Predestination v Free Will

[com7fy8]

According to Zippy >

It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert?

Well, I understand how God is in absolute all-control, and I have been offering various scriptures about this. But I do not accept that God actually causes any evil. But He manages which way evil and its people go.

"God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. By means of resistance, He controls the proud. And I consider that His light burns the evil spirit, so it goes in His control. It is like how you can have healthy skin because of sunshine, but a worm on the sidewalk will burn in the same loving sunshine which has helped you to have vitamin D for healthy skin and bones. His light hits Satan and he burns on his way to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone. It depends on the nature of what the light hits; light can bring out one's true nature.

And in James 3:13 James says "God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone."

So @jiummyjimmy this is good, how God is in such control that evil can not tempt Him plus He does not tempt anyone. Plus, to me this means we need to have an issue with what >

Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as he will, whether to good for His mercy’s sake, or to evil according to their merits.

James says God does not tempt anyone. So, to me this means God would not cause a person's will to do evil. But John would need to speak for himself, about what he really means. After some translation and how ones imperfect have been able to understand John, I won't jump to a conclusion about what John Calvin really wrote and meant.

However . . . . . . . I do understand how God is in absolute control of which way evil and its vessels go and what evil does or does not do . . . on the way to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone.

Possibly inclining means like having a set trench for where sewage will flow. The trench inclines the sewage, as to where it can go, but the trench does not actually cause the sewage to smell and do nasty things; but it limits where the sewage can go and what it can do . . . on its way away.

And with God we can make sure we don't have any of that stuff in us

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Like I said in my last, I am only willing to take one issue at a time. Are you willing and able, with all that humility you profess to possess, to admit that your objection in this post contradicts John Calvin's belief in necessity?

You often say something, do not support it, receive a challenge on that thing, and then ignore the challenge and run onto the next topic. That's what you're doing here. I'm not going to entertain new topics until you address the challenge.

I was on one thing. Very narrow question. If you want to quit, fair well.

 

[zippy2006]

I was on one thing. Very narrow question.

In this post I essentially said, "Yes, I do believe that, but I am not going to move onto the new topic until you have addressed the old." You immediately moved to the new topic, failing to address the old.

If you want to quit, fair well.

I look forward to conversation with a Calvinist who is able to support his statements, hold to the teachings of John Calvin, and answer objections without constantly changing the subject.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

so I am sure this has been hashed and again about a million times. But it is fun to talk about. The issue is the pride men have in refusing to acknowledge they may be wrong. So let's discuss in humility.

PREDESTINATION
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:29-30‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” Ephesians‬ ‭1:4-5, 11‬ ‭ESV‬‬

FREE WILL
“This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."” ‭‭Joshua‬ ‭24:15‬ ‭ESV

So I have laid out a couple scriptures purporting to support each view. What do you think?

Many people over-emphasize the love of God, but ignore the justice of God. As much as God is love, God also hates sins. So even though God would want all people to be saved, He does not tolerate sins, as is written, the wages of sin is death.

Salvation is similar to how God chose to save Noah while destroying the rest of mankind with the flood without taking away anyone's free will:

The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. (Genesis 6:5-8)

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. (Genesis 6:9)

Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. (Genesis 6:11-13)

 

[OzSpen]

My thought is this:

God knows all things. He can see into the future and know who will and will not accept him. This in his knowledge he has predestined those whom he knew would accept his message. This does not negate free will, as it merely states God knows who will accept him.

God clearly wants all people to be saved. So either his will is unable to do as it pleases. Or all people will be saved regardless of faith (Universalism) Or there is another aspect at play here.

God reaches out to all people in love. Each person must respond to the call. God in his foreknowledge knew who would respond and thus the person has been "foreknown and predestined".

That seems to be a view of predestination/election that is promoted by 1 Peter 1:1-2 (ESV):

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you.​

Oz

 

[sdowney717]

Then do not dishonestly deny the necessity that Calvin so plainly affirms.

God causes everything and of necessity, that is, in accordance with his providence. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 253)

Everything that happens, happens of necessity, as God has ordained. (ibid. 258)​

What is your agenda by these posts on Calvin, do you personally agree with them or are you playing a game? I see you say your Catholic, and Calvin was definitely not a fan of the Roman church. The catholics would have burned Calvin as heretic had they the chance.

 

[Albion]

I look forward to conversation with a Calvinist who is able to support his statements, hold to the teachings of John Calvin, and answer objections without constantly changing the subject.

I am sure that if you take your issues to the Reformed forum (Semper Reformanda), you will get responses of the sort you are hoping for.

 

[fhansen]

so I am sure this has been hashed and again about a million times. But it is fun to talk about. The issue is the pride men have in refusing to acknowledge they may be wrong. So let's discuss in humility.

PREDESTINATION
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:29-30‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” Ephesians‬ ‭1:4-5, 11‬ ‭ESV‬‬

FREE WILL
“This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."” ‭‭Joshua‬ ‭24:15‬ ‭ESV

So I have laid out a couple scriptures purporting to support each view. What do you think?

It's not either/or but both/and. We can't possibly be justified and saved without God's help, and yet He won't force it; we can always, at any point, say "no". Man's will is never completely compromised or overridden by either sin or by God.

In fact, the will is the "prize" so to speak; God seeks to draw creation-us- without force, into alignment with His, perfect, will, and increasingly so depending on whatever time and gifts we're given here on earth. This is a work of His, of cultivating and ultimately perfecting His creation.

 

[sdowney717]

It's not either/or but both/and. We can't possibly be justified and saved without God's help, and yet He won't force it; we can always, at any point, say "no".

Except none say no, all those who are given to Christ by God are taught by the Holy Spirit, considering the absoluteness of what Jesus says.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Of the group of people given, all will come to Christ and be saved, every single one, none are lost that God gives to Christ.

That they come and are saved means God gives them to Christ before they come to Christ in belief and faith.

So those He gives, He predestined to come to Christ and be saved, It is really very simple.

Some people definitely do not like Christ's doctrine, and they will modify it. In Jesus's day, many of His disciple left off following Christ because of His words spoken in John 6, because they did not like them. Jesus calls them unbelievers who departed from Him.

 

[Albion]

He won't force it; we can always, at any point, say "no". Man's will is never completely compromised or overridden by either sin or by God.

Can we? And why would we? Free will advocates talk as though it's a toss-up whether Man wants to be happy or, on the other hand, be extinguished in pain and torment. Ask around and see how many insist on having it be the latter.

 

[sdowney717]

John 6

63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.

65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.

66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Except none say no, all those who are given to Christ by God are taught by the Holy Spirit, considering the absoluteness of what Jesus says.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Of the group of people given, all will come to Christ and be saved, every single one, none are lost that God gives to Christ.

That they come and are saved means God gives them to Christ before they come to Christ in belief and faith.

So those He gives, He predestined to come to Christ and be saved, It is really very simple.

Some people definitely do not like Christ's doctrine, and they will modify it. In Jesus's day, many of His disciple left off following Christ because of His words spoken in John 6, because they did not like them. Jesus calls them unbelievers who departed from Him.

Great point, and I appreciate that your posts are always filled with scripture.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Can we? And why would we? Free will advocates talk as though it's a toss-up whether Man wants to be happy or, on the other hand, be extinguished in pain and torment. Ask around and see how many insist on having it be the latter.

For your dinner, would you like a ribeye steak or a pile of cow dung?

Not really a choice, yet no one is forcing me. . .

 

[fhansen]

Except none say no, all those who are given to Christ by God are taught by the Holy Spirit, considering the absoluteness of what Jesus says.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Of the group of people given, all will come to Christ and be saved, every single one, none are lost that God gives to Christ.

That they come and are saved means God gives them to Christ before they come to Christ in belief and faith.

So those He gives, He predestined to come to Christ and be saved, It is really very simple.

So does this mean that all who claim to believe in Christ will be saved? All who say "Lord, Lord..."? The "problem" is that we don't know with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not, who will persevere and who will not; that's God's province alone. So, yes, the elect are the elect-this much we know.

And we also know that some can taste of the heavenly gift and then fall away, some can be branches grafted in and later cut off, poor soil where the seed nevertheless first takes root but later withers and dies, etc, etc. And this is why believers are continuously admonished in Scripture to refrain from sin, remain faithful, remain in Christ, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, be holy, be perfect, be vigilant, keep oil in their lamps, invest their talents, etc, etc-with the very loss of place in the kingdom generally at stake.

 

[fhansen]

Can we? And why would we? Free will advocates talk as though it's a toss-up whether Man wants to be happy or, on the other hand, be extinguished in pain and torment. Ask around and see how many insist on having it be the latter.

People do lots of stupid things in pursuit of happiness...that leave them miserable. Some just prefer themselves-their cold, selfishness pride -over love, over God.

In this life we're being asked and drawn into choosing justice, into participating in it to whatever extent we can with the help of grace given, before we're rewarded with that final gift that promises complete and total happiness.

 

[sdowney717]

So does this mean that all who claim to believe in Christ will be saved? All who say "Lord, Lord..."? The "problem" is that we don't know with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not, who will persevere and who will not; that's God's province alone. So, yes, the elect are the elect-this much we know.

And we also know that some can taste of the heavenly gift and then fall away, some can be branches grafted in and later cut off, poor soil where the seed nevertheless first takes root but later withers and dies, etc, etc. And this is why believers are continuously admonished in Scripture to refrain from sin, remain faithful, remain in Christ, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, be holy, be perfect, be vigilant, keep oil in their lamps, invest their talents, etc, etc-with the very loss of place in the kingdom generally at stake.

Regarding actually being saved, and since all who are predestined are saved, and you can not come to Christ unless God grants you do, it does not matter, any of the others who fall away were not predestined to come to Christ. What Christ is talking about is an actual salvation, realized on the last DAY, those who are actually saved, not some pseudo fake salvation.

John 6
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day

 

[jimmyjimmy]

And we also know that some can taste of the heavenly gift and then fall away, some can be branches grafted in and later cut off, poor soil where the seed nevertheless first takes root but later withers and dies, etc, etc.

Can bad soil make itself good?

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus talks about the will being bound to sin and Satan, and it is not free will that the unsaved experience, they are slaves, they are not free.
Consider that they are like having been drugged, under the influence - sway of Satan, who has blinded their minds to the freedom which we have in Christ.

Jesus says a slave does not abide in the house forever, they are going to be gone, they will pass away from God's field the world and the sons will inherit the house of God. The kingdom, the earth, everything will be given to the saints of the most High God and the wicked slaves of sin who are bound by their nature never having been transformed as new creations in Christ, will have nothing.

John 8

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

 

[fhansen]

Regarding actually being saved, and since all who are predestined are saved, and you can not come to Christ unless God grants you do, it does not matter, any of the others who fall away were not predestined to come to Christ. What Christ is talking about is an actual salvation, realized on the last DAY, those who are actually saved, not some pseudo fake salvation.

John 6
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day

I don't what a "pseudo fake salvation" might be, other than someone who claims to believe for some reason while not believing. But that's not who the admonishments are aimed at. In fact, there would be no need or reason for admonishments at all if the will of those involved played no part, if not for the possibility of them turning to God, then falling away IOW. But, yes, as I said the elect or predestined are the elect or predestined; we just don't know with certainty who they are.

 

[sdowney717]

I don't what a "pseudo fake salvation" might be, other than someone who claims to believe for some reason while not believing. But that's not who the admonishments are aimed at. In fact, there would be no need or reason for admonishments at all if the will of those involved played no part, if not for the possibility of them turning to God, then falling away IOW. But, yes, as I said the elect or predestined are the elect or predestined; we just don't know with certainty who they are.

To be consistent with Christ's word, only the 'elect' obtain salvation, while the rest are blinded.

2 Corinthians 4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


Romans 8, here Paul describes the linear salvation process behind the scenes.
All these believers are elect, as are you, if you actually do persevere until the end.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Yes, there are warnings, with the idea to not be like them that fall away having evil hearts of unbelief.
Everyone should examine themselves to see if they are actually in the faith, and therefore are of the elect.