The Blessed Virgin Mary as Created wisdom and Christ as Eternal Wisdom personified

[Athanasias]

Here is a great article by catholic theologian Dr. Taylor Marshall where he lays out 4 good arguments for the Blessed Virgin Mary to be seen as created wisdom spoken about in the 2 deuterocanonical books of Wisdom and Sirach and in the proto-canonical book of Proverbs and Christ as eternal Wisdom personified in 1 Corinthians. I have noticed that its the deutrocanonical books that also to me show additional evidence for Mary's title and role as mediatrix of all grace (Sirach 24:25). This is exciting to me as a Catholic and has just put more pieces of the mystery of Mary's role in salvation history and clarified some issues.

Enjoy! I dig this Mariology. http://taylormarshall.com/2011/02/immaculate-mary-and-personified-wisdom.html

 

[Cappadocious]

created wisdom spoken about in the 2 deuterocanonical books of Wisdom and Sirach and in the proto-canonical book of Proverbs

I think that to understand that wisdom as "created" is a bit of an anachronism.

 

[Athanasias]

I think that to understand that wisdom as "created" is a bit of an anachronism.

Sorry you feel that way. Did you read the article and 4 arguments on why? I thought the good doctor had 4 good points on this. For me the polyvalant nature of scripture, the development of doctrine, and the mystical/spiritual approach of exegesis and understanding of many Catholic saints, blesseds, and mystics(like St. Bernard of Clairvaux, St. Alphonsus Liguori, and venerable Mary of Agreda.)to our Lady seem to fit well with these 4 biblical arguments.

 

[Catherineanne]

Here is a great article by catholic theologian Dr. Taylor Marshall where he lays out 4 good arguments for the Blessed Virgin Mary to be seen as created wisdom spoken about in the 2 deuterocanonical books of Wisdom and Sirach and in the proto-canonical book of Proverbs and Christ as eternal Wisdom personified in 1 Corinthians. I have noticed that its the deutrocanonical books that also to me show additional evidence for Mary's title and role as mediatrix of all grace (Sirach 24:25). This is exciting to me as a Catholic and has just put more pieces of the mystery of Mary's role in salvation history and clarified some issues.

Enjoy! I dig this Mariology. http://taylormarshall.com/2011/02/immaculate-mary-and-personified-wisdom.html

I am all for honouring the Blessed Virgin Mary but Holy Wisdom is the wisdom of God or Christ and not of Our Lady.

And yes, I did read the article. I just did not find it at all convincing. Mary was not 'in the beginning' with God; Christ was, and the wisdom is his. We are all made male and female, and wisdom is part of the feminine attributes of Christ, and indeed God. Male and female are made in the image of God, not just men.

 

[Athanasias]

I am all for honouring the Blessed Virgin Mary but Holy Wisdom is the wisdom of God or Christ and not of Our Lady.

And yes, I did read the article. I just did not find it at all convincing. Mary was not 'in the beginning' with God; Christ was, and the wisdom is his. We are all made male and female, and wisdom is part of the feminine attributes of Christ, and indeed God. Male and female are made in the image of God, not just men.

Thanks Catherine for this. Yeah its true Christ is eternal wisdom personified as Corintians shows. but I think the great Marian mystics and saints have something here that was hidden as a spiritual meaning by the Holy Spirit(Mary's Spouse) as scripture is polyvalent. The Churches saints have sought Mary as "created wisdom" for the biblical reasons you read about. So it is not saying Mary was in the beginning like Christ. 2 Different types of Wisdom. It seems probable to me given many other passages with a similiar polyvalent structure. It is high Mariology indeed but I love it. For me it answers on a deeper level her role as mediatrix of all grace. Thanks for your input! Sorry you do not feel the same but thanks for your input!

 

[Cappadocious]

Wisdom is the wisdom of God or Christ

+1, Proverbs and Wisdom of Solomon are understood as referring to Christ the Holy Wisdom. St. Irenaeus associated Wisdom with the Holy Spirit.

The Mother of God is wise with God's wisdom, but this does not make her created wisdom. This is confusing at best.

 

[Athanasias]

+1, Proverbs and Wisdom of Solomon are understood as referring to Christ the Holy Wisdom. St. Irenaeus associated Wisdom with the Holy Spirit.

The Mother of God is wise with God's wisdom, but this does not make her created wisdom. This is confusing at best.

Sorry you feel that way. I think some of those passages can be polyvalent and show a greater reality of both Jesus and Mary's roles on various spiritual levels.

 

[Cappadocious]

Polyvalent doesn't warrant every valence, though!

 

[Athanasias]

Polyvalent doesn't warrant every valence, though!

its ok to disagree on this. Again sorry you feel that way. I can see the connections. Makes sense to me given all the evidence.

 

[Brad Gade]

I really enjoyed the article from Dr. Marshall. I am a new convert to the Catholic faith, going on 2 years. This topic of wisdom being Mary is intriguing and has been on my mind for the past several months. Sirach 24:3 states this...
3 “I came forth from the mouth of the Most High,
the first-born before all creatures. I am wondering if there is any correlation between this 'creation' of wisdom,which is spoken of as a person,which proceeds from the mouth of God and the 'creation' of woman from the side of man. It seems reasonable to me to conclude that we all have our place in creation in the mind of God in there proper order and as Song of Solomon says 6
9 My dove, my perfect one, is only one,
the darling of her mother,
flawless to her that bore her. We all exist in the Lords mind prior to our earthly existence so it seems right that his greatest work in our Blessed Lady would come first. Sirach 24
“Then the Creator of all things gave me a commandment,
and the one who created me assigned a place for my tent.
And he said, ‘Make your dwelling in Jacob,
and in Israel receive your inheritance,
and among my chosen put down your roots.’
9 From eternity, in the beginning, he created me,
and for eternity I shall not cease to exist.
10 In the holy tabernacle I ministered before him,
and so I was established in Zion.
11 In the beloved city likewise he gave me a resting place,
and in Jerusalem was my dominion.
12 So I took root in an honored people,
in the portion of the Lord, who is their inheritance,
and my abode was in the full assembly of the saints. God bless!

 

[prodromos]

(Slowly backs away from the thread, shaking head in amazement).
(Realises late that this thread had been dead for some time until just recently)
(Wonders if the author of the article knows that the French word for "vagina" is masculine)

 

[All4Christ]

First, @Brad Gade - welcome to Christian Forums!

I know this is an old thread. That said, this is leaning towards sophianism, which was declared to be heresy in the Orthodox Church - I think it was in a ROCOR council? It's not identical, but I would be very wary of this as a doctrine of the church. Holy (Hagia) Sophia could be considered the pre-incarnate Christ, and often is considered to be the Holy Spirit, but considering the created wisdom to be a type of Mary? I'd be very wary of it.

Also, the article misses a very ancient fifth option- Wisdom as the Holy Spirit.

 

[ViaCrucis]

First, @Brad Gade - welcome to Christian Forums!

I know this is an old thread. That said, this is leaning towards sophianism, which was declared to be heresy in the Orthodox Church - I think it was in a ROCOR council? It's not identical, but I would be very wary of this as a doctrine of the church. Holy Sophia could be considered the pre-incarnate Christ, and often is considered to be the Holy Spirit, but considering the created wisdom to be a type of Mary? I'd be very wary of it.

Also, the article misses a very ancient fifth option- Wisdom as the Holy Spirit.

It comes across to me as dangerously, and very close to Gnosticism in its treatment of Sophia. While the article says, of course, that the Gnostic Sophia is to be rejected, the notion that Mary is in some way herself Holy Wisdom borders on being that very thing. The heresy you mention, Sophianism, seems even closer to such Gnostic thought of course; but nevertheless the idea that the Blessed Virgin could be in anyway be identified with Holy Wisdom seems like several steps crossing a line toward what I can only imagine ought to be called rank heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Cappadocious]

Sometimes the Roman Catholics seem like they're counting coup with their Mariology, like we're going to say this really strange thing and then back off by giving it an exegesis that renders it blase'. if I went through all that trouble I'd want to own my strangeness, not write it off.

 

[dzheremi]

Coptic Orthodox fraction prayer on Wisdom, attributed to St. Epiphanius (310-403):

O our God, where are the lands of Wisdom? Where are the footprints of their ways? Who would pass over the seas to buy them with pure gold? Who can ascend above the clouds and bring them? The mortal man does not know Its way, for most men forsake It. Wisdom is hidden, even from the angels. Those who possess Wisdom obtain grace, and those who hate It love death. Wisdom is brighter than the sun and all the stars. Wisdom is the Light of the Father existing with Him from eternity. Wisdom has existed from eternity.


She renews everyone. She enters the souls of the righteous through all the ages. Wisdom is more precious than pearls and unequal to all honors. Wisdom has counsel, might, and knowledge. By Wisdom kings reigned, the great men are honored, and the princes of the earth govern. Wisdom loves those who love Her and protects those who keep Her. Those who seek Wisdom find grace.


Wisdom walks in the way of justice and moves in the path of truth. Wisdom grants richness to those who acknowledge Her and fills their treasures with joy.


God granted Wisdom to our father Jacob, and She then appeared and walked on earth as a Man. Wisdom has built Her house. She has hewn (carved) out her seven pillars. She has slaughtered Her meat. She has mixed Her wine. She has also furnished Her table. The house of Wisdom is the universal and apostolic Church, and Her seven pillars are life-giving sacraments of God.


Wisdom sent forth Her servants to say always throughout the ages, "You who are simple turn to me." As to those who lack understanding She says, "Come eat of My Body and drink of My Blood. Relinquish the ignorance from among you, so that you might live."


Wisdom is our Savior Jesus Christ who redeemed us with the sacrifice of His Body, bought us by His bloodshed, and chose us for His eternal kingdom. We ask You O our Master to grant us to find wisdom in You alone; to accept this sacrifice from our hands. Accept our fasting and prayers, so we may dare as sons to cry to You, our heavenly Father,


"Our Father..."

People and things that Wisdom is, according to the above prayer:

• The light of the Father, existing with Him from eternity
• The Lord our Savior Jesus Christ
• The universal and apostolic Church

People that Wisdom is not:

• The Theotokos St. Mary

I'm going to trust the prayers of my own Church over some Roman Catholic thing I've never heard of.

 

[Erose]

Sometimes the Roman Catholics seem like they're counting coup with their Mariology, like we're going to say this really strange thing and then back off by giving it an exegesis that renders it blase'. if I went through all that trouble I'd want to own my strangeness, not write it off.

Cap, I do want to point out that these are the musing of one apologist, and not the Catholic Church. I do not either see how one can correlate this either. I'm not in agreement with the article, and I too think this may be getting close to being heretical as well.

I think this issue comes up in some folks minds because of the usage of feminine pronouns in relation to Wisdom in the OT writings that discuss this.

 

[Devin P]

Here is a great article by catholic theologian Dr. Taylor Marshall where he lays out 4 good arguments for the Blessed Virgin Mary to be seen as created wisdom spoken about in the 2 deuterocanonical books of Wisdom and Sirach and in the proto-canonical book of Proverbs and Christ as eternal Wisdom personified in 1 Corinthians. I have noticed that its the deutrocanonical books that also to me show additional evidence for Mary's title and role as mediatrix of all grace (Sirach 24:25). This is exciting to me as a Catholic and has just put more pieces of the mystery of Mary's role in salvation history and clarified some issues.

Enjoy! I dig this Mariology. http://taylormarshall.com/2011/02/immaculate-mary-and-personified-wisdom.html

Hey Athanasias! So, I clicked on your link, and have some questions for you, and a few ideas I might bounce off of you.

So, there are no inconsistencies within the bible, and that is actually how we're supposed to figure out whether or not something is truth. By comparing it to other scriptures in the bible. By the light of God, and His word, we can then discern what is and isn't truth.

"1) Lady Wisdom is the pre-incarnate Christ.
2) Lady Wisdom is a type of Mary, the Mother of Christ.
3) Lady Wisdom is an ancient Near Eastern goddess or a feminine Gnostic demigod.
4) Lady Wisdom is purely an allegory of the virtue of wisdom."

My first question is based on what's written above quoted from the link you gave.

Why do you see "Lady Wisdom" as the pre-incarnate Christ? I disagree, but would be interested to see what scripture people use to allude to this.

Also, I would love more explanation on statements 2 and 3 listed above.

Would the fact that "Lady Wisdom" is considered an allegory, make it not in fact a demigod? But in fact making it a symbol, and nothing to be actually worshipped?

I don't mean to sound rude or arrogant in the phrasing or asking of any of these questions, I'm just curious as to the catholic point of view regarding these things is all.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I am all for honouring the Blessed Virgin Mary but Holy Wisdom is the wisdom of God or Christ and not of Our Lady.

And yes, I did read the article. I just did not find it at all convincing. Mary was not 'in the beginning' with God; Christ was, and the wisdom is his. We are all made male and female, and wisdom is part of the feminine attributes of Christ, and indeed God. Male and female are made in the image of God, not just men.

This.

 

[Chrétien de Troyes]

This is really the official position of the Catholic Church

If you have ever read infefabilis deus you wouldknow that her soul was prepared at the beginning of times and that is why we apply to her some verse like Proverbe 8 or Sirach 24

And because she is created wisdom she has also the caracteristics

"And hence the very words with which the Sacred Scriptures speak of Uncreated Wisdom and set forth his eternal origin, the Church, both in its ecclesiastical offices and in its liturgy, has been wont to apply likewise to the origin of the Blessed Virgin, inasmuch as God, by one and the same decree, had established the origin of Mary and the Incarnation of Divine Wisdom"

"From the very beginning, and before time began, the eternal Father chose and prepared for his only-begotten Son a Mother in whom the Son of God would become incarnate and from whom, in the blessed fullness of time, he would be born into this world"

Ineffabilis Deus - Papal Encyclicals

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Here is a great article by catholic theologian Dr. Taylor Marshall where he lays out 4 good arguments for the Blessed Virgin Mary to be seen as created wisdom spoken about in the 2 deuterocanonical books of Wisdom and Sirach and in the proto-canonical book of Proverbs and Christ as eternal Wisdom personified in 1 Corinthians. I have noticed that its the deutrocanonical books that also to me show additional evidence for Mary's title and role as mediatrix of all grace (Sirach 24:25). This is exciting to me as a Catholic and has just put more pieces of the mystery of Mary's role in salvation history and clarified some issues.

Enjoy! I dig this Mariology. Immaculate Mary and Personified Wisdom in the Old Testament - Taylor Marshall

Are you saying there was a time where God lacked wisdom?