

As the husband is the head of the wife, so to is Christ the head of the the church. As the husband loves his wife as his own body, so to does Christ love the church as his own body. As the husband and wife are one, so to are Christ and his church one.

 

[Marilyn C]

The husband and wife becoming one flesh refers to Christ and his church.

As the husband is the head of the wife, so to is Christ the head of the the church. As the husband loves his wife as his own body, so to does Christ love the church as his own body. As the husband and wife are one, so to are Christ and his church one.

So claninja,

Are you saying that the Body of Christ is female and will `marry` Jesus. Then they will be Queen of heaven alongside the King?

Just trying to get what this `bride` means to you and where it is leading.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[claninja]

So claninja,

Are you saying that the Body of Christ is female and will `marry` Jesus. Then they will be Queen of heaven alongside the King?

Just trying to get what this `bride` means to you and where it is leading.

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marylin,
If you read it literally, you will miss the spiritual truth.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marylin,
If you read it literally, you will miss the spiritual truth.

Hi claninja,

And what spiritual truth is that? I`m interested to know, for it would be a spiritual truth.

Marilyn.

 

[claninja]

Hi claninja,

And what spiritual truth is that? I`m interested to know, for it would be a spiritual truth.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn, it has been explained multiple times now, yet you continue to repeat a literal understanding by assuming physical things (marriage in heaven, men becoming women). It is not the physical. Look past the physical and see the spiritual. i hope you are I'll be able to see it. Until then, this discussion seems to be going in circles. But i did appreciate with you. Thank you and best regards.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn, it has been explained multiple times now, yet you continue to repeat a literal understanding by assuming physical things (marriage in heaven, men becoming women). It is not the physical. Look past the physical and see the spiritual. i hope you are I'll be able to see it. Until then, this discussion seems to be going in circles. But i did appreciate with you. Thank you and best regards.

Hi claninja,

Yes it did seem like we were going in circles, however I am still none the wiser as to what being `the bride of Christ` means to you. Spiritually, you say we are `married,` to the Lord, however what really does that mean?

If you don`t want to keep replying I will understand. Marilyn.

 

[BABerean2]

Joh_3:29　 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled.


Rev_21:2　 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Rev_21:9　 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."


Rev_22:17　 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

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[Marilyn C]

Joh_3:29　 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled.


Rev_21:2　 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Rev_21:9　 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."


Rev_22:17　 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

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Hi BABerean,

Yes the Lord is the bridegroom, and Israel is the bride.

`For your Maker is your husband.`(Isa. 54: 5)
`I will betroth you to me for ever; Yes I will betroth you to me in righteousness and justice, in loving-kindness and mercy, I will betroth you to me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 2: 19 & 20)

Marilyn.

 

[BABerean2]

Yes the Lord is the bridegroom, and Israel is the bride.

Which Israel?

Rom 9:6　 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:　

Rom 9:8　 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
　


Gal 6:14 But it's unthinkable that I could ever brag about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. By his cross my relationship to the world and its relationship to me have been crucified.
Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God. (GW)

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[Quasar92]

Hi BABerean,

Yes the Lord is the bridegroom, and Israel is the bride.

`For your Maker is your husband.`(Isa. 54: 5)
`I will betroth you to me for ever; Yes I will betroth you to me in righteousness and justice, in loving-kindness and mercy, I will betroth you to me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 2: 19 & 20)

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

According to the Scriptures, Israe is the wie of God the Father, and Jesus is the Bridegroom of His Bride, the Church, recorded in Rev.10:7-8. The Cjrch is then described as following Jesus from the marriage in heaven in His second coming to the earth WITH His Church, described in verse 14.

Hope this helps.

God Bless.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Which Israel?

Rom 9:6　 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:　

Rom 9:8　 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
　


Gal 6:14 But it's unthinkable that I could ever brag about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. By his cross my relationship to the world and its relationship to me have been crucified.
Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God. (GW)

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THE CHURCH IS NOT ISRAEL!

We come now to something that is crucial and needs to be defined to understand the new covenant. Is the Church Israel? For if it is ,we are obligated to keep Sabbath day at least in a general sense. If the Church is not Israel then what sense would there be to keep the Sabbath. Scripturally we find the Church is not Israel the nation but a separate entity under an entirely new covenant. Israel is called the wife of Jehovah, while the Church is called the bride of Christ, showing distinctions in how God relates to each. The word Israel is always descriptive of the physical descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. It was Jacob who’s name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons that became that nation.

Many transfer the promises and the covenants to Israel to the Church, but there is absolutely no reason to do this. The Church is not spiritual Israel. Look it up you’ll never find the term or concept in the Bible. There are only two verses that are used to validate this view, both are unsupported in their context.

Gal.3:29 says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed. The seed of Abraham does not mean one is Israel. It Means those who are justified by faith are spiritual descendants of Abraham but this does not make them descendants of Jacob who is Israel. They partake in the spiritual blessings that come through Israel. While there are two different groups of people who can be descendants of Abraham one of which is the Arabs, they do not share in the promises of Jacob. Only Israel is descended from the physical posterity of Jacob.

The other verse is Gal.6:16 where Paul is addressing both believing Jews and Gentiles in the church "As many as walk according to this rule (Gentile believers) and upon "the Israel of God." In its context this term means Jews who are believers, who believe salvation is by faith in Christ contrary to what the Judaizers were teaching that the law was needed also. Paul also addresses this in Rom.9:6-8 that there are two Israel's, one that consists of Jews and the elect, the true Israel which are the physical posterity and also have the faith of Abraham, they are the Israel of God mentioned in Gal.6. As Paul states, " for they are not all Israel who are of Israel." (Rom.9:6). There is also "Israel" after the flesh found in 1 Cor.10:18. The Church is never called spiritual Israel or is a new Israel replacing the old. Nor does it say believers become Jews. Both gentiles and Jews participate together in the New Covenant. as Eph 2 addresses the middle wall of partition being broken down and God makeing a new entity.

In the N.T we have three terms used alongside each other, Israel, Gentiles and the Church. The Church consists of both believing Gentiles and Jews while Israel as a nation is in unbelief as are the Gentiles. The Church and Israel are two distinct groups and God has a different program for each. Both are brought in make up the body of Christ. The name Israel is used 20 times and the church 19 times in the book of Acts, both are kept distinct While there is no difference in salvation for both, Gods plans are different for each. In the book of Acts Israel and the church exist alongside each other, nowhere is the church called the new or spiritual Israel.There are certain areas the differences of Jew and gentile are erased but in all areas.Such as we becoming one in Christ all the same way 1 Cor.12:13 , according to the NT a Jew is one that is not only outwardly by the flesh but inwardly,this obviously can't be for a gentile so for a gentile. there is no such thing as a spiritual Jew from the inside only, but there is such a thing as spiritual gentiles.

If you claim to be Israel then you were cut off according to Romans.11. And where the natural branch once was, God grafted in unnatural ones the Gentiles. It doesn't get any clearer. The teaching of God abandoning Israel the nation or replaced by the Church did quite well for almost 1,500 hundred years until he actually gave them back their land AND STARTED TO REGATHER THEM FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD JUST AS HE SAID HE WOULD. God said in Neh. 1:8 if you are unfaithful I will scatter you.' but he also said...

Jer.30:18, 31:8 "Behold I will bring them from the north country and gather them from the ends of the earth."

Isa.43:5 I will bring your descendants from the east and gather you from the west...

It is a nation that is being gathered today for the tribulation, they are gathered first in unbelief until that fateful day where in Romans 11 Paul says they will all be saved after the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The Church is dealt with differently than the nation of Israel, God has a differnt plan for both.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Hi Marilyn,

According to the Scriptures, Israe is the wie of God the Father, and Jesus is the Bridegroom of His Bride, the Church, recorded in Rev.10:7-8. The Cjrch is then described as following Jesus from the marriage in heaven in His second coming to the earth WITH His Church, described in verse 14.

Hope this helps.

God Bless.


Quasar92

Jer 31:32　 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.　


Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.

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[claninja]

Many transfer the promises and the covenants to Israel to the Church, but there is absolutely no reason to do this.

Because of the cross, Gentiles were grafted in and became fellow citizens with the elect Israelites
in the house of God (Ephesians 2:19). Because of the cross, God took the gentiles and made them into one Body with the elect Israelites (Ephesians 2:16). This body of believers is the body of Christ (Ephesians 5:31-32). Therefore we are the heirs of the promise to Abraham and to his offspring, who is Christ, as we (Jew and gentile) are Christs body.
The inherited blessings that all nations receive through Abrahams offspring(christ) , is not physical earthly Jerusalem that is a result of slavery to the Law, but the free Jerusalem, which is above.
Galatians 4:25-26 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

 

[BABerean2]

We come now to something that is crucial and needs to be defined to understand the new covenant. Is the Church Israel? For if it is ,we are obligated to keep Sabbath day at least in a general sense. If the Church is not Israel then what sense would there be to keep the Sabbath.

Apparently you have not really read the text of Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13.

The Sabbath day is the "sign" of the Sinai Covenant, which has been made "obsolete" by the New Covenant.

In the New Covenant with Israel and Judah below, we find that the New Covenant is not the same as the Sinai covenant.


Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　
Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　
Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　
Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　
Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　
Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　


Based on Colossians 2:16-17, Christ is our Sabbath rest in the New Covenant.

Hebrews 12:18-24 also makes it clear that we are under the New Covenant, instead of the Sinai Covenant.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

According to the Scriptures, Israe is the wie of God the Father, and Jesus is the Bridegroom of His Bride, the Church, recorded in Rev.10:7-8. The Cjrch is then described as following Jesus from the marriage in heaven in His second coming to the earth WITH His Church, described in verse 14.

Hope this helps.
God Bless.
Quasar92

Hi Quasar,

However...the symbolic marriage feast takes place on earth. Notice the person who enters the wedding hall without a wedding garment and was thus thrown out. That person could not have entered heaven without a `wedding garment` so the symbolic marriage is on earth.

`So those servants went out into the highways and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man who did not have on a wedding garment. So he said to him, "Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment" And he was speechless.

Then the king said to the servants, "Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.` (Matt. 22L 10 - 13)

BTW there is no such phrase as `the bride of Christ` in God`s word.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Which Israel?

Rom 9:6　 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:　

Rom 9:8　 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
　


Gal 6:14 But it's unthinkable that I could ever brag about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. By his cross my relationship to the world and its relationship to me have been crucified.
Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God. (GW)

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Hi BABerean,

1. Romans 9: 6 - refers to actual Israel. God is saying that not all of Israel are the true Israel.
2. Galatians 6: 16 says - `And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, AND, ....... upon the Israel of God.` Two different groups there, bro.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Jer 31:32　 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.　


Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　

Hi BABerean,

Yes we know that God `divorced` Israel, however.....He will again symbolically `marry His wife.` That is the picture we see in Hosea where he had to marry a wayward woman. Then we read of the actual `marriage` in Rev. 19: 7 where it speaks of `the marriage of the Lamb and His wife has made herself ready.` The term `Lamb` is related to Israel & their sacrifices, and the `wife,` reveals the former relationship.

The spiritual meaning of the picture of `marriage,` means that the Lord is the master of them, Israel.

Marilyn.

 

[BABerean2]

The term `Lamb` is related to Israel & their sacrifices

Based, on the Book of Hebrews there are no more sacrifices.

Heb 10:16　 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"　
Heb 10:17　 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 10:18　 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.　


Calvary was the final sacrifice for sin.

You cannot separate Israel and the Church in Hebrews 8:6-13, if you are honest with the text.


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