JOHN 3:16 - JESUS CHRIST ON HIS ATONEMENT

Christodoulos

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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

Here some Calvinists would have us believe, that the Greek word, “kosmos”, which is rendered “world” in all English versions of the Bible, should take on a limited, special sense of the world. It is assumed, that, because there are instances in Scripture, where “kosmos” is used in the sense, where the entire world is not intended (and I will not deny that this is indeed true), that this warrants this limited use in our present text. Is this a valid argument? The present context will prove beyond any doubt, that this is not only not the case, but, if the Calvinist would press this limited meaning here, to apply only to the “elect”, then it causes them problems.

Firstly, it might be shown, that there is not a single Greek lexicon that I know of, that says that “kosmos” here has a meaning that does not mean the “whole world” (that is, “everyone without exception).

J H Thayer

the inhabitants of the earth, the human race” (Lexicon, p.357)

W Ardnt & F Gingrich

the world as mankind…of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the objects of God’s love” (Lexicon, p.447)

Edward Robinson

the world for the inhabitants of the earth, men mankind” (Lexicon, p.440)

John Parkhurst

The world, i.e. the whole race of mankind, both believers and unbelievers, both good and bad” (Lexicon, p.336)

Are we to assume that all of the above lexicons are wrong in the meanings that they give for “kosmos”? There is no doubt to the honest mind, that the use of “kosmos” here can only mean “the whole human race”. To make it mean something less, is a distortion of the facts!

In our immediate context, “kosmos” is used four times, once in verse 16, and three times in verse 17. If we were to limit its use in verse 16, to refer only to the “elect”, then we must carry on this use in the following verse also. Where we read:

“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved”

Let is substitute the word “world” in each of these cases with “elect”, and see how it reads.

“For God did not send His Son into the elect to condemn the elect, but that the elect through Him might be saved”

If, as it is argued by some, that Christ only came to save the “elect”, then why would any mention ever be made about Him not coming to “condemn”, or “judge” the “elect”? These words have no meaning at all, if they are meant to be for the “elect” only. There would not be any reference made to any judgement or condemnation of the “elect”, as this is something that is not at all even a possibility. John 5: 24 says:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life”

The believer is said not to come into any “judgment”, or “condemnation”, as they have “passed from death into life”

Further, in verse 17 we read, that “the elect might be saved through Him” Here we have the Greek “sothe” (might be saved), which is in the subjunctive mood, which is used to denote “possibility”, in that it is not something “certain”. It is true, that as in verses 15 and 16, where the word apoletai (KJV “should not perish) is used, it is with the “hina” clause, which, though in the subjunctive mood, is yet in both cases “certain”, because in each case the negative “me” (me_apoletai) is used. This will then render the clause as “shall not perish”. However, in verse 17, even though “sothe” is used with “hina” (hina sothe), there is no negative particle used as in verse 15 and 16, which would require the clause to have the meaning of “possibility”, which is correctly rendered in English as “might be saved” Does this then mean, that the salvation of the “elect” is only a “possibility”? If we are to take the words to mean “shall be saved”, then we would expect Jesus to have said: “sothese”, as in Romans 10:9, “ That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

We should note, that in verses 15 and 16, “believes”, is in the Greek, “pisteuno”, which is the present, continuance, tense, literally, “continues to believe”.

We can only conclude from these facts, that there is no Biblical justification for us to take “kosmos” the this passage, to mean anything other than “the sum total of the human race”, and NOT as the Calvinist would have us believe, because of their theological bias found in the heresy of “Limited Atonement”, that it only refers to the “elect”. Can any honest mind doubt that this great passage is the hope of mankind, for salvation through our Great Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ?

Dr Robert Dabney, who was a Calvinist, has this to say on the use of “kosmos” here:

“In Jno.iii.16, make ‘the world’ which Christ loved, to mean ‘the elect world’, and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish…since Christ made expiation for every man” (Systematic Theology, p.525)

John's Calvin's own words on this passage are NOT "Calvinistic"!

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life."

Calvin's language clearly shows the "universal" offer (invitation) of the Gospel of Salvation in Jesus Christ, to "all men without exception". We would have expected the "Calvinistic" phrase instead, "all men without distinction", which is not the case. Calvin himself never did teach "Limited Atonement". Further, to offer the Gospel message for "the human race", can only mean that Jesus' death on the cross included the salvation of "the human race", otherwise this "offer, or invite" would be insincere. Calvin also says that this "invite" for salvation to "all men without exception", is for the purpose of eternal "life".

Calvin on Mark 14:24 must be added to this to further show his own position on the atonement, and who Jesus died for and who could be saved.

"Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one; as if he had said, that he will not be the Redeemer of one man only, but will die in order to deliver many from the condemnation of the curse"

This verse is speaking of the blood of Jesus which He shed on the cross for "the whole human race", as even Calvin acknowledges, which is impossible if Jesus died only for the "elect".

Only those who are more interested in their personal "theology", will continue to argue against the Word of God, and insist that John 3:16, and other passages in the Bible support their bias, regardless of whether it is right or wrong.
 
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St_Worm2

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Firstly, it might be shown, that there is not a single Greek lexicon that I know of, that says that “kosmos” here has a meaning that does not mean the “whole world” (that is, “everyone without exception).

Hi Christodoulos, that's interesting, because the very first lexicon I turned to tonight appears to say exactly that about "world" in John 3:16. Please take special note of the text in bold below, where v16 is referenced.

2889 κόσμος [kosmos /kos·mos/] n m. Probably from the base of 2865; TDNT 3:868; TDNTA 459; GK 3180; 187 occurrences; AV translates as “world” 186 times, and “adorning” once. 1 an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government. 2 ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3. 3 the world, the universe. 4 the circle of the earth, the earth. 5 the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race. 6 the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ. 7 world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly. 7A the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ. 8 any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort. 8A the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc). 8A of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:1 ~Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon.
That said, as a Calvinist, I believe v16 teaches this, that "whosoever believes .. shall not perish, but have everlasting life". Anything beyond that, IOW, whether κόσμος means 1) Jews AND Greeks (men and women from every nation, tribe and tongue, etc., not just Israel) which is what I believe (everyone w/o distinction), or 2) every man & woman who has ever lived w/o exception, is pure conjecture :preach:

If you'd like to discuss the "L" in TULIP, that's fine, but surely you can find better verses to use for that purpose than John 3:16 ;)

Yours and His,
David


"As many as had been appointed
to eternal life believed"

Acts 13:48
 
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Christodoulos

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Hi Christodoulos, that's interesting, because the very first lexicon I turned to tonight appears to say exactly that about "world" in John 3:16. Please take special note of the text in bold below, where v16 is referenced.

2889 κόσμος [kosmos /kos·mos/] n m. Probably from the base of 2865; TDNT 3:868; TDNTA 459; GK 3180; 187 occurrences; AV translates as “world” 186 times, and “adorning” once. 1 an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government. 2 ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3. 3 the world, the universe. 4 the circle of the earth, the earth. 5 the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race. 6 the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ. 7 world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly. 7A the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ. 8 any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort. 8A the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc). 8A of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:1 ~Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon.
That said, as a Calvinist, I believe v16 teaches this, that "whosoever believes .. shall not perish, but have everlasting life". Anything beyond that, IOW, whether κόσμος means 1) Jews AND Greeks (men and women from every nation, tribe and tongue, etc., not just Israel) which is what I believe (everyone w/o distinction), or 2) every man & woman who has ever lived w/o exception, is pure conjecture :preach:

If you'd like to discuss the "L" in TULIP, that's fine, but surely you can find better verses to use for that purpose than John 3:16 ;)

Yours and His,
David


"As many as had been appointed
to eternal life believed"

Acts 13:48

hello David, Strong's Dictionary is no authority of the Greek language when it comes to usage of any words. It only deals with the meaning that a word might have. We need to turn to lexical studies to give us the more exact meaning of any word, especially when used in certain contexts, and uses by writers in the New Testament, when meanings are not always what we would find in Greek. The Greek lexicons that I have given above are all authorities for scholars and students of Biblical Greek all around the world. It is these authorities that are turned to when Bible translations are made, and not Strong's Dictionary, which is there for those who know no, or hardly know any Greek. Your evidence is nothing of any importance.
 
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St_Worm2

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Ahh, but you said this:

......there is not a single Greek lexicon that I know of, that says that “kosmos” here has a meaning that does not mean the “whole world” (that is, “everyone without exception).

My "evidence" does show you this (if nothing else), you were wrong ;) Now you know, there is at least one lexicon (the most famous of them, in fact) that clearly states that κόσμος in John 3:16, does not mean, "everyone w/o exception".

In the end, we both believe this verse speaks of a "limited atonement" (no matter what meaning we finally decide to assign to κόσμος), unless you believe that "whosoever believes" AND "whosoever does not believe" will both be saved. Surely not :eek: However, if that is what you mean, that ALL w/o exception will be saved, then we need to move this discussion to the CT board, because discussions promoting a Universal Atonement are not allowed on this board.

If you want to discuss the "L" in TULIP, I would be happy to do so, but please pick another verse(s), because the use of John 3:16 for that purpose is pointless.

In Christ,
David
 
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com7fy8

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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

Here some Calvinists would have us believe, that the Greek word, “kosmos”, which is rendered “world” in all English versions of the Bible, should take on a limited, special sense of the world. It is assumed, that, because there are instances in Scripture, where “kosmos” is used in the sense, where the entire world is not intended (and I will not deny that this is indeed true), that this warrants this limited use in our present text. Is this a valid argument?
It says Jesus came because our Father so loved "the world". He could have said "us" if He meant only us who are saved.

Also, we have 1 Timothy 4:10 >

"For to this end we also labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

So, our Apostle Paul says God is "the Savior of all". So, for me "all" supports that Jesus came for the whole world. But there are ways that God does good to even those who do not believe. So, it is good for us to bless any and all people, in our prayer, and trust God to do any and all people whatsoever good He pleases :)
 
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Christodoulos

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I'm of the opinion that if you plucked the petal, "L" from the TULIP it wouldn't matter.

Well, that can't be right. If Jesus Christ has indeed died for the sins of the whole world without exception, and this includes every sinner, whether "elect" or "non-elect", this this renders the "U" in TULIP redundant, which teaches that Jesus's death is only for the "elect", who have been elected to eternal life before the world was. Universal Atonement means that ALL the world "could be saved". Then we have the same for "T", which is that the whole human race is "completely dead in sins", and only the "elect", because of who they are, can and will respond to the Gospel call, which the "non-elect" can never do, because they have not been "Atoned for". The "I" does not matter either, because there are millions who will hear the Gospel for Whom Jesus has died, but will reject it and not be saved. Which shows that the "Grace" of God to all mankind is not "irresistible", and the greater majority will indeed not be saved. Only the "P" can stand on its own, as it shows that those who have been truly born again, will not "lose their salvation".
 
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Christodoulos

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Ahh, but you said this:

......there is not a single Greek lexicon that I know of, that says that “kosmos” here has a meaning that does not mean the “whole world” (that is, “everyone without exception).

My "evidence" does show you this (if nothing else), you were wrong ;) Now you know, there is at least one lexicon (the most famous of them, in fact) that clearly states that κόσμος in John 3:16, does not mean, "everyone w/o exception".

In the end, we both believe this verse speaks of a "limited atonement" (no matter what meaning we finally decide to assign to κόσμος), unless you believe that "whosoever believes" AND "whosoever does not believe" will both be saved. Surely not :eek: However, if that is what you mean, that ALL w/o exception will be saved, then we need to move this discussion to the CT board, because discussions promoting a Universal Atonement are not allowed on this board.

If you want to discuss the "L" in TULIP, I would be happy to do so, but please pick another verse(s), because the use of John 3:16 for that purpose is pointless.

In Christ,
David

Maybe pointless to you, but not to John Calvin, Robert Dabney, and a bunch of other "Calvinsits", who reject that the Bible teaches "Limited Atonement". Calvinists have some spiritual "block" in their understanding. Jesus because the Bible teaches "Universal Atonement", does not mean that it must follow that "Universal Salvation" follows. This is a straw-man argument use by some desperate Calvinists who cannot accept that they could well be wrong!
 
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sdowney717

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Maybe pointless to you, but not to John Calvin, Robert Dabney, and a bunch of other "Calvinsits", who reject that the Bible teaches "Limited Atonement". Calvinists have some spiritual "block" in their understanding. Jesus because the Bible teaches "Universal Atonement", does not mean that it must follow that "Universal Salvation" follows. This is a straw-man argument use by some desperate Calvinists who cannot accept that they could well be wrong!

How do you define atonement?
 
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Christodoulos

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How do you define atonement?

Jesus Christ dying on the Cross for a world of lost sinners, thereby opening up the way for those who would confess their sins, and repent of them, and accept that His death and blood paid the price for their sins, and by fully believing in this, are forgiven and washed in the blood of Jesus which removes their sins and gives them eternal life.
 
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sdowney717

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Jesus Christ dying on the Cross for a world of lost sinners, thereby opening up the way for those who would confess their sins, and repent of them, and accept that His death and blood paid the price for their sins, and by fully believing in this, are forgiven and washed in the blood of Jesus which removes their sins and gives them eternal life.

The atonement is forgiveness of sins by the blood of Christ applied.
It had to be applied, you have to 'eat ' and 'drink' Christ or you have no part in Him.
So do unbelievers have the forgiveness of sins?

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

The forgiveness of sins is the atonement, a redemption by His blood.
Do unbelievers have the atonement?
Acts 13:37-39 King James Version (KJV)
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


Romans 1
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


Clearly the atonement is the forgiveness of sins and is only for believers in Christ. Do unbelievers go to hell with their sins forgiven?
 
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sdowney717

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Atonement

Atonement theologically speaks of God's acting in human history to reestablish the original relationship between God and man by dealing with sin. To atone means to make amends--to repair a wrong done. Biblically, it means to remove guilt of man. The Old Testament atonements offered by the high priest were temporary and a foreshadow of the real and final atonement made by Jesus. Jesus atoned for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). This atonement is received by faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9).

Man is a sinner (Rom. 5:8) and cannot atone for himself. Therefore, it was the love of the Father that sent Jesus (1 John 4:10) to die in our place (1 Pet. 3:18) for our sins (1 Pet. 2:24). Because of the atonement, our fellowship with God is restored (Rom. 5:10). (See Reconciliation).
Atonement | carm

Is fellowship with God restored for unbelievers in Christ?
Is the guilt of all men removed by the atonement of Christ, or only the guiltiness of believers?
 
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sdowney717

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I used to go to a church where the pastor preached that unbelievers go to hell with their individual sins fully paid for. So sort of their sins were forgiven them by the atonement, but since they don't believe in Christ, even though they have the atonement of sin they cant go to heaven.

Very sketch, IMO was his religious philosophies.
 
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Christodoulos

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The atonement is forgiveness of sins by the blood of Christ applied.
It had to be applied, you have to 'eat ' and 'drink' Christ or you have no part in Him.
So do unbelievers have the forgiveness of sins?

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

The forgiveness of sins is the atonement, a redemption by His blood.
Do unbelievers have the atonement?
Acts 13:37-39 King James Version (KJV)
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


Romans 1
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


Clearly the atonement is the forgiveness of sins and is only for believers in Christ. Do unbelievers go to hell with their sins forgiven?

Listen to what Jesus says:

"You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:38-40)

Sinners who go to hell do so because THEY REFUSE to accept what Jesus has done for them.
 
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sdowney717

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Listen to what Jesus says:

"You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:38-40)

Sinners who go to hell do so because THEY REFUSE to accept what Jesus has done for them.

Sinners don't come to Christ unless God is at work within them.
Example John 3, their deeds are wrought in God...
So they were God's workmanship. Notice those who do evil pull back from Christ, they refuse to come to Christ. But those that do come to Christ, are 'doing truth', and the only reason they can is because God was at work in them. And God was not working in the first group who refuse to come to Christ.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


People who do the truth are those who obey the gospel, which is to believe in Christ. And Christ says their deeds are wrought in GOD.
 
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sdowney717

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For those whose deeds are wrought in God, they will believe in Christ.
You can not come to Christ unless God grants that you do.
And all those He grants to come to Christ do come to Christ, all 100% of them.
John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

God's work never fails, His word accomplishes the purpose for which He sent it. You only believe because God wrought His work in you.
 
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St_Worm2

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Maybe pointless to you, but not to John Calvin, Robert Dabney, and a bunch of other "Calvinsits", who reject that the Bible teaches "Limited Atonement". Calvinists have some spiritual "block" in their understanding. Jesus because the Bible teaches "Universal Atonement", does not mean that it must follow that "Universal Salvation" follows. This is a straw-man argument use by some desperate Calvinists who cannot accept that they could well be wrong!
Just like Luther (who folks love to say taught us to "sin boldly"), understanding what Calvin actually believed takes a bit more effort than any one teaching excerpt will normally allow for. As for Limited Atonement, please grab his Institutes and read his views on the Divine predestination of the reprobate, a doctrine he referred to as "Decretum Horrible" (you will find any number of dramatized references to Decretum Horrible all over the Internet, but if you want to learn what Calvin actually believed, read his words, not theirs).

As for what Dabney actually believed, I would have to look that up (though there are certainly 4-point Calvinists out there, and he may be one of them .. Calvin and Luther are not however).

So, do you have any interest in beginning a general discussion about Limited Atonement here, or is getting at the Lord's intended meaning of κόσμος the only reason for this thread?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David



"No one can come to Me unless it has been
granted him from the Father"

John 6:65

 
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Well, that can't be right. If Jesus Christ has indeed died for the sins of the whole world without exception, and this includes every sinner, whether "elect" or "non-elect", this this renders the "U" in TULIP redundant, which teaches that Jesus's death is only for the "elect", who have been elected to eternal life before the world was. Universal Atonement means that ALL the world "could be saved". Then we have the same for "T", which is that the whole human race is "completely dead in sins", and only the "elect", because of who they are, can and will respond to the Gospel call, which the "non-elect" can never do, because they have not been "Atoned for". The "I" does not matter either, because there are millions who will hear the Gospel for Whom Jesus has died, but will reject it and not be saved. Which shows that the "Grace" of God to all mankind is not "irresistible", and the greater majority will indeed not be saved. Only the "P" can stand on its own, as it shows that those who have been truly born again, will not "lose their salvation".

You have very little understanding of Calvinism.
 
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Christodoulos

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For those whose deeds are wrought in God, they will believe in Christ.
You can not come to Christ unless God grants that you do.
And all those He grants to come to Christ do come to Christ, all 100% of them.
John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

God's work never fails, His word accomplishes the purpose for which He sent it. You only believe because God wrought His work in you.

so God created us as machines?
 
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