Salvation for the Dead

JacksBratt

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Repentance also requires a change in behavior which requires time. The thief on the cross had no time to completely repent. Thus, complete repentance is required only of those who are able to so.
This is quite possibly too. Repentance would be evident, as faith is, by the actions of the saved individual, over time.
 
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JacksBratt

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This refers to people in this life and not the dead who have no life.
If I can not save a person who is living now, by my actions, works, money, suffering or prayer..... how would this change if they died?
 
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JacksBratt

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No. My claim is that we can offer up atonement for even the unfaithful in hell. Christ's work is to be preached to all people in all places. And this completes the redemptive work of Christ.
This is very honorable of you, however, futile.
 
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JacksBratt

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This is redundant. We have already gone over this. Do you honestly believe that those in hell, who have fallen asleep in Christ, including, Adam and Eve, before the redemptive work of Christ was complete, was not saved?

The people that lived before the time of Christ do not live or never lived in the age of grace. This is the age that we live in, the age of grace. We are saved by Christ's gift of salvation. Before Christ, there was the law.

Those that passed to their grave before this age of grace, will be judged by God in a truly righteous and just manner based on the righteous and just method by which God judges them. All in all........none will be without excuse.
 
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Episaw

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It is common practice for the dead in purgatory to obtain indulgence from God through the Catholic Church for remission of their sins (CCC X. Indulgences). This practice seems to come from 2 Maccabees 12:38-46.

These indulgences are limited to those who die in the communion of saints (the faithful).

I take this practice one step further. I believe that we can offer up our own good works for the atonement of the dead in hell. Nowhere in Maccabees does it say that atonement is limited to the dead in “purgatory.”

In your post I detect a false spirit speaking. One that wants people to believe another gospel. Only the Catholic church believes in purgatory and earning your salvation (for you and for others) and quotes the book of Maccabees as authoritative.

The only indulgence you are allowed is to follow the teaching of Scripture about salvation by faith, not works. And you have substituted spiritual guidance with natural thinking.

We are told to let the dead bury the dead.
 
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notforgotten

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This is RANK HERESY! to believe this will damn lost souls to eternal damnation as it gives them a FALSE hope!
Wrong! It allows us to share in the redemptive work of Christ and partake in the heavenly business of saving lost souls. God has dealt every man a measure of faith.

Romans 12:3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
 
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JacksBratt

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I liked your post. But repentance is not required for those who cannot repent.

The dead cannot do anything. Everyone is given their days on earth. In that time they will either accept the gift of salvation, be cognitive of their sinful way, seek forgiveness and repent.

After they die... their time is past.

It would be nice to believe that there was hope for unsaved people after they die. However, the bible indicates that this is not the case.
 
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JacksBratt

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Wrong! It allows us to share in the redemptive work of Christ and partake in the heavenly business of saving lost souls. God has dealt every man a measure of faith.

Romans 12:3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Again, this is a pleasant dream. Wouldn't it be nice to pray for poor old uncle Harry who just didn't get it. Now he is in hell and we have to get him out...... Sorry uncle Harry....we are powerless.
 
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notforgotten

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Look to the words of Jesus. Works for me. Can you prove that at or after judgment day you will be given a second chance? Are you willing to stake your salvation on it, and stake the salvation of those you might convince?
I wouldn't stake my salvation on the chance that someone would come along and offer up atonement for my sins. Although, I do believe that this can be done.
 
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notforgotten

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Again, this is a pleasant dream. Wouldn't it be nice to pray for poor old uncle Harry who just didn't get it. Now he is in hell and we have to get him out...... Sorry uncle Harry....we are powerless.
I am sorry to see that your eyes cannot not see the fullness of God's love.
 
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Christodoulos

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I wouldn't stake my salvation on the chance that someone would come along and offer up atonement for my sins. Although, I do believe that this can be done.

Huh? But this is the Message of the whole Bible! mankind has sinned against the Holy God of the Bible and is damned to eternal punishment in hell. Jesus, God Incarnate came to take OUR place and die for OUR sins, so that we, by fully trusting in His Atonement, and truly repenting (saying that we are sorry for our sins), and believing in Jesus as our Saviour and Lord, can indeed be forgiven and have eternal life! I really don't know where you get your "theology" from, as it is certainly not from the Holy Bible! What do you think is the reason for Jesus' First Coming? The New Testament is very clear on this:

"And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." (Hebrews 9:27-28)

The First Coming of Jesus was to bear the sins of the world, and offer an Atonement for those who would truly repent and accept this free offer. The Second Coming of Jesus, is for the Judgement of those who reject this Atonement. This passage in Hebrews also clearly show that after the death of any human being, is "judgement", NOT "post-death salvation"!
 
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notforgotten

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JacksBratt

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I am sorry to see that your eyes cannot not see the fullness of God's love.
Well, it is of no consequence.

Unless you are living your life in expectation of someone saving your soul after you die. But I doubt that this is the case.

However, anyone leaning on this as a salvation plan, based on your teaching, coaching or mentoring..... will find themselves in dire straits at the time of their death.

You, would then be charged with causing someone to fall....
 
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notforgotten

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Perhaps to allow for the fulfillment of scriptures when death and hades are emptied into the lake of fire. You appear to be inferring the exact opposite from the intended purpose of the keys. They are not to release spirits from hell due to works. They are to hold the door until it is time for their release into the lake of fire.
Jesus acquired the keys to the gates of hell the moment heaven was opened up for us humans. The keys are clearly meant for those being released from hell and going to heaven.
 
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Der Alte

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I could tell you, but don't your 9 lexicons you're always touting as the greatest of all time give you this info?
They wouldn't give you any info re Origen & aionios because they totally ignore him and other Early Church Universalists on the subject, right
?
A lexicon will not tell me where the source you quoted from derived the information they referred to. The scholars do not ignore Origen they acknowledge that some of his writings were heretical.
"The classical use of timoria emphasizes the vindictive character of punishment. It was punishment that satisfied the inflicter's sense of outraged justice and that defended his own honor or that of the violated law. The meaning of timoria, then, agrees with its etymology.
Grammatical arguments with no, zero, none evidence!
"Kolasis refers to punishment that is designed to correct and better the offender. Thus Plato uses kolaseis and noutheteseis together. Several times in one passage in the Protagoras, Plato's use illustrates the distinction we have drawn.
Right about here the author should have quoted Plato, instead of vague references.
"For nobody punishes wrongdoers... because one has done wrong in the past (unless he is taking blind vengeance like a beast)... but for the sake of the future, in order that one may not do wrong again.
Which writing, which chapter?
"Plato's use of the terms may be compared with Clement of Alexandria's, who defined kolaseis as "particular instructions" and timoria as "retaliation for evil." Aristotle distinguished the terms this way: "Timoria [vengeance] and kolasis [corrective punishment] differ, for corrective punishment is on account of the one suffering wrong, but vengeance is on account of the one doing wrong, that there may be satisfaction." Aulus Gellius referred to these and similar definitions.
Which writing, which chapter?
"It has been thought that there should be three reasons for punishing wrongs. One reason is what in Greek is called nouthesia [3559, rebuke] or kolasis [punishment] or parainesis [L-S 1310, admonition]. It is punishment applied for the sake of correcting or reforming in order that one who has erred accidentally may become more attentive and improved. Another reason is what those who have differentiated these words more exactly call timoria [vengeance]. This is the reason for punishing when the dignity and prestige of the person wronged must be protected in order that an omission of punishment may not make him despised and diminish his honor. For that reason people think that this word was derived from the preservation of honor [time, 5092]. "
Grammatical arguments with no, zero, none evidence! One person giving his opinion this word means this, that word means that and another word means something else. And his personal opinions on reasons for punishing. If one thinks e.g. "nouthesia [3559, rebuke] or kolasis [punishment] or parainesis [L-S 1310, admonition]" he should give some documented evidence. For example the definition of parainesis from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon.
παραινέω impf. parhv/noun ( Pind. , Hdt. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , Philo , Joseph. ; Test. Gad 6:1) advise, recommend, urge tinav (instead of the class. dat .; cf. Bl-D. §152, 3; Rob. 475; and s. Ps.-Callisth. 3, 4, 16 parhv/noun to;n jAlevxandron oiJ Makedovne" ; IG I 2 7, 51, 11 [III AD ] al. ) w. inf. foll. ( Jos. , Bell. 5, 87 f , Ant. 1, 201.— Bl-D. §392, 1d; 409, 5; Rdm. 2 121; 226) Ac 27:22 . Abs. ( Dit., Syll. 3 89, 40) w. direct disc. foll. IMg 6:1; foll. by levgwn aujtoi`" and direct disc. Ac 27:9 (on the impf. parhv/nei cf. Bl-D.
§328). tiniv ti recommend someth. to someone ( Oenomaus in Euseb., Pr. Ev. 5, 25, 1; Philo , Poster. Cai. 13) ISm 4:1. ti; (Chio, Ep. 16, 1 parhv/noun tau`ta ) Lk 3:18 D.—KWeidinger, Die Haustafeln: Ein Stück urchristlicher Paränese, ’28. M-M. *
Link: A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker
Oops your guy must have quoted from Strong's, which has been shown to have about 15,000 errors or omissions, instead of a reliable lexicon..
Normally the accuser can point out the alleged misrepresentation, rather than just deny & deflect. I'm still waiting.
I did I restated what I actually said.
 
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notforgotten

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The people that lived before the time of Christ do not live or never lived in the age of grace. This is the age that we live in, the age of grace. We are saved by Christ's gift of salvation. Before Christ, there was the law.

Those that passed to their grave before this age of grace, will be judged by God in a truly righteous and just manner based on the righteous and just method by which God judges them. All in all........none will be without excuse.
God's love and grace goes beyond the scope of time. Those who have fallen before the Lord's Passion have received God's grace and are now in heaven.
 
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notforgotten

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Huh? But this is the Message of the whole Bible! mankind has sinned against the Holy God of the Bible and is damned to eternal punishment in hell. Jesus, God Incarnate came to take OUR place and die for OUR sins, so that we, by fully trusting in His Atonement, and truly repenting (saying that we are sorry for our sins), and believing in Jesus as our Saviour and Lord, can indeed be forgiven and have eternal life! I really don't know where you get your "theology" from, as it is certainly not from the Holy Bible! What do you think is the reason for Jesus' First Coming? The New Testament is very clear on this:

"And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." (Hebrews 9:27-28)

The First Coming of Jesus was to bear the sins of the world, and offer an Atonement for those who would truly repent and accept this free offer. The Second Coming of Jesus, is for the Judgement of those who reject this Atonement. This passage in Hebrews also clearly show that after the death of any human being, is "judgement", NOT "post-death salvation"!
You are not following me here. I was referring to the atonement that can be made through Christ for the dead in the afterlife. This my friend is scriptural! You merely fail to see it. We see God, as God sees us, through our hearts, and not through our minds. Peace.
 
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Der Alte

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In this vs. Paul is addressing Christians at Corinth. He did not say "Why then are you baptized for the dead?" He is talking about "they" some other group not the Corinthian Christians. Other than this one verse is there any credible, verifiable, historical evidence that Christians practiced baptism for the dead? A doctrine should not be based on one ambiguous verse.
I beg to differ. A doctrine can be based on one verse, if it truly is the infallible work of God.
Okay, I'll bite. Please show me how this ambiguous verse about baptism for the dead supports or is supported by any other scripture? It is true that everything included in the Bible is the word of God but that does not mean that everything in the Bible is in accordance with the will of God. I see many things spoken by e.g. pagan kings, roman soldiers. Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes etc. that are not in accordance with the will of God. Paul said "why are they [some one else] baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say "why are you [Corinthians] baptized for the dead?"
 
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JacksBratt

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Jesus acquired the keys to the gates of hell the moment heaven was opened up for us humans. The keys are clearly meant for those being released from hell and going to heaven.
This brings up a very good point. The keys to hell...

The doors or gate is locked... but by whom?

One must ask, is hell's gate locked from the inside, by the inhabitants, or from the outside by the keeper of the gate?

It is my belief that Hell is locked from the inside. Otherwise this verse would make no sense:


Matthew 16:1821st Century King James Version (KJ21)

18 And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Why would these gates prevail against the church if the church or the side of righteousness was keeping the door locked.

The door, being locked from the inside, is inhibiting the church from doing something. Not the other way around.

Sounds to me like those in hell have locked themselves there to keep from going or being somewhere else.

If the lock is sufficient for Christ to go and get the key, these inhabitants are pretty serious about being there.

I don't think that the prayers of humans on earth are going to be welcomed if these beings are there on purpose.
 
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