Scholars on BOTH sides agree - Saturday is the seventh day - the Sabbath of Exodus 20

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
When someone refuses to believe it is possible not to sin, when the apostles preach it is, then that is not believing the Word. Not a false accusation at all, just responding to what he didn't believe.
Yes, false premise. False thoughts. False accusation.

"You have no idea!" (sorry, the wounds are so much deeper than once thought)
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Totally false.

As I have pointed out many times so far (and we both know it) in Romans 3 - Paul uses the term "under the law" to mean "under the condemnation of the law" and in Romans 3 he applies it to the "whole world" and "everyone with a mouth" -- (unless you are now offering us the wild speculation that gentiles don't have mouths -- or that they are not in the world--- is this really where you are going?????)

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

It is a sweeping statement about all mankind (not just Jews) - being "under the law" - which Paul clearly uses to mean "under the condemnation of the LAW as sinners".

And what Law is that? it is the one that defines what sin is - the one that includes the TEN Commandments.

A glaringly obvious bible detail so obvious - that even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholars admit to it.

When a Bible detail is so obvious that BOTH sides admit to it -- well... "it just does not GET any easier than this!!" -- just stating the obvious.



Hi David -

Well first of all it is Romans 3:19-20 ... not just 20

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.



Indeed. The "Whole world" as the text says ... and "every mouth". All have sinned ... all need the Gospel

Not the wild speculation of "just Jews"

Here again we have such a Bible101 basic detail that even Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the debate admit to this Bible detail.

Just does not GET any easier than this.

===================

What is more the conclusion about that LAW (that even you admit is including Ex 20) is this "Do we then make VOID the LAW by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31.

Because it is that LAW that Jeremiah says is "written on the heart and mind" in Jeremiah 31:31-33

If we are only not under the condemnation of the law, then that would mean we can break the commandments and not receive any punishment.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
If we are only not under the condemnation of the law, then that would mean we can break the commandments and not receive any punishment.
footnote for future followup , hypothetically perhaps, if recognizing that popes, bishops, priests, pastors, reverends , members , congregants, teachers, sunday school teachers,
educators, politicians, doctors, governors, evangelists, prophets, saints, etc etc etc are breaking the commandments every day and
[apparently] do "not receive any punishment.".

How can your church provide reconciliation to YHWH for those anywhere or everywhere who sin every day ?
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, false premise. False thoughts. False accusation.

"You have no idea!" (sorry, the wounds are so much deeper than once thought)

This is what I was responding to as him not believing the Word of God that says it IS possible to not sin.

"
You must have made selfish choices at times rather than loving your neighbor equally. We all do. You are not perfect. The spirit part of you is cleansed, but you still have the flesh unless you can't see yourself in the mirror? And maybe your should try to look in the mirror because one of the aspects of Spiritual Maturity is being honest and willing to look in the mirror at our sins. We live in a sinful world. You mean to tell me that Christianity has a spotless history? Or maybe just the people who thought they were Christians did all the bad stuff?
If we did, others would not hold our tarnished past sins against us. They would just look at us and see Christ. Are you a pure reflection of Jesus? You deceive yourself."

So if you and BobR believe I made a false accusation show me?
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
footnote for future followup , hypothetically perhaps, if recognizing that popes, bishops, priests, pastors, reverends , members , congregants, teachers, sunday school teachers,
educators, politicians, doctors, governors, evangelists, prophets, saints, etc etc etc are breaking the commandments every day and
[apparently] do "not receive any punishment.".

How can your church provide reconciliation to YHWH for those anywhere or everywhere who sin every day ?

What in the world are you talking about, Jeff. I was responding to a post by BobR where he said we are not under the "CONDEMNATION" of the law, not the law itself. So I asked him a question, about what he believes.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
false accusation - much?

It looks to me that I'm the one being attacked by you and Jeff. That is very interesting to me.

Exactly what was my false accusation and against whom? It appears to me you two are falsely accusing me!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
David - a suggestion.

Instead of always going uphill against not only the Bible texts quoted but ALSO against your own pro-Sunday scholars. How about trying out the other option for one day each week. Full agreement with your own pro-Sunday Bible scholars and the many texts that affirm the TEN Commandments.

Then on the other days -- compare the two-views on this subject.
Hello Bob.

I am not going uphill, just ignoring the tradition of men.
 
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Hello Bob.
True - so it is no wonder that in Acts 16:1-5 Paul has Timothy circumcised - but not Titus in Gal 1.
Exactly, the law was the law, Paul needed to comply because Timothy's mother was Jewish.
What is more - in Acts 20 the Jews falsely accuse Paul of telling Jews not to circumcise their children and so Paul goes through great lengths to totally disprove the false accusation made against him.
Correct.

Though Paul would not allow Gentiles to follow the law and be circumcised.

Galatians 6:13
For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.

The Jews were under the law, the Gentiles were not under the law.

There is nothing in the Bible about Gentiles needing to circumcised -- either OT or NT.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,505
Georgia
✟899,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Hello Bob.
Exactly, the law was the law, Paul needed to comply because Timothy's mother was Jewish.

1. True - even after the cross
2. And the Law did not require Titus to be circumcised - he was not a Jew. But it would be "sin" for Titus to break the TEN commandments "still". Thus "no taking God's name in vain" for Titus.

1 Cor 7:19 "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing - but what MATTERS is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD"

Correct.
Though Paul would not allow Gentiles to follow the law and be circumcised.

False - since no Law required gentiles to be circumcised. Paul's actions were fully consistent with God's Law for both Jews and Gentiles.

Thus "no taking God's name in vain" for Titus.

There is nothing in the Bible about Gentiles needing to circumcised -- either OT or NT.

True - but neither Jew nor gentile were supposed to break the commandments of God - neither were allowed to take God's name in vain.

The Ten Commandments apply to all mankind - as even your own pro-Sunday scholars affirm.

in Christ,

Bob
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,505
Georgia
✟899,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Hello Bob.

I am not going uphill, just ignoring the tradition of men.

Mark 7:6-13 the "traditions of men" tries to set aside one of the "Commandments of God"...

details matter.

Follow the Bible at least on the easy and obvious points - so clear in the Bible that BOTH sides can see them clearly.

When your own pro-Sunday scholars are refuting the false doctrine that the TEN Commandments are not the moral law of God for all mankind ... so not "just me" and not "Just the Bible"... what remains to be confused about???

There are many areas of debate that we could be having where BOTH sides do not agree... you are picking the one Bible detali that is soooo obvious Bible scholars on BOTH sides admit to it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,505
Georgia
✟899,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
It looks to me that I'm the one being attacked by you and Jeff. That is very interesting to me.

Exactly what was my false accusation and against whom? It appears to me you two are falsely accusing me!

I just asked.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,505
Georgia
✟899,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Hello Bob.

You need the verses where the apostles tell the Gentiles, that they are under the law.

Totally false.

As I have pointed out many times so far (and we both know it) in Romans 3 - Paul uses the term "under the law" to mean "under the condemnation of the law" and in Romans 3 he applies it to the "whole world" and "everyone with a mouth" -- (unless you are now offering us the wild speculation that gentiles don't have mouths -- or that they are not in the world--- is this really where you are going?????)

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

It is a sweeping statement about all mankind (not just Jews) - being "under the law" - which Paul clearly uses to mean "under the condemnation of the LAW as sinners".

And what Law is that? it is the one that defines what sin is - the one that includes the TEN Commandments.

A glaringly obvious bible detail so obvious - that even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholars admit to it.

When a Bible detail is so obvious that BOTH sides admit to it -- well... "it just does not GET any easier than this!!" -- just stating the obvious.

Hello Bob.
Regarding the verse you quoted (Romans 3:20) and the context of chapter three, what is Paul saying?

Hi David -

Well first of all it is Romans 3:19-20 ... not just 20

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

For some reason Bob you do not seem to understand what the text is saying.
I will quote these verses from Paul again.

Romans 3 (NASB)
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

What the written law (Exodus 20) states, applies to those 'under the law',

Indeed. The "Whole world" as the text says ... and "every mouth". All have sinned ... all need the Gospel

Not the wild speculation of "just Jews"

Here again we have such a Bible101 basic detail that even Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the debate admit to this Bible detail.

Just does not GET any easier than this.

===================

What is more the conclusion about that LAW (that even you admit is including Ex 20) is this "Do we then make VOID the LAW by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31.

Because it is that LAW that Jeremiah says is "written on the heart and mind" in Jeremiah 31:31-33

If we are only not under the condemnation of the law, then that would mean we can break the commandments and not receive any punishment.

Not under the condemnation of the LAW means "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 EVEN for Christians.

Not under the condemnation of the LAW means "not sinning because whom you obey that is your master" Romans 6

Not under the condemnation of the LAW means "WE ESTABLISH the LAW by our faith" Rom 3:31

Not under the condemnation of the LAW means that it is the "LOST who do not and indeed CAN not submit to the LAW of God" while the saints FULFILL it. Romans 8:4-10

So the wild speculation "not under the condemnation of the law means sinning without consequence" is proven in the NT to be false.

What is more - it is the very false accusation about the Gospel that Paul refutes.

As we both already know. (thus once again I argue for the clearly obvious point that BOTH sides already agree to )
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,505
Georgia
✟899,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
When someone refuses to believe it is possible not to sin, when the apostles preach it is, then that is not believing the Word.

True - but I never claim that the Bible is wrong in that regard.

What I would claim is that no Bible writer says "I have ceased to sin".

Nor does any Bible writer state "you must always sin" or "you can never stop sinning"

Both are true.
 
Upvote 0

Ronald

Exhortations
Supporter
Jul 30, 2004
4,620
982
southern
✟111,578.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I wish, I really really wish, you had not named some of the enemies of Christ as if they had repented - whitewashed testimonies, exposed throroughly on the wide open internet for all to read about - their own words and their own teachings (bad fruit, contradicting Scripture) , convicting them (not me nor you nor anyone else convicting them --- their own lives, their own words doing that...) .....

Remember that all that the world exalts and claims praise for , YHWH trashes.
This happens daily, in government, science, religion, social situations, entertainment, education, and finance. (every segment of mankind/ woe-ciety )
Those on the list I mentioned are enemies of Christ you say?
They devoted their lives to Christ. Judge not lest you be judged ... and it will come back to you in equal measure - watch yourself.
>But thanks for giving another example of Christians who sin and are not loving towards their neighbors.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ronald

Exhortations
Supporter
Jul 30, 2004
4,620
982
southern
✟111,578.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
In the NT - "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.

In the NT - ALL the World - and "every mouth" is "UNDER the LAW" Romans 3:19-20 .. all the world condemned as sinners... all the world needs a Savior. BOTH Jews AND gentiles. The term means "under the condemnation of the LAW" -

And speaking of that SAME law that condemns all the world Paul says "Do we then make void the LAW by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

In the NT - being saved by Grace - means keeping the LAW of God - because we have the New Covenant promise with the "LAW written on the heart" Hebrews 8:6-10 unchanged from its OT form in Jer 31:31-33

In the NT - "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
In the NT - "there REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4

Thus it is STILL a sin for gentiles to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 even AFTER they become a Christian.

=====================================

But back to the OP - the issue clarified there was simply the Bible fact that Saturday is the Bible Sabbath and Sunday is the first day of the week.
We know what sin is because of the Law, without the Law, there is no sin.
The WORLD IS UNDER THE LAW, we are not of the world, we are in it, not part of it, aliens.
The Law was a tutor, we no longer need a tutor. However it is there for the world. It was there for humans to see their sin, struggle to keep it and realize they couldn't and failed. It was there for Christ to fulfill it for us.
We are in Christ, He is our rest, our Sabbath. In Him and only in Him can we experience peace and rest and holiness, not because it is a particular day of the week. Jews did not have peace on the Sabbath, IT WAS A BURDEN TO THEM, THEY STRUGGLED TRYING TO KEEP OVER 250 SABBATH LAWS AND FAILED. Christ came, the Lord of the Sabbath and did what? He worked on the Sabbath, healed on the Sabbath, His disciples picked grain and Jesus did what ... rebuked the Pharisees for their judgment against them JUST AS SDA DO TO THE REST OF US.
You say what matters is "keeping the commandments". No, Jesus fulfilled that part for us BECAUSE WE COULD NOT KEEP ANY ONE OF THEM -- H E L L O!
You mentioned Hebrews 4? That reiterates that Jesus is our rest that we entered into.
But hey, you go ahead and try to keep the Sabbath holy ... and you will fail as the Jews did and everyone who ever has tried!
 
Upvote 0

Ronald

Exhortations
Supporter
Jul 30, 2004
4,620
982
southern
✟111,578.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I remember when Pastor Jack (Hayford) would tell us of a sin he committed. It would be part of his sermon. He is the most open book I've ever known.
There you go, a great pastor, confessing his sin. My pastor would do the same as well. I myself went to a Four Square Church for a dozen years in Hermosa Beach, not such much charismatic but we believed in the spiritual gifts. The best pastors were the ones who honestly confessed their flaws and struggles, a daily task of dying to yourself and dying to your old ways. I don't recall any ever saying it all disappeared at conversion. Spiritually yes, but not in their flesh.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
True - but I never claim that the Bible is wrong in that regard.

What I would claim is that no Bible writer says "I have ceased to sin".

Nor does any Bible writer state "you must always sin" or "you can never stop sinning"

Both are true.

I don't know about that. John was pretty clear and I would assume he knew also by experience.

"6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."

Of course, I imagine he was pretty old when he wrote that and had perfected years of overcoming sin. The same with Paul.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,505
Georgia
✟899,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I don't know about that. John was pretty clear and I would assume he knew also by experience.
"6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."

Of course, I imagine he was pretty old when he wrote that and had perfected years of overcoming sin. The same with Paul.

Then you have only your presumption and inference for you idea that John went around saying "I have ceased to sin"
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,505
Georgia
✟899,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
"sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- that is clear
"These things I write to you that you sin NOT.." 1 John 2:1 - that is clear

And apparently on this thread we have agreement that Saturday is the Sabbath as found in the Bible in places like Exodus 20:11 and in the Gospels and in Acts 18:4 "Every Sabbath"
 
Upvote 0