Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

[Major1]

For anyone to accuse Catholics of Worshiping Mary is a sure sign that they do not understand the Catholic faith! Simples

Good morning my friend. I hope you are well.

Personally I do not know of one single Catholic person, and I know many, who will admit to the worship of Mary.

I would simply any Catholic believer to look at the question from the view of the Protestant believer.

First of all, ALL Catholics think very highly of her and honor her (the word they use is “venerate” — which means hold in high regard or treat with great respect, more than you would to a king, but less than you would to God), but they do NOT admit that is actually worshiping Mary or think she is equal with God at all.

Can you then see how that can cause confusion and questions? You see, the object of the "Veneration" becomes subjective.

Secondly, we as Protestants observe Catholics praying Mary, they put up pictures of her, they say the Hail Mary, can you see that can lead someone to see that action as worship?

Here’s my 2 cents on the issue: Worship is an attitude. It’s intentionally honoring someone as God. You can’t accidentally worship someone.

Wouldn't you agree that it all comes down to INTENT and in many cases that intent by some has lead to the worship of Mary?

So, if a Catholic is seen praying to Mary or kissing the feet of a statue of her, by the Protestant believer, are they worshipping? Again it really depends what is going on in their hearts and what they are intending to do. Are they trying to bring honor and respect to the person God himself honored more than anyone or anything else in all of creation? Or do they see Mary herself as their savior and God? There’s a HUGE difference there.

You and most here on this site would say NO. We do not worship Mary. However, I believe that in your in your heart, YOU know that there are many, many Catholics who do in fact worship Mary.

 

[Dave G.]

 

[Goatee]

Matt.13:55......
"Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"

Why can't they be children of Joseph from another marriage?

St James was called the 'Brother of Our Lord'. This is being 'kinsman', for cousins german with the Hebrews were called brothers!

Brother Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

1 Peter 5
12 By Silva′nus, a faithful brother as I regard him, I have written briefly to you, exhorting and declaring that this is the true grace of God; stand fast in it. 13 She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark. 14 Greet one another with the kiss of love.

Peace to all of you that are in Christ.

Is Peter saying above that Silva'nus is his biological brother?

Is Peter saying above that Mark is his biological son?

 

[Goatee]

Good morning my friend. I hope you are well.

Personally I do not know of one single Catholic person, and I know many, who will admit to the worship of Mary.

I would simply any Catholic believer to look at the question from the view of the Protestant believer.

First of all, ALL Catholics think very highly of her and honor her (the word they use is “venerate” — which means hold in high regard or treat with great respect, more than you would to a king, but less than you would to God), but they do NOT admit that is actually worshiping Mary or think she is equal with God at all.

Can you then see how that can cause confusion and questions? You see, the object of the "Veneration" becomes subjective.

Secondly, we as Protestants observe Catholics praying Mary, they put up pictures of her, they say the Hail Mary, can you see that can lead someone to see that action as worship?

Here’s my 2 cents on the issue: Worship is an attitude. It’s intentionally honoring someone as God. You can’t accidentally worship someone.

Wouldn't you agree that it all comes down to INTENT and in many cases that intent by some has lead to the worship of Mary?

So, if a Catholic is seen praying to Mary or kissing the feet of a statue of her, by the Protestant believer, are they worshipping? Again it really depends what is going on in their hearts and what they are intending to do. Are they trying to bring honor and respect to the person God himself honored more than anyone or anything else in all of creation? Or do they see Mary herself as their savior and God? There’s a HUGE difference there.

You and most here on this site would say NO. We do not worship Mary. However, I believe that in your in your heart, YOU know that there are many, many Catholics who do in fact worship Mary.

No, Catholics do not worship Mary.

Go to Lourdes and ask. I have been there several times. Ask them.

Remember, you are judging by what you 'think' you are witnessing!

 

[Tangible]

Also according to Holy Scripture, on the SPECIFIC matters of healing the blind and the paralytic (both of which have happened at Lourdes), Jesus asked "Can Satan cast out Satan?"

So, you answer me - in light of the healing of the blind and paralytic at Lourdes - can Satan cast out Satan?

And if so, answer me: is what happened at Lourdes - the healing of the blind and the healing of the paralytic - done by the power of God or the power of Satan?

Isaiah 35
Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened,
and the ears of the deaf unstopped;
then shall the lame man leap like a deer,
and the tongue of the mute sing for joy.

Isaiah 61
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;

The prophesies you referred to were explicitly fulfilled by the ministry of Our Lord Jesus, not by Marian apparitions.

Mathew 11
Now when John heard in prison about the deeds of the Christ, he sent word by his disciples and said to him, “Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?” And Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see: the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. And blessed is the one who is not offended by me.”

I have already amply demonstrated from Holy Scripture that Satan can mimic the miraculous works of God in order to deceive and lead astray.

As I stated before, signs and wonders always accompany a message. The power behind the miracles is not established until the validity of the message is established. I would need to be certain that that message was from God, which is validated by its agreement with the prior revealed word of God as recorded in Holy Scripture. So I would ask two questions:

1) What was the message proclaimed by the Marian apparitions?

2) Does that message align perfectly with what God had already revealed to the Church in the Holy Scriptures?

 

[Tangible]

Half brothers: same mother, different fathers. Step brothers would have different mothers and fathers and joined by marriage of one of each of their parents. Either way, discussing it would lead to this years 567th round of the perpetual virginity of Mary.

No, step brothers. Different father (God), different mother (Joseph's previous wife). Raised by his step father. I'm glad we're not discussing it.

 

[Albion]

No, Catholics do not worship Mary.

Go to Lourdes and ask. I have been there several times. Ask them.

Of course they will deny it. They know that only God is to be worshipped. The real question is whether or not they are doing it without realizing it, defending their practices by splitting a hair that cannot be split.

 

[Goatee]

Of course they will deny it. They know that only God is to be worshipped. The real question is whether or not they are doing it without realizing it, defending their practices by splitting a hair that cannot be split.

When you pray, do you know what you are saying and to whom?

Do not judge on what you 'think' you see!

 

[Albion]

You are apparently missing the point (and changing your own position as outlined in the previous post). If you ask anyone "Do you engage in idolatry?" what do you think they are always going to answer?

Right. But that isn't the issue--what they think they are doing. The issue is whether what they actually do is correct or not.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I'm glad we're not discussing it.

Me too.

 

[Tangible]

Using the principle of the weaker brother, would it not be best not to be involved in something that could so easily be misunderstood as worship?

It could very easily lead to the condemnation by God of uninformed Roman Catholics who, not understanding the difference between worship and hyperdulia, are found to be actually worshiping Mary in spite of the official doctrinal position of the church. (1 Corinthians 8)

Additionally, if giving hyperdulia to the Virgin is very offensive to your Protestant brothers and sisters, would it not be better to abstain out of love and consideration for your brothers and sisters in Christ? (Romans 14)

1 Corinthians 8
Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.


Romans 14
Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”

So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

 

[Goatee]

You are apparently missing the point (and changing your own position as outlined in the previous post). If you ask anyone "Do you engage in idolatry?" what do you think they are always going to answer?

Right. But that isn't the issue--what they think they are doing. The issue is whether what they actually do is correct or not.

What are they doing then?

You see someone kneeling in front of a crucifix............what are they doing? Does God know what is in their mind?

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Peace be with you.

Let me show you what I see:

To see things from another perspective.

This is why I think these people are going to have serious issues with Jesus during Judgment Day.

They minimise sin.

They try to persuade Catholics to commit Mortal Sin.


This is why I think they will be Condemned by Jesus and this is why I cannot take them seriously:


They make the claim they are Christians saved by Jesus.

Then these ingrates and betrayers come in Jesus' Name and tell Catholics to commit Mortal Sin by asking them to treat His Mother with Contempt, to treat Her like Nothing, to dishonour Mary, to forsake Mary, Jesus' Mother, in order to worship and honour Jesus.

They tell everyone, "Jesus saved me." "Do you guys know Jesus' Mother Mary is sinful?"

Does this make sense to you?

It does not make sense to me.

Do you understand what I am saying?

It's Ridiculous.


Let's say I am in the Army. In a battle, I saved my friend from death.

Then we go back home and my friend starts denigrating and treating my Mother with contempt and letting everybody know that my Mother has no value and should not be honoured and to treat Her with disdain and dishonour and that She is sinful.

And he tells everybody to dishonour Her, they are honouring me.

He tells everyone to Dishonour Gabriel's Mother is to honour Gabriel.

My friend tells everyone, "Gabriel's Mother is Sinful." "I am honouring Gabriel who saved my life by telling everyone, "Gabriel's Mother is Sinful." "I love Gabriel."


I am thinking my friend is not a very good friend.

I think I've got an ungrateful friend.

I saved him to dishonour my Mother.

Man, my friend makes me look stupid.

I really regret saving my friend.

He is a piece of turd.


God bless you.

 

[Goatee]

Peace be with you.

Let me show you what I see:

To see things from another perspective.

This is why I think these people are going to have serious issues with Jesus during Judgment Day.

They minimise sin.

They try to persuade Catholics to commit Mortal Sin.


This is why I think they will be Condemned by Jesus and this is why I cannot take them seriously:


They make the claim they are Christians saved by Jesus.

Then these ingrates and betrayers come in Jesus' Name and tell Catholics to commit Mortal Sin by asking them to treat His Mother with Contempt, to treat Her like Nothing, to dishonour Mary, to forsake Mary, Jesus' Mother, in order to worship and honour Jesus.

They tell everyone, "Jesus saved me." "Do you guys know Jesus' Mother Mary is sinful?"

Does this make sense to you?

It does not make sense to me.

Do you understand what I am saying?

It's Ridiculous.


Let's say I am in the Army. In a battle, I saved my friend from death.

Then we go back home and my friend starts denigrating and treating my Mother with contempt and letting everybody know that my Mother has no value and should not be honoured and to treat Her with disdain and dishonour and that She is sinful.

And he tells everybody to dishonour Her, they are honouring me.

He tells everyone to Dishonour Gabriel's Mother is to honour Gabriel.

My friend tells everyone, "Gabriel's Mother is Sinful." "I am honouring Gabriel who saved my life by telling everyone, "Gabriel's Mother is Sinful." "I love Gabriel."


I am thinking my friend is not a very good friend.

I think I've got an ungrateful friend.

I saved him to dishonour my Mother.

Man, my friend makes me look stupid.

I really regret saving my friend.

He is a piece of turd.


God bless you.

So true.

How do you think Jesus would want people to treat His Mother?

She is the Queen of Heaven. Holy Tabernacle of the Son of God.

I feel sorrow in my heart as people denigrate Her.

 

[Tangible]

So true.

How do you think Jesus would want people to treat His Mother?

With all the honor and respect due to her, and with none that is not.

She is the Queen of Heaven.

Someone else already goes by that name. And it isn't the Blessed Virgin Mary.

I feel sorrow in my heart as people denigrate Her.

As do I. She is certainly to be the most blessed among women.

I also feel sorrow when people ascribe to her a level of honor and praise for supposed abilities that approach the level of worship that is due only to Almighty God.

 

[Goatee]

Mary can and does intercede. Just like at Cana. She does intercede for us to Jesus.

 

[Tangible]

Mary can and does intercede. Just like at Cana. She does intercede for us to Jesus.

Absolutely. The Church Triumphant prays for the Church Militant. I have no doubt that St Mary prays for us and intercedes for us.

Whether she or any other departed saint can hear or be aware of statements or thoughts directed to them is another question entirely. According to scripture, I do not believe that they can. That would require a level of omniscience that only God possesses.

 

[Goatee]

Absolutely. The Church Triumphant prays for the Church Militant. I have no doubt that St Mary prays for us and intercedes for us.

Whether she or any other departed saint can hear or be aware of statements or thoughts directed to them is another question entirely. According to scripture, I do not believe that they can. That would require a level of omniscience that only God possesses.

The Saints offer up our prayers

Revelation 8:3
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;

 

[Tangible]

The Saints offer up our prayers

Revelation 8:3
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;

Ambiguous. Would need a clearer passage to confirm.

There is no command from God to pray to or through departed saints, no promise of God in scripture guaranteeing that departed saints hear our prayers, no canonical example of prayers being offered to or through departed saints (no, not even in 2 Maccabees 15, see below).

It's just not there. Read carefully. Not unless you can produce Maccabeus' golden sword anyway.

2 Maccabees 15
This Nicanor in his utter boastfulness and arrogance had determined to erect a public monument of victory over Judas and his forces. But Maccabeus did not cease to trust with all confidence that he would get help from the Lord. He exhorted his troops not to fear the attack of the Gentiles, but to keep in mind the former times when help had come to them from heaven, and so to look for the victory that the Almighty would give them. Encouraging them from the law and the prophets, and reminding them also of the struggles they had won, he made them the more eager. When he had aroused their courage, he issued his orders, at the same time pointing out the perfidy of the Gentiles and their violation of oaths. He armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief.

What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then in the same fashion another appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the family of Israel and prays much for the people and the holy city—Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”

Encouraged by the words of Judas, so noble and so effective in arousing valor and awaking courage in the souls of the young, they determined not to carry on a campaign but to attack bravely, and to decide the matter by fighting hand to hand with all courage, because the city and the sanctuary and the temple were in danger.

 

[Vicomte13]

Really?

It was evident that if Satan aided Jesus in casting out devils, the kingdom of hell was divided against itself; how then could it stand! And if they said that Jesus cast out devils by the prince of the devils, they could not prove that their children cast them out by any other power.

“Therefore they shall be your judges”: - They condemn you and your argument. They are conclusive witnesses against the force of your reasoning.

Christ was not satisfied by showing them the intrinsic absurdity of their argument. He showed them that it might as well be applied to them as to him. Your disciples taught by you and encouraged by you, pretend to cast out devils.

If your argument be true that a man who casts out devils must be in league with the devil, then "your disciples", and you who taught them, have made a covenant with him also. You must therefore either give up this argument, or admit that the working of miracles is proof of the assistance of God.

There are no men involved at Lourdes, just God and the ones healed. Your argument is odd - you seem to be making the same point I was making: the healing miracles at Lourdes prove the divine presence. You closing sentence seems to say that, so I'm not sure what we're in disagreement about.