Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

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Major1

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So, why are YOU judging the CC when in reality it is God that can see what you cannot? God can judge. He can see into our hearts.

You are interpreting what you read incorrectly, as has been pointed out to you by a few now!

You have asked that question before. I will give you the same answer.

I am NOT anti-Catholic. I am not judging the Catholic religion.
I am pro-Jesus and pro-Bible.

I know you do not believe that because you are a Catholic and sometimes it is hard to see the trees because of the forest. That mean that anyone who says something against what we believe we automatically become defensive and the messenger becomes the enemy.

I am and have posted Scriptures and made comments on them. You and others are either not that informed in Bible teachings or you simply choose to believe traditions above and beyond Bible truth.
Please forgive me as I know how arrogant that sounds and I do not mean to come across that way. It is clear however that some of you struggle with some of the most fundamental Bible truths.

I mean, you see that I am discussing "Bowing" down with another member. We have spent many pages on this and it comes down to either accepting what the Bible says or working to make it say what we want it to say.

YOU are welcome to tell me that you disagree me all you want and I can and will do the same to you.

In the future, do us both a favor and tell me the Scriptures you disagree with, and why that I post to support my views.
 
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Major1

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I agree, satan is a great deceiver. So be careful what you believe and who you judge as old Nick could be pulling the strings!

AGREED 100%.

That is once again the exact reason why I am pro-Bible and not pro-religion.
 
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Goatee

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You have asked that question before. I will give you the same answer.

I am NOT anti-Catholic. I am not judging the Catholic religion.
I am pro-Jesus and pro-Bible.

I know you do not believe that because you are a Catholic and sometimes it is hard to see the trees because of the forest. That mean that anyone who says something against what we believe we automatically become defensive and the messenger becomes the enemy.

I am and have posted Scriptures and made comments on them. You and others are either not that informed in Bible teachings or you simply choose to believe traditions above and beyond Bible truth.
Please forgive me as I know how arrogant that sounds and I do not mean to come across that way. It is clear however that some of you struggle with some of the most fundamental Bible truths.

I mean, you see that I am discussing "Bowing" down with another member. We have spent many pages on this and it comes down to either accepting what the Bible says or working to make it say what we want it to say.

YOU are welcome to tell me that you disagree me all you want and I can and will do the same to you.

In the future, do us both a favor and tell me the Scriptures you disagree with, and why that I post to support my views.

You are lost in your interpretation of what you read.

Like you said, you are non-denomination. Only you have the truth! :doh:
 
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Major1

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God knew exactly what the people were like in those days.

The above scripture was directly aimed at them. They would worship 'anything at all'. Be it above or below the earth!

God had to give them specific instructions.

Today, God can see who we are. That we know HIM. They did not know him.

I love you but can not agree with you comment. In fact IMO we are worse today than then.
Because the worship of God is primary, false worship is one of the greatest evils man can practice. Idolatry is a serious problem, and not just for the Israelite of Old Testament times.

Many people, and it seems your comment says that you as ell believe we are safe in that, we think, that which was 1000's of years ago doesn’t apply to us any more.

Romans 3:23............
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

Do we not worship Santa Clause today?????
Sports teams?
Politics?
Religion?
Actors?

I visited India about 20 years ago and may I say to you that if you do not think that idol worship is alive and well and MORE prevalent now than 4000 years ago, just go to India.

If it is alive, someone is going to worship it. Snakes, roaches, rats, cows the Gangies river it self is worshipped as it holds the ashes of the dead. And there are more people there now than were in the world in Bible days.

Deut. 4:12-18.............
"Then the Lord spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form—only a voice. … So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water below the earth”.
 
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Goatee

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I love you but can not agree with you comment. In fact IMO we are worse today than then.
Because the worship of God is primary, false worship is one of the greatest evils man can practice. Idolatry is a serious problem, and not just for the Israelite of Old Testament times.

Many people, and it seems your comment says that you as ell believe we are safe in that, we think, that which was 1000's of years ago doesn’t apply to us any more.

Romans 3:23............
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

Do we not worship Santa Clause today?????
Sports teams?
Politics?
Religion?
Actors?

I visited India about 20 years ago and may I say to you that if you do not think that idol worship is alive and well and MORE prevalent now than 4000 years ago, just go to India.

If it is alive, someone is going to worship it. Snakes, roaches, rats, cows the Gangies river it self is worshipped as it holds the ashes of the dead. And there are more people there now than were in the world in Bible days.

Deut. 4:12-18.............
"Then the Lord spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form—only a voice. … So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water below the earth”.

My comments were obviously aimed at 'Christians' and not 'other' false religions. Like I said before, you need to give God credit for knowing His Church and His People. Back then, the people didn't have Jesus or a 'Church'.

If anyone worships a statue today then they only have themselves to blame.

I know of no Catholic / Christian that worships a statue etc.

Chinese bow to each other! Are they worshiping each other? Sumo wrestlers bow to each other, are they worshiping each other? People bow to the Queen, are they worshiping her?
 
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Major1

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Pro Bible doesn't mean correct interpretation of what you read!!

And because you do not agree with me does not mean that I am incorrect in my position.
Now honestly, do you think that I just sit here at my desk and make up anti-Catholic comments just to irritate you? Do you think that maybe there is more than just me how are articulating these comments?

Instead of debating this, why not use your computer and goggle some of the questions we are talking about and see if my comments are simply my own and I have interpreted the Scriptures in error, or are there lots of other people our there who have the same thoughts that I have.

Now, do us both a favor and do not use strictly Catholic website. Go to both Catholic and Protestant, and draw a concensus.

You see, your whole argument is based on your thinking that I in some way have interpreted the Scripture wrong. However, you have not shown, or proven or even spoken to those said Scriptures.

Instead of saying....."YOU do not interpret the Scriptures correctly"..........
please than add, AND HERE IS MY INTERPRETATION WHICH PROVES YOU ARE WRONG.

Lets do that for awhile an maybe we can have a discussion on the Scriptures and you can teach me a few things since you believe I am so wrong.
 
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Major1

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My comments were obviously aimed at 'Christians' and not 'other' false religions.

And my comment was directed at ALL people. Any Christian under the right conditions can be deceived and fall into temptation and then sin.

That is why Bible study is so important.

2 Tim. 3:16........
"All Scripture is inspired of God...................".
 
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Major1

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My comments were obviously aimed at 'Christians' and not 'other' false religions. Like I said before, you need to give God credit for knowing His Church and His People. Back then, the people didn't have Jesus or a 'Church'.

If anyone worships a statue today then they only have themselves to blame.

I know of no Catholic / Christian that worships a statue etc.

Chinese bow to each other! Are they worshiping each other? Sumo wrestlers bow to each other, are they worshiping each other? People bow to the Queen, are they worshiping her?

I guess you missed it. Please go back to post #869 and you will be able to see a few Catholic believers doing just that.
 
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Goatee

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And because you do not agree with me does not mean that I am incorrect in my position.
Now honestly, do you think that I just sit here at my desk and make up anti-Catholic comments just to irritate you? Do you think that maybe there is more than just me how are articulating these comments?

Instead of debating this, why not use your computer and goggle some of the questions we are talking about and see if my comments are simply my own and I have interpreted the Scriptures in error, or are there lots of other people our there who have the same thoughts that I have.

Now, do us both a favor and do not use strictly Catholic website. Go to both Catholic and Protestant, and draw a concensus.

You see, your whole argument is based on your thinking that I in some way have interpreted the Scripture wrong. However, you have not shown, or proven or even spoken to those said Scriptures.

Instead of saying....."YOU do not interpret the Scriptures correctly"..........
please than add, AND HERE IS MY INTERPRETATION WHICH PROVES YOU ARE WRONG.

Lets do that for awhile an maybe we can have a discussion on the Scriptures and you can teach me a few things since you believe I am so wrong.

And just because I am a Catholic doesn't mean I am incorrect either!

Look up Steven Ray or others like him. He really had a very hard struggle with Catholic teachings. You say not to look up Catholic websites but I have and it's amazing how many have gone over to Catholicism from other 'faiths' etc.

I have shown you, as have others, the CC 'interpretation' of scriptures but you disagree with them, much like I disagree with your interpretations.

You say you interpret scripture literally. Would you pluck out your eye if you sinned via it or chop off your arm if you sinned via it?
 
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Major1

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You are lost in your interpretation of what you read.

Like you said, you are non-denomination. Only you have the truth! :doh:

Not so in any way whatsoever. You are just making a defensive comment which does not speak to the issue.

WHY is my interpretation wrong?

I do not have the truth but I do have the Word of God.

John 17:17.............
Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth.

As A Christian, I believe without exception or rationalization or excuses that every word in the Bible is true; this is the foundation upon which we all should live our lives. Knowing what the Bible says about truth and hiding God’s word in our heart helps us to know when we are listening to the Voice of Truth. Here are twenty great scripture quotes about truth.

Psalm 119:160...........
" The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever."

Daniel 10:21 .............
"But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.
 
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Goatee

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I guess you missed it. Please go back to post #869 and you will be able to see a few Catholic believers doing just that.

See! You are judging yet again!! You 'think' you see people worshiping statues etc. Let God be the judge.

Catholics do not worship.

You have been indoctrinated to believe we do. You do not know the hearts of those people, God does!
 
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Major1

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And just because I am a Catholic doesn't mean I am incorrect either!

Look up Steven Ray or others like him. He really had a very hard struggle with Catholic teachings. You say not to look up Catholic websites but I have and it's amazing how many have gone over to Catholicism from other 'faiths' etc.

I have shown you, as have others, the CC 'interpretation' of scriptures but you disagree with them, much like I disagree with your interpretations.

You say you interpret scripture literally. Would you pluck out your eye if you sinned via it or chop off your arm if you sinned via it?

I did not say........ "not to look up Catholic websites."

I said .................. do not use strictly Catholic website. Go to both Catholic and Protestant, and draw a concensus.

And as I have stated for you now at least 4 times, LITERAL is the 1st option unless there is another obvious option.

Since you have brought this up, once again I thank you for the question and the opportunity correctly divide the Word of God.

The language employed by Christ in the situation you described in this context does employ a figure of speech that is common to all languages. It is called hyperbole. The term is derived of two Greek components, hyper (over, above), and bole (from ballein, to throw), hence “to throw above.” It is a specially designed exaggeration for the purpose of emphasis.

My mother, with somewhat of a twinkle in her eye, used to say, “Son, if you do that again, I’m gonna skin you alive.” I knew she was speaking figuratively; nonetheless, I got the point!

In the context of Mark 9:43, Christ was emphasizing the supreme value of pursuing the kingdom of God above all else. To illustrate this principle, he chose, for illustration purposes, items that are very precious to us such as eye, hand, or foot.

The obvious meaning is this. Recognize the value of eternal things; don’t be derailed by temporal and physical distractions.

 
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Goatee

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Not so in any way whatsoever. You are just making a defensive comment which does not speak to the issue.

WHY is my interpretation wrong?

I do not have the truth but I do have the Word of God.

John 17:17.............
Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth.

As A Christian, I believe without exception or rationalization or excuses that every word in the Bible is true; this is the foundation upon which we all should live our lives. Knowing what the Bible says about truth and hiding God’s word in our heart helps us to know when we are listening to the Voice of Truth. Here are twenty great scripture quotes about truth.

Psalm 119:160...........
" The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever."

Daniel 10:21 .............
"But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

I think you will find that all Catholics, myself included 100% believe that every word in the Bible is true.

The issue is that you believe that only YOU have the correct interpretation of those words!

CC gave you the Bible. There was no other church for nearly 1500 yrs. Then, the seas got rough and people jumped ship, just like your ancestors.

You decided to go Sola Scripture', to abandon the way of the Apostles, of the early church fathers. It wasn't enough that the Holy Spirit was guiding the church, no! You had to make up your own 'rules'.

The CC is THE true church!
 
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Goatee

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I did not say........ "not to look up Catholic websites."

I said .................. do not use strictly Catholic website. Go to both Catholic and Protestant, and draw a concensus.

And as I have stated for you now at least 4 times, LITERAL is the 1st option unless there is another obvious option.

Since you have brought this up, once again I thank you for the question and the opportunity correctly divide the Word of God.

The language employed by Christ in the situation you described in this context does employ a figure of speech that is common to all languages. It is called hyperbole. The term is derived of two Greek components, hyper (over, above), and bole (from ballein, to throw), hence “to throw above.” It is a specially designed exaggeration for the purpose of emphasis.

My mother, with somewhat of a twinkle in her eye, used to say, “Son, if you do that again, I’m gonna skin you alive.” I knew she was speaking figuratively; nonetheless, I got the point!

In the context of Mark 9:43, Christ was emphasizing the supreme value of pursuing the kingdom of God above all else. To illustrate this principle, he chose, for illustration purposes, items that are very precious to us such as eye, hand, or foot.

The obvious meaning is this. Recognize the value of eternal things; don’t be derailed by temporal and physical distractions.

Oh, I thought you believed that every word in the Bible was true? You did state that you believed in the Bible literally!

Is that only when it suits?
 
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Major1

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See! You are judging yet again!! You 'think' you see people worshiping statues etc. Let God be the judge.

Catholics do not worship.

You have been indoctrinated to believe we do. You do not know the hearts of those people, God does!

The point is...........are they BOWING DOWN TO A GRAVEN????

Ex. 20:4-5..........
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."

YOU interpret verse #5 for all of us. Does "BOW DOWN" not mean Bow Down".

You said you had never seen a Catholic bow down and worship a statue.

I agree that I do not know their hearts, but neither do you but what does it appear that they are doing.

Not, would you please interpret 1 Thessalonians 5:22...........
"Abstain from ALL appearances of evil".

Does that ALL not mean ALL?
What is YOUR interpretation.
 
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Goatee

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The point is...........are they BOWING DOWN TO A GRAVEN????

Ex. 20:4-5..........
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."

YOU interpret verse #5 for all of us. Does "BOW DOWN" not mean Bow Down".

You said you had never seen a Catholic bow down and worship a statue.

I agree that I do not know their hearts, but neither do you but what does it appear that they are doing.

Not, would you please interpret 1 Thessalonians 5:22...........
"Abstain from ALL appearances of evil".

Does that ALL not mean ALL?
What is YOUR interpretation.

Graven image. Are they graven? To you? Yes. To Catholics no. Why? Because Catholics do not worship statues etc.

Again;

Do Chinese worship each other when they bow?

Do people worship a King when they bow to them?

Reverence.......

Much like the statue or the cross, it is in reverence that people bow. Reverence to what that statue represents to that person.

Now, also, God knows what's in that persons heart.

You are judging left right and centre Major1. I thought you were strict in your faith? Does it say not to judge In the Bible?
 
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Major1

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I think you will find that all Catholics, myself included 100% believe that every word in the Bible is true.

The issue is that you believe that only YOU have the correct interpretation of those words!

CC gave you the Bible. There was no other church for nearly 1500 yrs. Then, the seas got rough and people jumped ship, just like your ancestors.

You decided to go Sola Scripture', to abandon the way of the Apostles, of the early church fathers. It wasn't enough that the Holy Spirit was guiding the church, no! You had to make up your own 'rules'.

The CC is THE true church!

Can you post from the Bible which you say the Catholic church gave to the world the Scripture where Apostolic succession is found.

Now, the comment that the world is in debt to the RCC for the Bible is another of their attempts to exalt the church as an authority in addition to the Bible.

I appreciate your faithfulness to your church but IMO it was God who delivered it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and declared that it would abide forever.

2 Tim. 3:16...........
"All scripture is inspired of God...".

2 Peter 1:21.........
"...Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.".

Matt. 24:35..............
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." .

1 Peter 1:24-25..........
"The grass withered, and the flower has fallen--but the word of the Lord endures forever."

It is my humble opinion that the Catholics are wrong, therefore, in their assumption that the Bible is authoritative only because of the Catholic Church. The Bible does not owe its existence to the Catholic Church, but to the authority, power and providence of God.
 
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paul becke

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You said..........
"You must remember that God knows what is in our prayers and Hearts. Do you really think that God believes that we are worshiping a piece of wood or a statue etc? Please, give God credit for knowing those that follow Him!!!"

That is not the point at all. The point is, the problem is what MEN think when they bow down to a statue of Mary.

Can you not at least see how the bowing down to a graven statue opens the door of men to place their faith in an object instead of the Lord Jesus. Surely you can see that. I can understand how you would be reluctant to admit it but it seems to me that it would be impossible you not to see how the door of opened to Satan.

You know, the Scripture in Exodus 20 is not optional. It was not given so that in 2017 so that we could give excuses and explinations and break that Bible commandment from God.

Really you have no excuse for this nonsense. The Buddhists have statues of Buddha, but nobody is dumb ebougfh to believe they think it's him, and they worship him. As far as I know, they don't, either officially or unofficially. Heck, I doubt if Satanists are that dumb.

I don't believe the ancient Israeites were dumb enough to believe a statue of a calf made by their own hands was a god (even though the Psalmist mocks them for it). What they had probably learnt was that if they made an image of something and treated it as a talisman to invite a demigod, an 'appropriate' demon would animate it, as and when required, and it would serve as their idol/god.

There is reason to believe that a spiritual vortex is created by the prayers of worshippers at holy shrines, perhaps making the presence of saints, such as Our Lady, (according to the shrine), feel more palpable, thereby feeding the person's devotion to God. They can concentrate better.

I don't do it, or have done it very seldom, as I wasn't brought up to do it, so I don't feel the need, but I very much envy cradle Catholics and all those who do kneel before statues of he saints. For that matter statues of Jesus. Do you think we believe statues of Jesus are the real Jesus ? Some of you are so literal-minded - except for honouring Our Lady, for example - you haven't got the sense you were born with.
 
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