A Foot in Both Worlds

[FossMaNo1]

This is a subject I am passionate about: being genuine. But I am growing concerned that "being genuine" is not what our congregations want, nor is it what the world wants.

I am a new pastor (only been ordained since February) but have been serving as a full-time worship leader since August of 2015 and served in various roles in my church for years before that. One of the compliments I have always received (especially as a worship leader) has been that I am genuine. People do not perceive me as "putting on airs" or anything like that. I am honest about who I am and why I believe what I believe. I follow our Lord because I am convinced that it is only through Him that life is worth living. I am convinced that I should not hide my faith in Him because part of living a life through Him is the need to share Him with others. I do not drink alcohol, but not because of some "rule" but because when I do I can get "friendly" with women and I have no desire to make anyone else uncomfortable or to distress my wife in any way. I do my best to "do unto other as I'd have them do unto me" because I have seen that this attitude is far more effective than bullying others. I have plenty of failings (I am not patient with those who do not wish to truly listen to advice, only take up my time and theirs with complaining about heir "lot" in life; I like to hear myself talk; I have an ego that is way too easy to stroke; plus many more...), but I try to be honest about them and often use the as object lessons for others and a way to connect with them.

So, what does this have to do with people not actually wanting me to be genuine?

I am firmly convinced that we are supposed to cultivate relationships both within the church and without. I have friends who are not Christian who seem to like my company, up until I talk about my faith, my church life (which is my job, by the way...others can talk about their jobs, but not me!), how God has helped me through some tough times. At church, people only want to talk to me about either worship music or church business. There is no hint that I have a life or interests outside of the business of running church. I am a believer that your faith should interweave throughout all your life, not just be at church. The world should see my faith, but not as "that weird religious guy," but rather as a man who is of God but who is also approachable and will not judge them--a man who is here for them. Still, this attitude causes me to feel very lonely much of the time.

I see this line between "church" people and the rest of the world. And, yes, I know Jesus warned us that man would hate us for our faith but I don't believe that's what I am seeing. I am seeing "church" people withdrawing from the world so they are content and happy inside their own support structures (like the church) and not have to interact with those who need to know the Good News from them!

Should we as "church" people be a bit better at having one foot in both worlds?

 

[ToBeLoved]

This is a subject I am passionate about: being genuine. But I am growing concerned that "being genuine" is not what our congregations want, nor is it what the world wants.

I am a new pastor (only been ordained since February) but have been serving as a full-time worship leader since August of 2015 and served in various roles in my church for years before that. One of the compliments I have always received (especially as a worship leader) has been that I am genuine. People do not perceive me as "putting on airs" or anything like that. I am honest about who I am and why I believe what I believe. I follow our Lord because I am convinced that it is only through Him that life is worth living. I am convinced that I should not hide my faith in Him because part of living a life through Him is the need to share Him with others. I do not drink alcohol, but not because of some "rule" but because when I do I can get "friendly" with women and I have no desire to make anyone else uncomfortable or to distress my wife in any way. I do my best to "do unto other as I'd have them do unto me" because I have seen that this attitude is far more effective than bullying others. I have plenty of failings (I am not patient with those who do not wish to truly listen to advice, only take up my time and theirs with complaining about heir "lot" in life; I like to hear myself talk; I have an ego that is way too easy to stroke; plus many more...), but I try to be honest about them and often use the as object lessons for others and a way to connect with them.

So, what does this have to do with people not actually wanting me to be genuine?

I am firmly convinced that we are supposed to cultivate relationships both within the church and without. I have friends who are not Christian who seem to like my company, up until I talk about my faith, my church life (which is my job, by the way...others can talk about their jobs, but not me!), how God has helped me through some tough times. At church, people only want to talk to me about either worship music or church business. There is no hint that I have a life or interests outside of the business of running church. I am a believer that your faith should interweave throughout all your life, not just be at church. The world should see my faith, but not as "that weird religious guy," but rather as a man who is of God but who is also approachable and will not judge them--a man who is here for them. Still, this attitude causes me to feel very lonely much of the time.

I see this line between "church" people and the rest of the world. And, yes, I know Jesus warned us that man would hate us for our faith but I don't believe that's what I am seeing. I am seeing "church" people withdrawing from the world so they are content and happy inside their own support structures (like the church) and not have to interact with those who need to know the Good News from them!

Should we as "church" people be a bit better at having one foot in both worlds?

I don't look at it as having a 'foot in both worlds'. That verbage will probably bring you lots of conflict.

God's Word says we are to be "in" the world, but not "of" the world. Servants of Christ, not of the sin that is the world.

How I talk about God is usually, almost exclusively to refer to myself or others I know well. Someone cannot really argue with one's own experiences, so I keep it to what God has done for me.

Planting seeds.

 

[Albion]

People often want the pastor to be somewhat above their level, to be an authority figure. Therefore, you have to develop a style that is both friendly and unpretentious but also self-assured. If you "let down your hair" too openly or effect a too-chummy manner, it erodes that image that they want to have of you.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Should we as "church" people be a bit better at having one foot in both worlds?

The great commission wasn't about sitting in the safety of a church pew witnessing to each other. That being the case, we need to collectively talk more about God's love and less about His wrath.

 

[FossMaNo1]

If you "let down your hair" too openly or effect a too-chummy manner, it erodes that image that they want to have of you.

And that's the problem..."What they want" is entirely too much the object. Still, as a pastor I would not be very effective if I railed against their human nature. I need to find a way to address the shortsightedness of this attitude without putting people on the defensive.

 

[Adstar]

This is a subject I am passionate about: being genuine. But I am growing concerned that "being genuine" is not what our congregations want, nor is it what the world wants.

I am a new pastor (only been ordained since February) but have been serving as a full-time worship leader since August of 2015 and served in various roles in my church for years before that. One of the compliments I have always received (especially as a worship leader) has been that I am genuine. People do not perceive me as "putting on airs" or anything like that. I am honest about who I am and why I believe what I believe. I follow our Lord because I am convinced that it is only through Him that life is worth living. I am convinced that I should not hide my faith in Him because part of living a life through Him is the need to share Him with others. I do not drink alcohol, but not because of some "rule" but because when I do I can get "friendly" with women and I have no desire to make anyone else uncomfortable or to distress my wife in any way. I do my best to "do unto other as I'd have them do unto me" because I have seen that this attitude is far more effective than bullying others. I have plenty of failings (I am not patient with those who do not wish to truly listen to advice, only take up my time and theirs with complaining about heir "lot" in life; I like to hear myself talk; I have an ego that is way too easy to stroke; plus many more...), but I try to be honest about them and often use the as object lessons for others and a way to connect with them.

So, what does this have to do with people not actually wanting me to be genuine?

I am firmly convinced that we are supposed to cultivate relationships both within the church and without. I have friends who are not Christian who seem to like my company, up until I talk about my faith, my church life (which is my job, by the way...others can talk about their jobs, but not me!), how God has helped me through some tough times. At church, people only want to talk to me about either worship music or church business. There is no hint that I have a life or interests outside of the business of running church. I am a believer that your faith should interweave throughout all your life, not just be at church. The world should see my faith, but not as "that weird religious guy," but rather as a man who is of God but who is also approachable and will not judge them--a man who is here for them. Still, this attitude causes me to feel very lonely much of the time.

I see this line between "church" people and the rest of the world. And, yes, I know Jesus warned us that man would hate us for our faith but I don't believe that's what I am seeing. I am seeing "church" people withdrawing from the world so they are content and happy inside their own support structures (like the church) and not have to interact with those who need to know the Good News from them!

Should we as "church" people be a bit better at having one foot in both worlds?

Yes.. we should be better at having a foot in both worlds as you say.. Some people have thick skins and are natural at giving the gospel.. Does not matter if they are being shouted or spat upon they march on like theological terminators with only one objective no matter what the resistance.. But most religious people are reserved and don't want to argue and face hatred from aggressive mocking atheists in real life.. They want to avoid nasty situations..

Of course if some are put on the spot they have to stand up for their Faith.. But most want to avoid such things..

 

[Albion]

And that's the problem..."What they want" is entirely too much the object. Still, as a pastor I would not be very effective if I railed against their human nature. I need to find a way to address the shortiffersightedness of this attitude without putting people on the defensive.

We seem to have different perceptions of this thing. I don't consider what I suggested to be wrong, either on the part of the congregants or on the part of the pastor. But I may not have made my point well enough. It is primarily a matter of style, of the impression that's conveyed. The people do want to think of their pastor as knowing more about the business of religion than they do, just as we expect our elected officials and doctors to be comfortable and able in their positions. But it will require you to walk something of a fine line.

 

[Hall]

QUOTE="FossMaNo1, post: 71502387, member: 393573"] I am seeing "church" people withdrawing from the world so they are content and happy inside their own support structures (like the church) and not have to interact with those who need to know the Good News from them!

Should we as "church" people be a bit better at having one foot in both worlds?[/QUOTE]

I believe we should. What good does it do to be an example to others within the church when everyone in it is trying to do the same within it. To be an example to the fallen world around us is a little harder, and it is to be expected to endure tribulations while doing so. People will laugh at us, test us, put us down but these are the kinds of long sufferings that brings glory to God. So yes, we must not be ashamed of His name and walk His walk in the world.

 

[AlexDTX]

This is a subject I am passionate about: being genuine. But I am growing concerned that "being genuine" is not what our congregations want, nor is it what the world wants.

I am a new pastor (only been ordained since February) but have been serving as a full-time worship leader since August of 2015 and served in various roles in my church for years before that. One of the compliments I have always received (especially as a worship leader) has been that I am genuine. People do not perceive me as "putting on airs" or anything like that. I am honest about who I am and why I believe what I believe. I follow our Lord because I am convinced that it is only through Him that life is worth living. I am convinced that I should not hide my faith in Him because part of living a life through Him is the need to share Him with others. I do not drink alcohol, but not because of some "rule" but because when I do I can get "friendly" with women and I have no desire to make anyone else uncomfortable or to distress my wife in any way. I do my best to "do unto other as I'd have them do unto me" because I have seen that this attitude is far more effective than bullying others. I have plenty of failings (I am not patient with those who do not wish to truly listen to advice, only take up my time and theirs with complaining about heir "lot" in life; I like to hear myself talk; I have an ego that is way too easy to stroke; plus many more...), but I try to be honest about them and often use the as object lessons for others and a way to connect with them.

So, what does this have to do with people not actually wanting me to be genuine?

I am firmly convinced that we are supposed to cultivate relationships both within the church and without. I have friends who are not Christian who seem to like my company, up until I talk about my faith, my church life (which is my job, by the way...others can talk about their jobs, but not me!), how God has helped me through some tough times. At church, people only want to talk to me about either worship music or church business. There is no hint that I have a life or interests outside of the business of running church. I am a believer that your faith should interweave throughout all your life, not just be at church. The world should see my faith, but not as "that weird religious guy," but rather as a man who is of God but who is also approachable and will not judge them--a man who is here for them. Still, this attitude causes me to feel very lonely much of the time.

I see this line between "church" people and the rest of the world. And, yes, I know Jesus warned us that man would hate us for our faith but I don't believe that's what I am seeing. I am seeing "church" people withdrawing from the world so they are content and happy inside their own support structures (like the church) and not have to interact with those who need to know the Good News from them!

Should we as "church" people be a bit better at having one foot in both worlds?

Bravo! If I had a chance to know you in person, I would want to be your friend. I despise the hypocrisy of churchianity where people conform to the expectation of others than of Christ. We are called to live transparently before men and God.

Living a life like this will touch those who truly want to walk with Christ. Too many Christians only want fire insurance and do not really care about what God cares about. Few have been broken before the Lord weeping over those things that grieve God.

Your dilemma is simple. Either play the church game and make a good living, or walk with Christ in truth and lose your position as a pastor. If you choose the latter, you will be richly cared spiritually for by God. If you choose the former, you will have your material life but will sense a frustration of a shallow Christianity.

 

[ToBeLoved]

And that's the problem..."What they want" is entirely too much the object. Still, as a pastor I would not be very effective if I railed against their human nature. I need to find a way to address the shortsightedness of this attitude without putting people on the defensive.

Just be yourself because everyone else is taken. My pastor is very down to earth and shares his heart all the time in his sermons. I find that human of him and makes me realize we are all just doing our best for God.

Don't be someone you are not. I agree. God didn't create us to all be the same. So God must like personality.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Your dilemma is simple. Either play the church game and make a good living, or walk with Christ in truth and lose your position as a pastor. If you choose the latter, you will be richly cared spiritually for by God. If you choose the former, you will have your material life but will sense a frustration of a shallow Christianity.

Did I miss something? Why is his loosing his position as a pastor part of this discussion.

I didn't think that loosing his position was part of the problem.

 

[AlexDTX]

Did I miss something? Why is his loosing his position as a pastor part of this discussion.

I didn't think that loosing his position was part of the problem.

Losing his position is a possibility, not a foregone conclusion. But I know of several men who were pastors who lived transparently and lost their position, so it is a consideration.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Losing his position is a possibility, not a foregone conclusion. But I know of several men who were pastors who lived transparently and lost their position, so it is a consideration.

Well if he is in a Protestant church and follows what Paul says about what a pastor should be, he'll be fine. God's standards should be his churches standards. If not, I say find another church.

 

[AlexDTX]

Well if he is in a Protestant church and follows what Paul says about what a pastor should be, he'll be fine. God's standards should be his churches standards. If not, I say find another church.

Hopeful sentiment, but people are made up of all kinds. Those who follow Christ will be persecuted. Who persecutes? For the apostles it was the Jews. For the Protestants it was the Catholics. For the Anabaptists it was the Calvinists. Persecution does not come from without, it comes from within. If a member of the board of directors is hostile to the pastor's transparency, trouble can come.

 

[FossMaNo1]

Your dilemma is simple. Either play the church game and make a good living, or walk with Christ in truth and lose your position as a pastor. If you choose the latter, you will be richly cared spiritually for by God. If you choose the former, you will have your material life but will sense a frustration of a shallow Christianity.

I'm glad you pointed this out. Although I hadn't voiced it, losing my position as pastor is a concern. I don't know that this is an issue which has an immediate answer. I am currently attending Seminary and I am the first to admit that I need that education--I don't have all the answers and I certainly don't even know all the possibilities (education doesn't just teach you what is, it also teaches you what can be...it identifies possible doors for us to open). I know that God has set me on this path and I can't imagine He expects me to have the answer yet. Instead, I need to have patience in discovering what He has to teach me and faith that I will indeed get there. The rest (i.e., my future as a vocational minister) is in His hands.

 

[AlexDTX]

I'm glad you pointed this out. Although I hadn't voiced it, losing my position as pastor is a concern. I don't know that this is an issue which has an immediate answer. I am currently attending Seminary and I am the first to admit that I need that education--I don't have all the answers and I certainly don't even know all the possibilities (education doesn't just teach you what is, it also teaches you what can be...it identifies possible doors for us to open). I know that God has set me on this path and I can't imagine He expects me to have the answer yet. Instead, I need to have patience in discovering what He has to teach me and faith that I will indeed get there. The rest (i.e., my future as a vocational minister) is in His hands.

The Road Not Taken
by Robert Frost

TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth; 5

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same, 10

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back. 15

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

My advise: choose the road less taken. It is a greater adventure with Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hopeful sentiment, but people are made up of all kinds. Those who follow Christ will be persecuted. Who persecutes? For the apostles it was the Jews. For the Protestants it was the Catholics. For the Anabaptists it was the Calvinists. Persecution does not come from without, it comes from within. If a member of the board of directors is hostile to the pastor's transparency, trouble can come.

I hope he will not have to deal with these things

 

[DiscipleHeLovesToo]

This is a subject I am passionate about: being genuine. But I am growing concerned that "being genuine" is not what our congregations want, nor is it what the world wants.

I am a new pastor (only been ordained since February) but have been serving as a full-time worship leader since August of 2015 and served in various roles in my church for years before that. One of the compliments I have always received (especially as a worship leader) has been that I am genuine. People do not perceive me as "putting on airs" or anything like that. I am honest about who I am and why I believe what I believe. I follow our Lord because I am convinced that it is only through Him that life is worth living. I am convinced that I should not hide my faith in Him because part of living a life through Him is the need to share Him with others. I do not drink alcohol, but not because of some "rule" but because when I do I can get "friendly" with women and I have no desire to make anyone else uncomfortable or to distress my wife in any way. I do my best to "do unto other as I'd have them do unto me" because I have seen that this attitude is far more effective than bullying others. I have plenty of failings (I am not patient with those who do not wish to truly listen to advice, only take up my time and theirs with complaining about heir "lot" in life; I like to hear myself talk; I have an ego that is way too easy to stroke; plus many more...), but I try to be honest about them and often use the as object lessons for others and a way to connect with them.

So, what does this have to do with people not actually wanting me to be genuine?

I am firmly convinced that we are supposed to cultivate relationships both within the church and without. I have friends who are not Christian who seem to like my company, up until I talk about my faith, my church life (which is my job, by the way...others can talk about their jobs, but not me!), how God has helped me through some tough times. At church, people only want to talk to me about either worship music or church business. There is no hint that I have a life or interests outside of the business of running church. I am a believer that your faith should interweave throughout all your life, not just be at church. The world should see my faith, but not as "that weird religious guy," but rather as a man who is of God but who is also approachable and will not judge them--a man who is here for them. Still, this attitude causes me to feel very lonely much of the time.

I see this line between "church" people and the rest of the world. And, yes, I know Jesus warned us that man would hate us for our faith but I don't believe that's what I am seeing. I am seeing "church" people withdrawing from the world so they are content and happy inside their own support structures (like the church) and not have to interact with those who need to know the Good News from them!

Should we as "church" people be a bit better at having one foot in both worlds?

i see that you listed "Baptist" as your "Faith"; so i assume you serve in a Baptist church. yet this really doesn't tell me much about what you believe, as there are many 'sub-groups' that use the label 'Baptist', and yet subscribe to significantly different understandings or beliefs of what the "Christian faith" really is. and of course there are significant differences in beliefs between Baptists and Methodists, between Protestants and Catholics; etc., etc. etc.

so it would seem that although there are many false religions that do not believe the Bible is the written representation of the living Word of God, 'Christians' as the word is generally understood see all these groups as one group - the lost. and most 'Christians' see the different 'denominations' or 'Faiths' as one Body of Christ...

the point i'm trying to make is this; by claiming the "Baptist" "Faith", you already have your feet in multiple 'worlds' within the Body of Christ; unless you believe that only the sub-group of the "Baptist" "Faith" that you are a member of are the only real members of the Body of Christ, and the other "Baptist" sub-groups, along with the Methodists, Catholics, etc. are all just members of the 'lost' world. You've already withdrawn into a structure within the Body of Christ by claiming membership in the Baptist church. maybe this is what is really bothering you; not that the members of your church have segregated themselves from the lost world, but that you have segregated yourself from the rest of the Body of Christ; we only despise the things we see in others that we despise about ourselves...

but i could be wrong too; just food for thought

 

[AlexDTX]

I hope he will not have to deal with these things

Me too.

 

[FossMaNo1]

Maybe this is what is really bothering you; not that the members of your church have segregated themselves from the lost world, but that you have segregated yourself from the rest of the Body of Christ; we only despise the things we see in others that we despise about ourselves...

but i could be wrong too; just food for thought

Ouch...that might have hit rather close to the mark.