Afterlife Alternatives

[Anto9us]

I think the whole idea of "ONCE" in Heb 9:27-28, well, the whole chapter; is Christ dying ONCE as opposed to old covenant of "High Priest going in ONCE A YEAR"

the whole book of Hebrews is about: "Christ established a NEW and BETTER covenant"

Christian reincarnationists, the few I have been exposed to, they do indeed affirm that
"ya die once, and there is JUDGEMENT afterwards"
(and that KRISIS, or judgement) leads to the soul's subsequent journeys

"for as in Adam all die" -- well, that's ONE DEATH right there -- right out of the gate for every body

I see many "deaths" and many "judgements"...

did Adam and Eve "die" the day that they ate the fruit?
God said they would, so somehow they did

does every person "die" as soon as they are born, like 'original sin'
becuz "in Adam all die" ?

lotta "judgements" --
Great White Throne Judgement, sheep and goats judgement, "few and many stripes" judgement, and Baema 'judgement seat of Christ' -- which I feel applies ONLY to saved Christians -- these different descriptions of various JUDGEMENTS are not all describing the same thing -- they're just NOT

I dont feel Heb 9:27 was written/inspired to DISMISS REINCARNATION, and cannot/should not be used as such

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

...

Good point! Perhaps the author was saying most, but not all are appointed to die once?

Keep seeking,
and YHWH Promises to reveal the TRUTH,
if you are willing.

hint: the difference from TRUTH with what you and others are struggling with is (apparently) partly or largely/entirely in
your idea of "die" vs YHWH'S meaning in His Word.
Without His overall view, without accepting His Word as TRUTH,
it will stay hidden.

 

[spockrates]

This question on the afterlife would gender the question "What authority are you going by? If the Bible is your authority, then heaven or hell awaits you. If Catholicism is your authority, then Purgatory awaits you. If something else is your authority then something else awaits you. But what we claim as authority, is not necessarily any real authority, therefore what it says awaits us is not necessarily what really awaits us.

Well, I suppose God would be a good a reliable authority. The question is, I suppose: Is the Bible, or the Catholic Church, or something else a spokesperson for him?

 

[spockrates]

I think the whole idea of "ONCE" in Heb 9:27-28, well, the whole chapter; is Christ dying ONCE as opposed to old covenant of "High Priest going in ONCE A YEAR"

the whole book of Hebrews is about: "Christ established a NEW and BETTER covenant"

Christian reincarnationists, the few I have been exposed to, they do indeed affirm that
"ya die once, and there is JUDGEMENT afterwards"
(and that KRISIS, or judgement) leads to the soul's subsequent journeys

"for as in Adam all die" -- well, that's ONE DEATH right there -- right out of the gate for every body

I see many "deaths" and many "judgements"...

did Adam and Eve "die" the day that they ate the fruit?
God said they would, so somehow they did

does every person "die" as soon as they are born, like 'original sin'
becuz "in Adam all die" ?

lotta "judgements" --
Great White Throne Judgement, sheep and goats judgement, "few and many stripes" judgement, and Baema 'judgement seat of Christ' -- which I feel applies ONLY to saved Christians -- these different descriptions of various JUDGEMENTS are not all describing the same thing -- they're just NOT

I dont feel Heb 9:27 was written/inspired to DISMISS REINCARNATION, and cannot/should not be used as such

Perhaps you're correct, but that remains to be seen. The question to first answer before I can see is this: What is it that dies once?

 

[Anto9us]

What is it that dies once?

I would say the body and soul of an individual life.

But again, this "once to die" is still vague -- for the Bible also warns of "the Second Death"

and we are warned to fear "He that can destroy BOTH BODY AND SOUL IN HELL"...

I still see various deaths and various judgements

 

[spockrates]

I would say the body and soul of an individual life.

But again, this "once to die" is still vague -- for the Bible also warns of "the Second Death"

and we are warned to fear "He that can destroy BOTH BODY AND SOUL IN HELL"...

I still see various deaths and various judgements

Then if both the body and soul die, what is it that lives in the afterlife, in your view?

 

[spockrates]

I've wondered if Hebrews 9:27-28 might be speaking of the death and resurrection of mankind collectively, the death being through Adam and the judgment (being judged dead and in need of Jesus) through Christ. That would be the one type of death that would have only happened once, I think.

I know the reply wasn't meant for me. Hope you don't mind my asking. Are you saying the passage means this?

Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as [the human race is] destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.​

 

[spockrates]

What I've Learned

So I find it fascinating how easily the Bible can be interpreted (or perhaps misinterpreted?) to support the ideas of Hindu reincarnation or Buddhist rebirth. I see no biblical passage so far that obviously contradicts either. That doesn't necessarily mean scripture supports either concept. It might simply mean it's ambiguous enough to be misunderstood.

But does anyone still disagree?

 

[Rajni]

I know the reply wasn't meant for me. Hope you don't mind my asking. Are you saying the passage means this?

Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as [the human race is] destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. ​

That's what I've wondered. Individual humans have been known to die more than once, which is different from what the passage is saying if it's speaking of individuals rather than of the collective. The collective death is spiritual, in Adam.

 

[CrystalDragon]

They could, potentially, be a vision, but that idea of limbo, or 'souls' rising from the grave without a body and separate from the body, is not at all in Scripture... not for Humans.
(perhaps demons /evil spirits never human/ are in a kind of 'limbo' as they go to and fro seeking a hapless body to cause trouble for (inhabit as written in Scripture) ,
and yes, 100% of those apparitions , aside from visions, could easily be demonic)
(and, for the last half century or longer, potentially (as is the case often) manmade (like holograms))

People thought illnesses were demonic back then, or plagues by God before that. We know better now.

 

[spockrates]

That's what I've wondered. Individual humans have been known to die more than once, which is different from what the passage is saying if it's speaking of individuals rather than of the collective. The collective death is spiritual, in Adam.

So let's consider a test case:

John 11:32-41 When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. “Where have you laid him?” he asked. “Come and see, Lord,” they replied. Jesus wept. Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?” Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. “Take away the stone,” he said. “But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.” Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?” So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me.
​

I suppose we should answer this question: Is the body of Lazarus that dies the same body that walked out of the burial tomb?

 

[Rajni]

So let's consider a test case:

John 11:32-41 When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. “Where have you laid him?” he asked. “Come and see, Lord,” they replied. Jesus wept. Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?” Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. “Take away the stone,” he said. “But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.” Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?” So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me.
​

I suppose we should answer this question: Is the body of Lazarus that dies the same body that walked out of the burial tomb?

I would think so, just as in any case of clinically-dead individuals who were revived by a good jump-start. It's just such cases that lead me to conclude that individuals have been known to die more than once, and that therefore the appointed-once-to-die referred to the collective spiritual death of all mankind.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

People thought illnesses were demonic back then, or plagues by God before that. We know better now.

No. YHWH's Word is TRUTH. Demons are very prevalent today, in every town, just as then. And the power to cast them out is still in Y'SHUA'S NAME, as always, and not in 'false religion', not in fake 'exorcism' shows done by fake religious leaders and actors.

 

[Greg Merrill]

Then if both the body and soul die, what is it that lives in the afterlife, in your view?

Hope you don't mind me replying here. Those that do not trust in God at their death will continue to exist consciously in eternal separation from God. They can move, think, interact, ect., but not with God, and God refers to them in this state as "dead". To be "alive" in this sense is to be united with God. All will be resurrected from the dead physically, and be caused to live/exist in that state forever, either with God, or separated from God. John 5:28-29; Mark 9:44; Revelation 20:12-15. If ones spirit is separated from their body they are physically dead (James 2:26). If ones spirit is separated from God they spiritually dead.

 

[RaymondG]

Hope you don't mind me replying here. Those that do not trust in God at their death will continue to exist consciously in eternal separation from God. They can move, think, interact, ect., but not with God, and God refers to them in this state as "dead". To be "alive" in this sense is to be united with God. All will be resurrected from the dead physically, and be caused to live/exist in that state forever, either with God, or separated from God. John 5:28-29; Mark 9:44; Revelation 20:12-15. If ones spirit is separated from their body they are physically dead (James 2:26). If ones spirit is separated from God they spiritually dead.

So there are no demons poking them with pitch forks while then burn in eternal agony?

 

[Greg Merrill]

So there are no demons poking them with pitch forks while then burn in eternal agony?

I doubt it. The demons and Satan himself will be absorbed with their own punishment upon themselves, not ruling in Hell as some erroneously depict.

 

[spockrates]

I would think so, just as in any case of clinically-dead individuals who were revived by a good jump-start. It's just such cases that lead me to conclude that individuals have been known to die more than once, and that therefore the appointed-once-to-die referred to the collective spiritual death of all mankind.

Yes, I see what you mean. I suppose it's possible a new body was created from nothing of Lazarus. One might then say the two bodies of Lazarus each died only once.

But then there's the child being carried to her tomb in a funeral procession. Jesus told her to "wake up," and she did. No evidence of a new body there, so her one body could have died twice. Then again, we don't know. It's possible both were raised with immortal bodies, and were taken up into heaven, as Elijah was, if such a thing is possible.

 

[spockrates]

Hope you don't mind me replying here. Those that do not trust in God at their death will continue to exist consciously in eternal separation from God. They can move, think, interact, ect., but not with God, and God refers to them in this state as "dead". To be "alive" in this sense is to be united with God. All will be resurrected from the dead physically, and be caused to live/exist in that state forever, either with God, or separated from God. John 5:28-29; Mark 9:44; Revelation 20:12-15. If ones spirit is separated from their body they are physically dead (James 2:26). If ones spirit is separated from God they spiritually dead.

Don't mind at all, thanks. So the body dies once and the spirit lives on. Do you think it impossible such a spirit might reside in a second body before spiritual death?

 

[Greg Merrill]

Don't mind at all, thanks. So the body dies once and the spirit lives on. Do you think it impossible such a spirit might reside in a second body before spiritual death?

For unsaved people the body dies twice. We are familiar with the first death. Then Jesus will one day raise it from the dead, judge the unsaved person, who is then cast into a Lake of Fire for eternity, which is the second death (separation from God forever, in conscious existence which is not called life by God, but death. Followers of God may die once physically (or not if they are raptured). That body will be raised from the dead in a changed, glorified, physical state, never to die again. John 5:28-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53; Revelation 20:11-15.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, I see what you mean. I suppose it's possible a new body was created from nothing of Lazarus. One might then say the two bodies of Lazarus each died only once.

But then there's the child being carried to her tomb in a funeral procession. Jesus told her to "wake up," and she did. No evidence of a new body there, so her one body could have died twice.

Lazarus 'old' body was raised up and he walked (still wrapped in what he was buried in) out of the tomb.

The understanding of something so simple still apparently only is available as a gift from YHWH,
when as it is written: " Then opened HE their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,",

Remember Jesus Himself said of both Lazarus (who was dead a little over 3 days and 3 nights ) and of the little girl , et al, they are asleep.
He said/says this of every one who trusted in Him from the New Testament on.

YHWH is very simple and clear IN HIS WORD, what is after this life.
And only YHWH is able to grant the understanding of His Word,
it does not come by study,
and especially not to those persisting in wickedness and sin.