Afterlife Alternatives

[the old scribe]

How we know what awaits us in the afterlife.
For the saved or the unsaved there is legitimate debate but any descriptive revelation uses figurative language. For the redeemed, along with the Apostle Paul we are yet to know what we will be, but when we see the Lord Jesus we will be something different from who we are now. If one needs to know more about this issue, the question should arise, "WHY?" The base problem with the repeated rebellions of the Israelites was they didn't trust the LORD. The believers relationship is all about trusting the LORD and not the need to know. If there is not a life after death, would you trust and serve the LORD? What is ones "Trust in God" about or is just words on US money?

However, for the un-redeamed, believers should be shouting in unison, "Your house is on fire!" if believers wish to see them saved.

 

[Anna Scott]

Thank you. So if you like, we can consider what the writer of Hebrews had to say:

Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
​

Reading this, should we say the writer would disagree with reincarnation?

This is a bit confusing, since numerous people were raised from the dead, meaning they would die a second time. So, it doesn't seem that all were destined to die once.

Elijah and Elisah raised people from the dead.
A man came back to life when his body touched Elisha's bones.
Jesus raised at least 3 people from the dead.
When Jesus breathed his last breath, graves opened and many saints were raised from the dead.
Peter and Paul raised people from the dead.

Where did the souls go, before they were resurrected in their bodies?

Of course, Jesus was resurrected. He is the only one who was raised from the dead and did not die a second time.

 

[Anna Scott]

I am curious, how come you always write reincarnation as "r&&nc&rn&t&&n"? It has piqued my interest.
Also, what of Matthew 16:14 "And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets."
It seems to imply that there was some idea of rebirth or reincarnation? Jesus refutes that he is one of those people, of course as all Christians would agree He is not.

You raised an interesting point.

(Emphasis is mine.)
Actually, in Matthew 11:13-14 (I would read the entire chapter for context,) Jesus claimed that John the Baptist is Elijah: "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John came; 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come." NRSV

In Matthew Chapter 17, Elijah and Moses appeared with Jesus, as witnessed by Peter, James, and John. John the Baptist was not mentioned.

In John 1:21, John the Baptist denied being Elijah.

This is very confusing to me.

 

[Basil the Great]

I entered into this discussion with a friend about this matter decades ago. He got a little upset and said that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah and thus met the prophecy. However, Malachi did not say that God would send someone in the power and spirit of Elijah, did he? No, he said that God would send Elijah!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This is a bit confusing, since numerous people were raised from the dead, meaning they would die a second time. So, it doesn't seem that all were destined to die once.

No worries - find out the meaning of the original from YHWH or , well, just from YHWH. (who else knows!?) (and can open the mind to understand?)

 

[Anna Scott]

No worries - find out the meaning of the original from YHWH or , well, just from YHWH. (who else knows!?) (and can open the mind to understand?)

Has God opened your mind to understand this? I'm not being flippant. I really want to know the answer.

 

[Anna Scott]

I entered into this discussion with a friend about this matter decades ago. He got a little upset and said that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah and thus met the prophecy. However, Malachi did not say that God would send someone in the power and spirit of Elijah, did he? No, he said that God would send Elijah!

You are right.

 

[Anto9us]

Somehow John the Baptist was
FULFILLING A PROPHETIC ROLE OF ELIJAH
in some sense, yet John was John, and Elijah was Elijah

Elijah appeared AS ELIJAH (as himself) on Mt of Transfiguration
along with Moses -- talking with Jesus...

Do they (Moses and Elijah) both have some role yet to do before the end?
Are those THE TWO WITNESSES to come? I dunno

That "people's concepts" of what reincarnation might entail WERE very confusing
in those times, that's for sure

was it Herod that thought Jesus WAS John the Baptist back from the dead?
(That's no 'reincarnation' as I have ever understood it)

 

[Anna Scott]

Somehow John the Baptist was
FULFILLING A PROPHETIC ROLE OF ELIJAH
in some sense, yet John was John, and Elijah was Elijah

Jesus didn't say John the Baptist came "FULFILLING A PROPHETIC ROLE OF ELIJAH." Jesus said, . . . ."if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come."

 

[Anto9us]

well, like you said, Anna, John the Baptist DENIED that he was literally Elijah

seems if he was John or if he was Elijah - he would be that whether or not any hearers of Jesus were "willing to accept it" or not -- I really don't understand this CONDITIONAL "if you are willing to accept it"

 

[Anto9us]

Heb 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Does that mean that if someone DOESN'T LOOK FOR HIM, that Jesus is NOT going to appear a Second Time?

 

[spockrates]

The verse right after this one states that He that liveth and believe shall never die. I think this should be our goal......as oppose to waiting to die and seeing what happens.

So let's see how these words of Jesus are incompatible with Hindu reincarnation or Buddhist rebirth.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
​

It seems obvious Jesus wasn't saying the body composed of matter never dies, for the bodies of Christians die every day. So would you say Jesus is telling us the immaterial soul never dies?

 

[spockrates]

Yes, I think you (or others) said that - along with what ? - a billion Hindu or Buddhist or whatever ?
It is however never authorized nor approved by YHWH,
rather r&&nc&rn&t&&n is always and fully directly opposed to YHWH'S WORD, thus Christians following YHWH do not believe in it at all.

Really? Please site one passage of YHWH's word that opposes it, so I may see for myself.

 

[spockrates]

I see.

So both Purgatory and Reincarnation are dismissed as "evil doctrines" -- "opposed to YHWH"...

yikes.

Catholic Christians and Reincarnationist Christians had better run for the hills...

btw, Reincarnationist Christians easily dismantle the one "clobber verse" usually thrown against them (Heb 9:27)

as it is appointed a man to die once, and judgement (krisis) afterwards

they certainly believe there is KRISIS following a mortal life,
which in part determines the next state,
whether a corporeal incarnation again, or a sojourn in an unseen realm

it helps NOT to read "after that THE JUDGEMENT" as if it said
"THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT"
which is how the reincarnation-clobberers make it out to be...

I personally do not believe in Purgatory, but would not dare to poo-poo a doctrine
that was around 15 centuries before Protestantism - obviously millions of Christians have believed in it for the last 2000 years

who sinned -- his parents -- or this man himself -- THAT HE WAS BORN BLIND?

AT THE VERY LEAST -- THAT DENOTES THAT REINCARNATION WAS A VIABLE OPTION TO THOSE PEOPLE AT THE TIME

Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
​

I personally wouldn't call myself a reincarnationist Christian. I'm just trying on a pair of reincarnation footwear and seeing how far I can stroll through the Bible before I'm forced to take them off. (There just might be some holy ground in scripture where removing these dusty shoes is required. That remains to be seen.)

That being said, what is it exactly that dies once in the passage of Hebrews you mentioned? Is it the material human body, or something else?

 

[tampasteve]

It is such a horrid , unbiblical concept.... used by the enemy to deceive multitudes, to their destruction if they do not repent.

Words only have power if you give it to them, I choose to not give these words power. A word is simply letters composed together, replacing them does not nullify the power of the word if you are the one giving it power.

Jesus Word (All Scripture) condemns
any idea of r&&nc&rn&t&&n ,
as He thwarted those who made those claims >>

Jesus rejected thos ideas always, exposed them as false.

Actually, He did not, He simply said that He was not John or one of the profits, but the idea was not refuted. When Jesus refutes an idea, he is usually explicit or at least spoke a parable about it. For example in Mark 12 when the Sadducees question Jesus over the resurrection and their non-belief in it.

 

[RaymondG]

So let's see how these words of Jesus are incompatible with Hindu reincarnation or Buddhist rebirth.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
​

It seems obvious Jesus wasn't saying the body composed of matter never dies, for the bodies of Christians die every day. So would you say Jesus is telling us the immaterial soul never dies?

Yes, I wasnt talking about flesh and blood....As the bible clearing state that those cannot inherit the kingdom of God. But I am not my body. I believe that, in patience, in this life, we can possess ye our souls. We can be born from above yet still use our bodies while they are available. Once we are able to live and walk in the spirit....our sense of death disappears.....When the body dies, it would be more like totaling a car....you get up and walk away. So those who have not done this...they believe they are the car, and die with the car. My goal would be to not believe what i just said.....but to know it.....which can only happen through experience.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Has God opened your mind to understand this? I'm not being flippant. I really want to know the answer.

"Not as if I have achieved the final goal..."
Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have ...
biblehub.com/philippians/3-12.htm
I don't mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have ... Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, ...

but more the promise of YHWH to all His children as Jesus revealedand said is required / if any are to understand)
Luke 10:21 - Bible Gateway
Luke 10:21 - Bible Gateway
At that time he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of ... things from wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes:

 

[spockrates]

...

This is a bit confusing, since numerous people were raised from the dead, meaning they would die a second time. So, it doesn't seem that all were destined to die once.

Elijah and Elisah raised people from the dead.
A man came back to life when his body touched Elisha's bones.
Jesus raised at least 3 people from the dead.
When Jesus breathed his last breath, graves opened and many saints were raised from the dead.
Peter and Paul raised people from the dead.

Where did the souls go, before they were resurrected in their bodies?

Of course, Jesus was resurrected. He is the only one who was raised from the dead and did not die a second time.

Good point! Perhaps the author was saying most, but not all are appointed to die once?

 

[spockrates]

Yes, I wasnt talking about flesh and blood....As the bible clearing state that those cannot inherit the kingdom of God. But I am not my body. I believe that, in patience, in this life, we can possess ye our souls. We can be born from above yet still use our bodies while they are available. Once we are able to live and walk in the spirit....our sense of death disappears.....When the body dies, it would be more like totaling a car....you get up and walk away. So those who have not done this...they believe they are the car, and die with the car. My goal would be to not believe what i just said.....but to know it.....which can only happen through experience.

Yeah, I think you're right. Now in the case of reincarnation, the soul doesn't die, either. So I'm unsure how Jesus' words in John 11 are proof reincarnation is unreal.

 

[Rajni]

This is a bit confusing, since numerous people were raised from the dead, meaning they would die a second time. So, it doesn't seem that all were destined to die once.

Elijah and Elisah raised people from the dead.
A man came back to life when his body touched Elisha's bones.
Jesus raised at least 3 people from the dead.
When Jesus breathed his last breath, graves opened and many saints were raised from the dead.
Peter and Paul raised people from the dead.

Where did the souls go, before they were resurrected in their bodies?

Of course, Jesus was resurrected. He is the only one who was raised from the dead and did not die a second time.

I've wondered if Hebrews 9:27-28 might be speaking of the death and resurrection of mankind collectively, the death being through Adam and the judgment (being judged dead and in need of Jesus) through Christ. That would be the one type of death that would have only happened once, I think.