Why Filioque is heretical and not Aeriel toll houses?

A sojourner in Christ

Disciple of Lord Jesus Christ
Jul 2, 2017
22
23
25
Hyderabad
✟16,170.00
Country
India
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Peace and Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all~Amen!
I'm considering Catholicism or Orthodoxy, but I'm perplexed little bit concerning filioque issue. Some orthodox zealously defends the Aeriel toll houses as doctrine of the church because of few patristics attestation but in honest view--filioque has much support from patristics then latter as Latin fathers undeniably believed filioque as true.
 

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,784
Pacific Northwest
✟728,105.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Peace and Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all~Amen!
I'm considering Catholicism or Orthodoxy, but I'm perplexed little bit concerning filioque issue. Some orthodox zealously defends the Aeriel toll houses as doctrine of the church because of few patristics attestation but in honest view--filioque has much support from patristics then latter as Latin fathers undeniably believed filioque as true.

The toll-house theory is defended by some Orthodox and is condemned by others. The harshest critics of the notion are Orthodox academics, theologians, and clergy who not only argue that there is no evidence for such a notion in Scripture and the Church's tradition, but that it is in fact a deeply dangerous heresy that is nothing less than a resurgence of Gnosticism which has the effect of obscuring the love of Christ and dismantling Christian hope after death.

Saint Luke the Evangelist Orthodox Church is a Chicago Parish of the Orthodox Church in America located in Palos Hills, Illinois

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

A sojourner in Christ

Disciple of Lord Jesus Christ
Jul 2, 2017
22
23
25
Hyderabad
✟16,170.00
Country
India
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Peace! Well many theologians indeed do believe in concept of Ariel toll houses like Timothy Ware and Fr. Thomas Hopko. It's mostly famous among lay members who passionately defend it even some of them go far to take it literally and call those who regard it as allegory-- a modernist. If Aeriel toll houses is true because father's affimed it why not filioque or purgatory?
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Hello, and welcome to CF! :)

Give yourself time to understand what you are considering/criticizing.

Tollhouses ARE a doctrine of the Orthodox Church (they are mentioned in the Liturgical hymns) ... but what is meant is very easily misunderstood. There was a thread here within the last week. I'll look for a link. Basically I will say every Orthodox priest and teacher I know explain them in a METAPHORICAL sense - they simply refer to the final temptation of the soul by demons, NOT literal houses in the sky where demons judge souls. To believe a demon can be given judgement over a Christian is HIGHLY heretical!

The Filioque is very nuanced. Christ Himself said the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. The ECFs understood the Father as the sole source. Modern Catholic Theologians sometimes claim they mean that the Holy Spirits proceeds from the Father THROUGH the Son in a temporal sense, which Orthodoxy could accept. However, the Nicene Creed did not address the temporal giving of the Holy Spirit, but rather His eternal procession from a Source (the Father). Also of very great importance is the issue Orthodoxy takes with a single patriarch (Rome) usurping authority and modifying the Creed which had been accepted as the symbol of the Christian faith by the entire Church.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Here is the other thread that explains Orthodox teaching regarding tollhouses a little better: Aerial Tollhouses in Orthodoxy

Be careful who you ask, if you wish to know what the Church teaches. Laymen, especially converts and especially online, often haven't quite gotten the real ethos down just yet and often argue things that the Church doesn't really teach. There are also slightly more superstitious pockets in places, especially given that Orthodoxy has often faced persecution and been practiced in isolation, at times. It is an irony given the topic of your concern that some places leaned more toward a more direct understanding of tollhouses because of the influence of Rome, actually. Rome's greater focus on juridical salvation, punishment, merits, etc. actually lends more credibility to the idea of literal tollhouses than Orthodoxy does with its emphasis on theosis and healing as part of salvation.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Peace! Well many theologians indeed do believe in concept of Ariel toll houses like Timothy Ware and Fr. Thomas Hopko. It's mostly famous among lay members who passionately defend it even some of them go far to take it literally and call those who regard it as allegory-- a modernist. If Aeriel toll houses is true because father's affimed it why not filioque or purgatory?
If you can give a citation I will check to see if I can shed a little more light on the subject. Neither Met. Ware nor Fr. Thomas Hopko are infallible, of course, but I would seriously doubt either of them actually believed/taught as literal the tollhouse stories that purport to be actual accounts, for example.
 
Upvote 0

A sojourner in Christ

Disciple of Lord Jesus Christ
Jul 2, 2017
22
23
25
Hyderabad
✟16,170.00
Country
India
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hello, and welcome to CF! :)
Thank you!
Yeah most of the teachers explain and regard it either metaphorically or spritual myth for edifying. In few groups online I came across people who insisted in literal toll houses and critized the non literal sense as modernist leaning.. No, MET Timothy ware or Fr Thomas hopko always regarded it metaphorically.
Filioque maybe nuanced and ambigious but it's presence in fathers is testified, 'and the son' may not be directly present in Scripture but 'spirit of Christ' term is of repetitive occurrence in pauline epistles.
Blessings,
S.k
 
  • Informative
Reactions: archer75
Upvote 0

A sojourner in Christ

Disciple of Lord Jesus Christ
Jul 2, 2017
22
23
25
Hyderabad
✟16,170.00
Country
India
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Just curious, why isn't Protestantism on your radar?
Because early church is most similar in ecclesiology and doctrines to catholic and orthodox Churches then protestant churches. Eucharist, prayers of dead, invocation of saints, status of Bishops as Vicar of God the Father( as said by St ignatius disciple of Apostle John) and etc. But It doesn't mean my protestant brethren are less, they are still my brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
Upvote 0

A sojourner in Christ

Disciple of Lord Jesus Christ
Jul 2, 2017
22
23
25
Hyderabad
✟16,170.00
Country
India
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Maximus the Confessor:
"By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten (Questions to Thalassium 63 [A.D. 254]).

Gregory the Wonderworker:
"[There is] one Holy Spirit, having substance from God, and who is manifested through the Son; image of the Son, perfect of the perfect; life, the cause of living; holy fountain; sanctity, the dispenser of sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father who is above all and in all, and God the Son who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged" (Confession of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Hilary of Poitiers:
"Concerning the Holy Spirit . . . it is not necessary to speak of him who must be acknowledged, who is from the Father and the Son, his sources" (The Trinity 2:29 [A.D. 357]).

"In the fact that before times eternal your [the Father’s] only-begotten [Son] was born of you, when we put an end to every ambiguity of words and difficulty of understanding, there remains only this: he was born. So too, even if I do not g.asp it in my understanding, I hold fast in my consciousness to the fact that your Holy Spirit is from you through him" (ibid., 12:56).

And we have St Maximus the Confessor saying;
“With regard to the first matter, they (the Romans) have produced the unanimous documentary evidence of the Latin fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the sacred commentary he composed on the gospel of St. John. On the basis of these texts, they have shown that they have not made the Son the cause of the Spirit — they know in fact that the Father is the only cause of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting and the other by procession; but [they use this expression] in order to manifest the Spirit’s coming-forth (προϊέναι) through him and, in this way, to make clear the unity and identity of the essence.”
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Maximus the Confessor:
"By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten (Questions to Thalassium 63 [A.D. 254]).

Gregory the Wonderworker:
"[There is] one Holy Spirit, having substance from God, and who is manifested through the Son; image of the Son, perfect of the perfect; life, the cause of living; holy fountain; sanctity, the dispenser of sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father who is above all and in all, and God the Son who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged" (Confession of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Hilary of Poitiers:
"Concerning the Holy Spirit . . . it is not necessary to speak of him who must be acknowledged, who is from the Father and the Son, his sources" (The Trinity 2:29 [A.D. 357]).

"In the fact that before times eternal your [the Father’s] only-begotten [Son] was born of you, when we put an end to every ambiguity of words and difficulty of understanding, there remains only this: he was born. So too, even if I do not g.asp it in my understanding, I hold fast in my consciousness to the fact that your Holy Spirit is from you through him" (ibid., 12:56).

And we have St Maximus the Confessor saying;

I can't really comment on the body of theology from any of these men on the subject, but do you see that every one of your sources except Hilary of Poitiers (who I am not very familiar with) is the only one that calls the Son a SOURCE ... the others all say THROUGH the Son, which as I said, Orthodoxy could agree with. The problem Orthodoxy has is specifically with assigning a dual SOURCE to the Holy Spirit (Father and Son) which creates a three-tiered hierarchy within the Godhead, and subjugates the Holy Spirit, on one hand, and on the other, the unilateral changing of the Creed by a single patriarch, on his own authority. The early popes of Rome would NOT have approved.

Some Internet groups that call themselves "Orthodox" are not associated with canonical Orthodoxy. A red flag is an argumentative spirit that would essentially put others out of the Church for being "not Orthodox enough" and at the same time regarding themselves alone as being truly Traditional. What I've just said is possible to misunderstand, because there ARE lines that cannot be crossed and Orthodoxy cannot accept deviation from, but you will usually find a gentle and humble spirit willing to calmly explain and discuss the issues. A prideful spirit that rushes to schism is very often associated with those groups who have done so en masse, and reject the authority of the Church, becoming their own little kingdoms unto themselves, which is not in the spirit of Orthodoxy. I mean no disrespect, but it can be difficult for a convert to discern the difference, so if you are just inquiring into Orthodoxy, it may be near-impossible to know whether what is being said is truly from the Orthodox Church. "Internet Orthodoxy" can be VERY misleading. My suggestion would be to visit a local parish and speak to the priest instead. :)
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
These are the comments I made about tollhouses. There has been follow-up from other Orthodox.

(tollhouses)

I have never met an Orthodox teacher or clergy who have taught tollhouses as literal. They ARE mentioned in the Liturgical texts and so should be considered a teaching of the Church. But what that means can be easily misunderstood. There are some "pious stories" floating around that are terribly misleading.

The most often way they are explained is this: demons tempt us (including trying to discourage us, lying to us, trying to entice us, whatever they think will work) throughout our lives. The process of death (which we should remember, sometimes takes some time, but even if it happens in an instant ... ) is still closely connected to life. It is the last chance the demons have to attack the soul, and it is also reasonable to think we may be vulnerable at that moment, since it is likely to be an unknown moment of some dread. Should we be surprised if the demons try one last attempt to terrify or entice the soul, whatever outcome they may be trying for?

I think it is better if we approach death expecting anything, yet hoping as always in Christ.

I spoke with a dear friend just today about an experience she had last year when she "died" but was resuscitated. It was very profound, and out of respect to her I won't recount it here. But she was very distressed about one thing. She is a Pentecostal-type non-denominational Christian, who loves Christ and lives for Him. But she expected only light, and was beyond distressed to find both light AND darkness present. I think it made her doubt her salvation, because of her expectations based on her beliefs. I explained to her very simply that I thought it was only a last-ditch "temptation" no different from what we experience all during life, and she had tears in her eyes and agreed that it made sense with all she was describing. Glory to God, I think, I hope, I was able to offer her some reassurance. Because to be honest, it seems she has been living in some fear of death since then, and according to her beliefs, there is no way she can become "more saved" than she already is. I can't imagine such angst, so I hope it really does help her to understand it in this way.

But literal houses in the air, manned by demons, extracting payments, judging the soul, etc? No ... we simply are as vulnerable to temptation to any earthly sin/passion we may have developed an attachment to during life, and we can expect demons to make attempts of any kind upon us until we are safely beyond their influence. This is the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church, as far as I've ever heard it (and I've heard it from a number of teachers and priests).
 
Upvote 0

A sojourner in Christ

Disciple of Lord Jesus Christ
Jul 2, 2017
22
23
25
Hyderabad
✟16,170.00
Country
India
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
We have arrived at the heart of complexity, friend. Actually the whole controversy is more semantics than basic doctrinal differences as noted by Met. Kallistos ware. Latin and Greek are two different languages and it's absolutely necessary to understand fathers in their context, as fathers of East-West expressed the singular truth differently(even St Augustine). Foremost, Latin fathers also believed that father (alone) is the cause (Aition) or Principle (Principium) of both son and spirit. But holy spirit receives his very being (i,e) substance from the Father through son as also St maximus said: "Just as the Holy Spirit exists of the Father by nature, according to substance, so also is he, according to substance, of the Son, in that, in an ineffable way, he proceeds from the Father substantially through the Son who is begotten.” Tensions within two churches are still heated due to emphasis of two different traditions and their interpretation of the filioque clause and spirit procession. Concerning interpolation to the creed, actually St Cyril and the Council of ephesus forbid addition to Nicene creed rather than Constantinopolitan Creed. So just three things need to be consider;
1. Catholic Church like Orthodox rejects that Spirit proceeds(mean having principle from son as considered heretical by East).
2. Cappadocian and Alexandrian (Fathers) should be read according to their respective tradition rather than through Antiochene perspective, as they could be heavily misunderstood.
3. Inclusion of filioque clause was necessity to defeat arianism.
 
Upvote 0

A sojourner in Christ

Disciple of Lord Jesus Christ
Jul 2, 2017
22
23
25
Hyderabad
✟16,170.00
Country
India
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
My suggestion would be to visit a local parish and speak to the priest instead.
I would love to visit Orthodox church but place where I live there is no church nearby, I love orthodoxy but hate tradox attitude and hyper anti western rhetoric but beauty of divine liturgy overshadow me just desire to experience beauty in reality.
Please pray for me!!
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: GingerBeer
Upvote 0

A sojourner in Christ

Disciple of Lord Jesus Christ
Jul 2, 2017
22
23
25
Hyderabad
✟16,170.00
Country
India
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I have never met an Orthodox teacher or clergy who have taught tollhouses as literal. They ARE mentioned in the Liturgical texts and so should be considered a teaching of the Church. But what that means can be easily misunderstood. There are some "pious stories" floating around that are terribly misleading.

The most often way they are explained is this: demons tempt us (including trying to discourage us, lying to us, trying to entice us, whatever they think will work) throughout our lives. The process of death (which we should remember, sometimes takes some time, but even if it happens in an instant ... ) is still closely connected to life. It is the last chance the demons have to attack the soul, and it is also reasonable to think we may be vulnerable at that moment, since it is likely to be an unknown moment of some dread. Should we be surprised if the demons try one last attempt to terrify or entice the soul, whatever outcome they may be trying for?

I think it is better if we approach death expecting anything, yet hoping as always in Christ.

I spoke with a dear friend just today about an experience she had last year when she "died" but was resuscitated. It was very profound, and out of respect to her I won't recount it here. But she was very distressed about one thing. She is a Pentecostal-type non-denominational Christian, who loves Christ and lives for Him. But she expected only light, and was beyond distressed to find both light AND darkness present. I think it made her doubt her salvation, because of her expectations based on her beliefs. I explained to her very simply that I thought it was only a last-ditch "temptation" no different from what we experience all during life, and she had tears in her eyes and agreed that it made sense with all she was describing. Glory to God, I think, I hope, I was able to offer her some reassurance. Because to be honest, it seems she has been living in some fear of death since then, and according to her beliefs, there is no way she can become "more saved" than she already is. I can't imagine such angst, so I hope it really does help her to understand it in this way.

But literal houses in the air, manned by demons, extracting payments, judging the soul, etc? No ... we simply are as vulnerable to temptation to any earthly sin/passion we may have developed an attachment to during life, and we can expect demons to make attempts of any kind upon us until we are safely beyond their influence. This is the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church, as far as I've ever heard it (and I've heard it from a number of teachers and priests)
Thank you so much for sharing this with me! I loved your explanation to her, yeah it does clarified everything but if understood in respective sense. Nde's are ambiguous at least but there is one thing in common in most of testimonies--that they see light well many see jesus, heaven and hell. Yeah, it maybe demonic deception to trick the believers or it might be God's second chance to believer? Well biblical narrative give us assurance and clarification of life after death through Lazarus and Rich man story. Nevertheless, I plead again please pray for me, a sinner. I lost interest, I'm broken because God doesn't hear me anymore. I always pray to God to show me true church and still he is silent and I'm miserable and confused. Actually I'm fed up by theological debates if my soul is unrest, could I ever know the truth? Have mercy :disrelieved:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mcarmichael

Novice
Sep 8, 2014
862
256
✟56,961.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Thank you so much for sharing this with me! I loved your explanation to her, yeah it does clarified everything but if understood in respective sense. Nde's are ambiguous at least but there is one thing in common in most of testimonies--that they see light well many see jesus, heaven and hell. Yeah, it maybe demonic deception to trick the believers or it might be God's second chance to believer? Well biblical narrative give us assurance and clarification of life after death through Lazarus and Rich man story. Nevertheless, I plead again please pray for me, a sinner. I lost interest, I'm broken because God doesn't hear me anymore. I always pray to God to show me true church and still he is silent and I'm miserable and confused. Actually I'm fed up by theological debates if my soul is unrest, could I ever know the truth? Have mercy :disrelieved:
If it's any consolation to you, even if you do eventually visit an Orthodox Church (I hope that you'll be able to soon), it will probably be at least one year until you are "received" by her. It's a process and it takes time, so don't panic.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,167
16,006
Flyoverland
✟1,223,659.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
If it's any consolation to you, even if you do eventually visit an Orthodox Church (I hope that you'll be able to soon), it will probably be at least one year until you are "received" by her. It's a process and it takes time, so don't panic.
It could take a long time in the Catholic Church as well, a year even. Could be shorter but I wouldn't promise you that. In either case, Catholic or Orthodox, we want you to know what you are getting in to so you are in it for the long haul. That's a good thing, even if it can seem to take forever.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
We have arrived at the heart of complexity, friend. Actually the whole controversy is more semantics than basic doctrinal differences as noted by Met. Kallistos ware. Latin and Greek are two different languages and it's absolutely necessary to understand fathers in their context, as fathers of East-West expressed the singular truth differently(even St Augustine). Foremost, Latin fathers also believed that father (alone) is the cause (Aition) or Principle (Principium) of both son and spirit. But holy spirit receives his very being (i,e) substance from the Father through son as also St maximus said: "Just as the Holy Spirit exists of the Father by nature, according to substance, so also is he, according to substance, of the Son, in that, in an ineffable way, he proceeds from the Father substantially through the Son who is begotten.” Tensions within two churches are still heated due to emphasis of two different traditions and their interpretation of the filioque clause and spirit procession. Concerning interpolation to the creed, actually St Cyril and the Council of ephesus forbid addition to Nicene creed rather than Constantinopolitan Creed. So just three things need to be consider;
1. Catholic Church like Orthodox rejects that Spirit proceeds(mean having principle from son as considered heretical by East).
2. Cappadocian and Alexandrian (Fathers) should be read according to their respective tradition rather than through Antiochene perspective, as they could be heavily misunderstood.
3. Inclusion of filioque clause was necessity to defeat arianism.
Well, I've said enough about the Filioque. But even though Rome is expressing herself differently these days, with an understanding at least Orthodoxy can agree with, there are still major hurdles to any reunification. In my human understanding, I would think reunification of all Christianity is a noble and desirable thing. In reality, I don't expect to see it happen with Catholicism in my lifetime. The issues surrounding the papacy alone are deeply dividing us.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I would love to visit Orthodox church but place where I live there is no church nearby, I love orthodoxy but hate tradox attitude and hyper anti western rhetoric but beauty of divine liturgy overshadow me just desire to experience beauty in reality.
Please pray for me!!
I am glad you know the difference! I wondered if I should encourage you without warning, so I'm glad you already know.

Prayers for you!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Thank you so much for sharing this with me! I loved your explanation to her, yeah it does clarified everything but if understood in respective sense. Nde's are ambiguous at least but there is one thing in common in most of testimonies--that they see light well many see jesus, heaven and hell. Yeah, it maybe demonic deception to trick the believers or it might be God's second chance to believer? Well biblical narrative give us assurance and clarification of life after death through Lazarus and Rich man story. Nevertheless, I plead again please pray for me, a sinner. I lost interest, I'm broken because God doesn't hear me anymore. I always pray to God to show me true church and still he is silent and I'm miserable and confused. Actually I'm fed up by theological debates if my soul is unrest, could I ever know the truth? Have mercy :disrelieved:

God hears you. :)

And you have my prayers.

The rest, yes, I understand you are having difficulties. It sounds like you know something of the path. If this causes you unrest, maybe this is not what you should be looking into right now?

It would be better if you had a priest to talk to, whether you wanted to become Orthodox or not. I am no spiritual guide, so take this as coming from an unqualified person, but I wonder if you don't need to relax into your prayers, maybe read some things from lives of the Saints, step back from theology for long enough to breathe in the faith, and then maybe figure out what to do? It just sounds like in your desperation, you're maybe pushing yourself further away?

Prayers for you ...
 
Upvote 0