Predestination v Free Will

[sdowney717]

Jude writes to the elect

JudeNew King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

v5, those who did not believe (non elect) tagged along with the believing true to God elect Israel.
Same today, the warnings to the elect is to not be like them. As God will destroy the unbelievers.

Peter also write to the elect about their certain salvation.
Only God's elect are saved.

1 Peter 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

A Heavenly Inheritance
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[zippy2006]

Jesus talks about the will being bound to sin and Satan, and it is not free will that the unsaved experience, they are slaves, they are not free.
Consider that they are like having been drugged, under the influence - sway of Satan, who has blinded their minds to the freedom which we have in Christ.

So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. (Romans 8:12-13)​

Salvation is not some deterministic phenomena in which we have no choice. That is why St. Paul says, "If you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live." That is why John the Baptist preached repentance--so that the Jews might repent. That is why Jesus and the disciples preached the Kingdom of God--so that they might believe and be baptized:

But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (Acts 8:12)​

Calvinism undermines all of Christianity at the root.

 

[sdowney717]

Titus 1:1-3New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;

The elect are the people who have faith, and they also live and walk their life in acknowledgement of the truth and live their life according to a godly type of life style.

Paul warns that those who pursue after the lusts of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.
In a church you will have elect persons, and persons who are not of God.

Paul is telling these 'elect' believers, that they need to walk as Christ walked, 'turning the other cheek.'
He also reminds them they were made holy, justified by God.

In other places God tells believers they can choose to live their life according to the new man, or the old man. And that they will all be judged for the things done in the body, and their works may burn up so they receive no rewards, but their spirit only will be saved. 1 Corinthians 3

1 Corinthians 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[sdowney717]

So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. (Romans 8:12-13)​

Salvation is not some deterministic phenomena in which we have no choice. That is why St. Paul says, "If you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live." That is why John the Baptist preached repentance--so that the Jews might repent. That is why Jesus and the disciples preached the Kingdom of God--so that they might believe and be baptized:

But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (Acts 8:12)​

Calvinism undermines all of Christianity at the root.

Hardly, because only the elect will have faith and be saved.

 

[zippy2006]

Hardly, because only the elect will have faith and be saved.

Is this supposed to constitute a response to my post? It reads more like a Calvinist mantra than a response.

“The doctrine of Total Depravity – when the consequence is drawn that, since we are totally depraved, our idea of good is worth simply nothing – may thus turn Christianity into a form of devil-worship.” –C. S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain, pg. 29​

 

[sdowney717]

Is this supposed to constitute a response to my post? It reads more like a Calvinist mantra than a response.

“The doctrine of Total Depravity – when the consequence is drawn that, since we are totally depraved, our idea of good is worth simply nothing – may thus turn Christianity into a form of devil-worship.” –C. S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain, pg. 29​

Empty meaningless words. Of idle words man will give account to God.

 

[fhansen]

Everyone should examine themselves to see if they are actually in the faith, and therefore are of the elect.

No argument. We just cannot presume to know then with perfect knowledge whether or not we are.

 

[sdowney717]

No argument. We just cannot presume to know then with perfect knowledge whether or not we are.

I suppose so, however the apostles wrote with confidence towards various churches encouraging words.
John tells us God's people will have an anointing from Him to know the truth and will not depart the faith.

Scripture has many encouragements for His saints. If you fall away depart from Him and never return in faith to Christ, the Apostle John's first letter calls you an antichrist. All antichrists will eventually depart from the faith, permanently.

1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try todeceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

The Children of God
28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.


Philippians 1
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Philippians 3:20-21New King James Version (NKJV)
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

 

[fhansen]

I suppose so, however the apostles wrote with confidence towards various churches encouraging words.
John tells us God's people will have an anointing from Him to know the truth and will not depart the faith.

Yes, Scripture gives many words of encouragement, alongside words of warning. My main concern is that we aren't over-confident, rash or presumptuous in our self-analysis vis a vis salvation. We should have an assurance, yes, based on both interior and exterior experience of God working in our lives and changing us, but humility still demands that we're vigilant, that we strive, that we retain a little healthy fear. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Rom 11:21-22 And I think most of us do this in practice anyway, regardless of theology.

 

[fhansen]

Can bad soil make itself good?

When comparing soil to humans, yes. Because we can refuse to be fed-to receive the nutrients we need to build us up and produce the fruit God desires. We can refrain from hearing the Word, from receiving grace in whatever manner God wishes to give it, or to "invest" it as per the Parable of the Talents. We can refuse to ask, seek, and knock. We can allow worldly concerns to outweigh the importance of our walk with God. Etc, etc.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Calvinism undermines all of Christianity at the root.

Only for those who think their works are sufficient to obtain eternal life. For the rest of us sinners, it's the best of news we've ever heard.

 

[fhansen]

Only for those who think their works are sufficient to obtain eternal life. For the rest of us sinners, it's the best of news we've ever heard.

Unless they happen to be a sinner predestined to hell that is.

 

[Albion]

.

 

[zippy2006]

Only for those who think their works are sufficient to obtain eternal life.

Wrong again. This is a strawman so daft it is rare to see even a Calvinist commit it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Wrong again. This is a strawman so daft it is rare to see even a Calvinist commit it.

Are you aware of the Counsel of Trent? I'm pleased to say that according to Rome I am cured about 20 times over. Praise be to God for that! Christ came to seek and save sinners!

If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.

If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.​

 

[zippy2006]

Only for those who think their works are sufficient to obtain eternal life.

Wrong again. This is a strawman so daft it is rare to see even a Calvinist commit it.

Are you aware of the Counsel of Trent? I'm pleased to say that according to Rome I am cured about 20 times over. Praise be to God for that! Christ came to seek and save sinners!

If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.

If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.​

And where does it say, "Works are sufficient to obtain eternal life"? It doesn't say that anywhere.

Earlier in the thread we learned that you have very little knowledge of Calvinism. Now we have learned that you have very little knowledge of Catholicism. In light of this, perhaps it would be best if you stopped making statements about Calvinism and Catholicism.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

And where does it say, "Works are sufficient to obtain eternal life"? It doesn't say that anywhere.

That's the bottom line. Is it not? Grace alone doesn't save, right? Therefore, it's one's works, according to Rome, which are what earns eternal life.

 

[zippy2006]

That's the bottom line. Is it not? Grace alone doesn't save, right? Therefore, it's one's works, according to Rome, which are what earns eternal life.

No, not at all. Note that nothing in your quote from Trent says or implies that works are sufficient to obtain eternal life.

Now look at the first canon regarding justification:

Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.​

 

[fhansen]

That's the bottom line. Is it not? Grace alone doesn't save, right? Therefore, it's one's works, according to Rome, which are what earns eternal life.

People really should study-if they're going to comment on these things. Trent, session 6, chap VIII:

In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.​

"And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace."

IOW, faith is the beginning of our justification, not the be all and end all of it. And anything that precedes, leads to, or otherwise causes justification is a matter of grace.

 

[fhansen]

No, not at all. Note that nothing in your quote from Trent says or implies that works are sufficient to obtain eternal life.

Now look at the first canon regarding justification:

Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.​

Zippy, direct me to your translation of Trent. I'd swear King James had a hand in all the ones I've found-if I didn't know better.