Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

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Major1

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Graven image. Are they graven? To you? Yes. To Catholics no. Why? Because Catholics do not worship statues etc.

Again;

Do Chinese worship each other when they bow?

Do people worship a King when they bow to them?

Reverence.......

Much like the statue or the cross, it is in reverence that people bow. Reverence to what that statue represents to that person.

Now, also, God knows what's in that persons heart.

You are judging left right and centre Major1. I thought you were strict in your faith? Does it say not to judge?

NO! In fact the Bible teaches Christians to judge my friend.

People that say we are not to judge are just trying to get away from accountability or are hiding something they do not want others to know.

Matt. 23:23............
“You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?”

1 Corth. 6:9-10............
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God”.

Homosexuals are going to hell. Isn't that judgmental and not very politically correct?

John 7:19..............
as not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. . . . Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

Isn't that judgmental?
 
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kepha31

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This was given by God specifically to the people of that time. They were very prone to worship ANYTHING!

This is VERY obvious as God knows that no Catholic / Christian would ever make an image and worship it.

Only you believe that Catholics do.
How many times do you have to be told? There is nothing in scripture that says ALL bowing is worship! You are re-writing scripture to force it into your preconceptions.
YOU amaze me! You state for us to "END THIS" and produce something else in the Scriptures except Ex. 20:4-5 as if it requires more than one Bible verse to constitute Bible truth.

I did exactly as you asked and here YOU are still coming back for more. Why don't you just leave it alone as you said you wanted to and end it?????

I certainly agree that idolatry is a mater of the heart. However to ignore and reject the obvious practice of the Catholic church today that bow before statues and icons, is a practice forbidden by God’s Word whether you choose to ignore it, spin it away or rationalize it. IT IS WHAT IT IS no matter how you try to explain it.
It has been repeatedly and carefully explained, that Catholics do not worship idols, you are just too prejudiced to accept the facts. It's also clear in the official catechism, that you reject anyway. You are too proud to be taught.

The significance God places upon it is reflected in the fact that the first of the Ten Commandments refers to idolatry iin Ex. 20:4-5 AND the other texts I posted for you...........
“You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me”.
Again, you overlook "WORSHIP" of a man made object. That's what makes it an idol. Worship of anything other than God has been condemned as idolatry for over 12 centuries before the first reformer was born.

There is no middle of the road as you are trying to offer.

Rev. 3:15-16............
"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. "

Instead of "Ending This" you are welcome to continue, but I must tell you that your argument is not with me at all. You are simply doing what you want to do in spite of what the clear Word of God says to not do.
It's your opinion of what the clear word of God says, and you are wrong.

So then, DO IT but you can stop trying to rationalize it with me.
Scripture doesn't fit your preconceptions

God condemns the sin of idolatry, whether in the form of worshipping statues, or stock options, or sex, or power, or a new car, any thing as an idol. But He does not prohibit religious images provided they are used properly. For example, in Exodus chapter 25 God commands Moses to carve statues of angels.
(Exodus 25:1, Exodus 25:18-20, Exodus 25:22; cf. Exodus 26:1).

This shows clearly that there are circumstances in which religious images are not merely permissible but actually pleasing to God. God is commanding idolatry according to you.

Another example is the rather humorous incident described in 1 Samuel 6:1-18

1 Kings 6:12 -12-14
This statement is important because the Temple contained a vast number of statues and images including angels, trees, flowers, oxen, and lions (cf. 1 Kings 6:23-35, 7:25, 36). Solomon’s decision to include these religious images came from the gift of wisdom God had blessed him with (cf. 1 Kings 3:1-28).

And far from being displeased by such images, “the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually” (1 Kings 9:3).

Obviously, God would not have blessed Solomon and “hallowed” his temple filled with statues and images if He did not approve of them — further proof that images can be good when used to order our minds toward God and heavenly realities.

Remember too that St. Paul called Christ “the express image” of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). The Greek word here for “image” is eikonos, from which we derive the word “icon.”
http://patrickmadrid.com/did-you-hear-the-one-about-catholics-worshiping-statues/

You may object and say the items in the Temple were not worshiped. Fair enough. Neither are statues.
And I don't think you have mind reading abilities to know the hearts and minds of devout Catholics. Just shallow observations.
 
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Major1

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Really you have no excuse for this nonsense. The Buddhists have statues of Buddha, but nobody is dumb ebougfh to believe they thnk it's him, and they worship him. As far as I know, they don't, either offically or unofficially. Heck, I doubt if Satanists are that dumb.

I don't believe the ancient Israeites were dumb enough to believe a statue of a calf made by their own hands was a god. What they had probably learnt was that if they made an image of something and treated it as a talisman to invite a demigod, an 'appropiate' demon would animate it, as and when required, and it would serve as their idol/god.

There is reason to believe that a spiritual vortex is created by the prayers of worshippers at holy shrines, perhaps making the presence of saints, such as Our Lady, (according to the shrine), feel more palpable, thereby feeding the person's devotion to God. They can concentrate better.

I don't do it, or have done it very seldom, as I wasn't brought up to do it, so I don't feel the need, but I very much envy cradle Catholics and all those who do kneeel before statues of he saints. For that matter statues of Jesus. Do you think we believe statues of Jesus are the real Jesus ? Some of you are so literal-minded - except for honouring Our Lady, for example - you haven't got the sense you were born with.

You are free to have your opinion. I can not agree with you on this and since you have only your opinions and NO Scriptures to validate that opinion I will leave it as you left it. Your thoughts and nothing more.

If you find any Scripture I would be glad to speak to it.

However, "I think" and "I do not think" and "As far as I know" simply do not do anything for me.

You see........."I think" that President Obama was the greatest president to ever have lived.
Is that true. Probably not to most but it is what "I THINK".

So what does it mean..............."NOTHING" to anyone except you.
 
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Major1

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How many times do you have to be told? There is nothing in scripture that says ALL bowing is worship! You are re-writing scripture to force it into your preconceptions.
It has been repeatedly and carefully explained, that Catholics do not worship idols, you are just too prejudiced to accept the facts. It's also clear in the official catechism, that you reject anyway. You are too proud to be taught.

Again, you overlook "WORSHIP" of a man made object. That's what makes it an idol. Worship of anything other than God has been condemned as idolatry for over 12 centuries before the first reformer was born.

It's your opinion of what the clear word of God says, and you are wrong.

Scripture doesn't fit your preconceptions

God condemns the sin of idolatry, whether in the form of worshipping statues, or stock options, or sex, or power, or a new car, any thing as an idol. But He does not prohibit religious images provided they are used properly. For example, in Exodus chapter 25 God commands Moses to carve statues of angels.
(Exodus 25:1, Exodus 25:18-20, Exodus 25:22; cf. Exodus 26:1).

This shows clearly that there are circumstances in which religious images are not merely permissible but actually pleasing to God. God is commanding idolatry according to you.

Another example is the rather humorous incident described in 1 Samuel 6:1-18

1 Kings 6:12 -12-14
This statement is important because the Temple contained a vast number of statues and images including angels, trees, flowers, oxen, and lions (cf. 1 Kings 6:23-35, 7:25, 36). Solomon’s decision to include these religious images came from the gift of wisdom God had blessed him with (cf. 1 Kings 3:1-28).

And far from being displeased by such images, “the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually” (1 Kings 9:3).

Obviously, God would not have blessed Solomon and “hallowed” his temple filled with statues and images if He did not approve of them — further proof that images can be good when used to order our minds toward God and heavenly realities.

Remember too that St. Paul called Christ “the express image” of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). The Greek word here for “image” is eikonos, from which we derive the word “icon.”
http://patrickmadrid.com/did-you-hear-the-one-about-catholics-worshiping-statues/

You may object and say the items in the Temple were not worshiped. Fair enough. Neither are statues.
And I don't think you have mind reading abilities to know the hearts and minds of devout Catholics.

I can not agree with you. All you are doing is rationalizing.

Again. IT is your choice. DO IT. You do not need to keep disagreeing with me.

I do not care if you do it or you do not. All I am saying and have said is that it is not Biblical.
 
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Goatee

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Can you post from the Bible which you say the Catholic church gave to the world the Scripture where Apostolic succession is found.

Now, the comment that the world is in debt to the RCC for the Bible is another of their attempts to exalt the church as an authority in addition to the Bible.

I appreciate your faithfulness to your church but IMO it was God who delivered it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and declared that it would abide forever.

2 Tim. 3:16...........
"All scripture is inspired of God...".

2 Peter 1:21.........
"...Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.".

Matt. 24:35..............
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." .

1 Peter 1:24-25..........
"The grass withered, and the flower has fallen--but the word of the Lord endures forever."

It is my humble opinion that the Catholics are wrong, therefore, in their assumption that the Bible is authoritative only because of the Catholic Church. The Bible does not owe its existence to the Catholic Church, but to the authority, power and providence of God.

Waw! You are so confused aren't you my friend.
 
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Major1

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Really you have no excuse for this nonsense. The Buddhists have statues of Buddha, but nobody is dumb ebougfh to believe they thnk it's him, and they worship him. As far as I know, they don't, either offically or unofficially. Heck, I doubt if Satanists are that dumb.

I don't believe the ancient Israeites were dumb enough to believe a statue of a calf made by their own hands was a god. What they had probably learnt was that if they made an image of something and treated it as a talisman to invite a demigod, an 'appropiate' demon would animate it, as and when required, and it would serve as their idol/god.

There is reason to believe that a spiritual vortex is created by the prayers of worshippers at holy shrines, perhaps making the presence of saints, such as Our Lady, (according to the shrine), feel more palpable, thereby feeding the person's devotion to God. They can concentrate better.

I don't do it, or have done it very seldom, as I wasn't brought up to do it, so I don't feel the need, but I very much envy cradle Catholics and all those who do kneeel before statues of he saints. For that matter statues of Jesus. Do you think we believe statues of Jesus are the real Jesus ? Some of you are so literal-minded - except for honouring Our Lady, for example - you haven't got the sense you were born with.

You said.........."really you have no excuse for this nonsense."

LOL>>>>>>>>I agree 100%. So then why are you and others so eager to argue and disagree?????

There are at least two people who I have begged to stop talking with me about this and still they keep coming back again and again posting the same things over and over like that is going to make their thought acceptable.

It is almost like they are venting to substantiate their belief in something that is never going to be believable to me.

Don't you find that interesting????
 
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Major1

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Was! You are so confused aren't you my friend.

Ugly.......yes, confused No.

By the way, what is that Bible verse that validate Apostolic succession which ends with the Pope?
 
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Goatee

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You said.........."really you have no excuse for this nonsense."

LOL>>>>>>>>I agree 100%. So then why are you and others so eager to argue and disagree?????

There are at least two people who I have begged to stop talking with me about this and still they keep coming back again and again posting the same things over and over like that is going to make their thought acceptable.

It is almost like they are venting to substantiate their belief in something that is never going to be believable to me.

Don't you find that interesting????

Nobody is coming back to you. Please, come down off of your pedestal. You keep replying as we do.

You will never persuade me of you interpretation of scripture either!
 
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Goatee

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Ugly.......yes, confused No.

By the way, what is that Bible verse that validate Apostolic succession which ends with the Pope?

You know very well, that if a passage was quoted you would try and shoot it down with YOUR own interpretation! Lol
 
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FenderTL5

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You said.........."really you have no excuse for this nonsense."

LOL>>>>>>>>I agree 100%. So then why are you and others so eager to argue and disagree?????

There are at least two people who I have begged to stop talking with me about this and still they keep coming back again and again posting the same things over and over like that is going to make their thought acceptable.

It is almost like they are venting to substantiate their belief in something that is never going to be believable to me.

Don't you find that interesting????
(Answering the last sentence in your post)
With deference to our Catholic friends; the topic is, "Catholics, what do you believe.."
As long as you keep challenging them, I would presume they will keep responding.
 
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Major1

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You know very well, that if a passage was quoted you would try and shoot it down with YOUR own interpretation! Lol

I was just playing with you . Actually there is NO Bible verse at all which validate Apostolic succession.
 
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Major1

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Nobody is coming back to you. Please, come down off of your pedestal. You keep replying as we do.

You will never persuade me of you interpretation of scripture either!

Not me friend. I am afraid of heights.
 
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paul becke

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You said.........."really you have no excuse for this nonsense."

LOL>>>>>>>>I agree 100%. So then why are you and others so eager to argue and disagree?????

There are at least two people who I have begged to stop talking with me about this and still they keep coming back again and again posting the same things over and over like that is going to make their thought acceptable.

It is almost like they are venting to substantiate their belief in something that is never going to be believable to me.

Don't you find that interesting????
Hope springs eternal. A theological virtue, no less.
 
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Albion

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I was just playing with you . Actually there is NO Bible verse at all which validate Apostolic succession.
There are a few hints, but it is mainly a policy that's derived from the decisions made by first century Christians. The real problem with Apostolic Succession comes in when the different versions of it are addressed. I had to say that because you continued on an off-topic subject, but let's stick to the Mary question.
 
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Major1

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(Answering the last sentence in your post)
With deference to our Catholic friends; the topic is, "Catholics, what do you believe.."
As long as you keep challenging them, I would presume they will keep responding.

Fair enough. Lets see!
There are a few hints, but it is mainly a policy that's derived from the decisions made by first century Christians. The real problem with Apostolic Succession comes in when the different versions of it are addressed. I had to say that because you continued on an off-topic subject, but let's stick to the Mary question.

It is nothing that I would argue over, but personally I do not believe that there is anything that leads one to believe that.
 
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paul becke

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You said.........."really you have no excuse for this nonsense."

LOL>>>>>>>>I agree 100%. So then why are you and others so eager to argue and disagree?????

There are at least two people who I have begged to stop talking with me about this and still they keep coming back again and again posting the same things over and over like that is going to make their thought acceptable.

'It is almost like they are venting to substantiate their belief in something that is never going to be believable to me.'

Don't you find that interesting????

And you think we're going to end up believing your man-made, heretical tosh, because you keep coming back, to fulminate some more, Major Major ? Before you respond, you might like to wipe the flecks of spittle off your lapels. If you do that - no don't thank me - and you tell me if you think we mistake statues of Jesus for the actual Jesus, maybe we'll be able to start taking you a little seriously. If only to persevere in our efforts to correct you ; depending on the promise or otherwise you show with your answer.
 
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bbbbbbb

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And you think we're going to end up believing your man-made, heretical tosh, because you keep coming back, to fulminate some more, Major Major ? Before you respond, you might like to wipe the flecks of spittle off your lapels. If you do that - no don't thank me - and you tell me if you think we mistake statues of Jesus for the actual Jesus, maybe we'll be able to start taking you a little seriously. If only to persevere in our efforts to correct you ; depending on the promise or otherwise you show with your answer.

Ah yes. The sure and certain indication of defeat - sarcasm and belittlement.
 
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