Salvation for the Dead

[Light of the East]

Though death closes the door of opportunity, is it possible that, being raised to life again, the soul facing Christ and being judged might after Judgement be granted an opportunity to enter through Him? After all, they have been raised to life, and are no longer dead.

And as mortal sin requires full knowledge and unrepentance, is it also not possible that the only truly mortal sin would be to know and then reject Christ?

I don't want to contradict Truth. I'm just asking if there is room for such possibility within the parameters of Catholic teachings.

Depends on what flavor of Catholic you are. If you are Roman, it appears that your Catechism has spoken and therefore, there is no recourse to believing anything else. This is not so in the East, as I understand it.

 

[PeaceB]

Okay. Which is more binding upon the human being - the musings of the Catechism of the Church or the revelation of divine Scripture, which nowhere teaches an eternity of torment for the wicked?

Well, I obviously believe that Scripture teaches hell, and that it is forever, so I must object to your question as assuming facts not in evidence.

 

[Light of the East]

Here's another one. God creates 1000 children. He let's them free.
The ones that return to him are His. Not all return to Him.
Letting go is important, becasue people like their freedom.
If you create something with a choice to leave, some do.

There is no "restoration" to slavery if a person is created free.

By what possible dint of thought do you think anyone to be truly free in this life? We are filled with evil desires because of the sin of Adam. We are corrupted. We more easily sin than turn to righteousness, even as believers. What "choice" do we have other than to sin? Only if we were like Adam in the Garden before the Fall could we be said to be truly free.

And even Adam didn't know the fullness of Christ as we can now because of the Cross. What child, seeing His Father sacrifice everything of value for that child's redemption, would not return? What child would choose to stay in rebellion?

 

[PeaceB]

Depends on what flavor of Catholic you are. If you are Roman, it appears that your Catechism has spoken and therefore, there is no recourse to believing anything else. This is not so in the East, as I understand it.

Do you guys have a separate Catechism that I could refer to? FWIW, there are some parts of the Catechism to which Catholics (Latin or otherwise) are free to hold varying opinions about. We don't hold that every single word of the Catechism is dogma.

I wonder if Trent or any of the other councils confirm that hell is eternal. I cannot remember anything specifically on point, but I will see if I can find it.

 

[Light of the East]

PLEASE ONLY use the Holy Bible for Doctrines.

Really???

Honestly, I read that and almost spit my coffee all over my monitor.

Is that the reason that you non-Catholics have 40,000 different denominations, none of which can agree with each other? You have at least 25 different understandings of baptism by you folks who are Bible-believing? How's come if the Bible is so simple to understand y'all can't get it together dogmatically?

 

[Light of the East]

Do you guys have a separate Catechism that I could refer to?

I can't speak to the other 21 Churches in the Church, but the Ukrainians have their own Catechism. It is a green book called CHRIST OUR PASCHA.

There is, for instance, NOTHING about Indulgences in it. We don't "do" Indulgences.

 

[Light of the East]

We don't hold that every single word of the Catechism is dogma.

Really? Wow! I never heard that. What I have heard from my Roman friends is that I must believe all that the Catechism teaches.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="Light of the East, post: 71436841, member: 336257"]The Scriptures are the Written Word. Christ Jesus is the Living Word of God. Could it be that some will have their understanding opened here and now[/QUOTE] It is written.

...some will have the opportunity after death, having never heard the Written Word but standing in the very presence of the Living Word?

It is written we (in Christ, who repented before we perished) will be as He is. Those outside of Christ, are already condemned. (even before they die)

Would you narrow down God's mercy to only this lifetime and why? For what reason?

It is written.
Learn God's Word today, and you won't any longer tempt others to doubt His Word nor cause them to stumble in error.

the musings of the Catechism of the Church

Are in error, not understanding, not in line with God's Word at all, ever.

the revelation of divine Scripture

Always truth, always in perfect harmony with all of God's Plan, God's Word, God's Salvation in Jesus, Perfectly. (and thus opposed to man's traditions and catechisms, most of the time)

 

[Light of the East]

Always truth, always in perfect harmony with all of God's Plan, God's Word, God's Salvation in Jesus, Perfectly. (and thus opposed to man's traditions and catechisms, most of the time)

If the Written Word is so clear and understandable, perhaps you could tell me why there are 25 different modes of baptism among non-Catholics. Why there are 40,000 different denominations when Christ specifically prayed for us to be all one. Why none of these 40,000 denominations agree with each other (for if they did, they would unite, right?)

Perhaps you could tell me....

 

[PeaceB]

Really? Wow! I never heard that. What I have heard from my Roman friends is that I must believe all that the Catechism teaches.

I try to follow it, because better heads than me wrote it, but I never understood myself as being dogmatically bound to agree with each and every sentence of it.

For example, concerning paragraph 2267 of the Catechism, see the following:

Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion

3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

 

[notforgotten]

Hello, in the first place, there is NO hope for any person after they die. This is very clearly seen from Hebrews 9:27, "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment". In the Greek, "ἅπαξ" (once), is literally, "once and for all, one time), which rules out "reincarnation". After this time, when they have died, the only thing awaiting these, is "judgement", which is "κρίσις", noting, "punishment", and not "a second chance".

This is not true. As it is written here,

1 Corinthians 15:12. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

There is hope for those in the afterlife.

Secondly, you refer to 1 Peter 4:6, to support after death salvation. However, the verse does not say this at all. The phrase "the Gospel was preached", is from the Greek, "εὐαγγελίζω", which is the first aorist passive, which speaks of the Gospel Message that was preached to the dead BEFORE they died, when they were still alive. The strict use of the grammar in the Greek does not allow for any salvation after a person dies.

There are many interpretations for 1 Peter 4:6.

Here is the NIV translation,

1 Peter 4:6. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

The gospel was preached to the dead so that they can be saved.

Thirdly, the Bible warns time and again that we need to repent NOW, and not hope for some post-death possibility. There is not a shred of evidence in the Teachings of Jesus for any possibility of salvation after a person were to die. As it warns in Hebrews 3:13, "But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.". What is the point of "entreating" people to repent (as the context teaches), "TODAY", that is in this life, if there were a possibility after death?

We repent so that you we do not fall in hell. With the Churches today, falling short in the sight of God's abundance of love, it is highly unlikely that we will come across someone who would make atonement for us while we are in hell. Besides, we show our love for God through obedience. Don't you see what this thread is about? We, as Christians, have the opportunity to partake in the glory of Christ. And the family business of salvation. Do you honestly believe that God would want it any other way?

Fourthly, it would be a complete mockery that any person could be saved after they died. This will allow sinners to live a life that is completely in rebellion to God and everything He stands for and says in His Word, the Holy Bible, knowing that after they died, there was that opportunity to repent and go to heaven! So the sinner "wins" in this life, and in the next!!! Where then is the punishment for their sins???

I am convinced that the devil, who is the FATHER OF LIES, has deceived MILLIONS into believing fairy-tales about sin, salvation and the after life!

There is NO HOPE after you die, so we ALL must get right with God BEFORE we breath our last.

May God the Holy Spirit open our eyes to His Truth as taught in the Holy Bible, which is the ONLY sure Word of Almighty God

As my gracious Lord and Savior might say, "get behind me Satan."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If the Written Word is so clear and understandable

Jesus explained clearly to His disciples, yet even Peter did NOT UNDERSTAND at first ---
thus mankind, all the different sources you have learned from,
(apparently)
are in the same boat - NOT UNDERSTANDING, see ?

Why ?

Again, Jesus explained clearly to His disciples (the ones who walked in person with Him, and remained with Him, faithfully, as APOSTLES,

and even they did not understand at first - not at all - and JESUS

even chastised them : "oh ye of little faith" and "have you been with ME so long, and still do not understand?" and "how long must I put up with you? " and even stronger: "get behind me satan, because you think not the way of YHWH, but OF MAN"....

See ? WONDERFUL ! - no way man can figure out YHWH'S WAY....
not even believers, not ever,

not even the Apostles! See???

So why is all those sources you mentioned opposed to YHWH? Outside of Jesus ? Why?

Why did the Apostles have such trouble, as men chosen by YHWH to be His Own, learning YHWH'S WAY, even with JESUS teaching them?

Why ?

That, simply, is the key ... and few ever learn it... (as YHWH says in His Word, it is written)....

 

[notforgotten]

Hi, the Teachings of the Bible are our only true Guide on all matters, and not on our own thinking and feelings, or understanding.

We know from the Bible that God is Just, and cannot make any mistakes. Therefore, those who are meant to be in heaven, will be there, and those in hell, will be there. After a person dies there is NO HOPE. I ask you to provide ONE Scripture that says otherwise. I know 100% for a fact that there is not ONE.

I give you your ONE scripture that proves otherwise.

1 Corinthians 15:12. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

I pity you brother.

 

[Christodoulos]

This is not true. As it is written here,

1 Corinthians 15:12. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

There is hope for those in the afterlife.

Paul here is speaking of those who are already saved, when he uses "we" he always refers to those who are born-again. His argument here is that if Jesus were not raised from the dead, then there is no hope for any of us, as we would be still in our sins and lost and hell-bound. He does not say anything here about those who have died without Jesus as their Saviour. You are trying to force this meaning here.

There are many interpretations for 1 Peter 4:6.

Here is the NIV translation,

1 Peter 4:6. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

The gospel was preached to the dead so that they can be saved.

Again you are only seeing this verse the way you want to, and not what it actually says! I have shown from the Greek text, which is what the New Testament was originally written in, that the words, "gospel was preached", is from the Greek "εὐηγγελίσθη", where the tense is used to denote a "past action", when these who are dead were alive. We cannot force the Bible to say something that it does not. There is no point in providing English or any other language readings if they do not agree with the original Greek. I want you to show me from any Greek scholar, where they would agree with you that it refers to those who are now dead being preached to, and given a second-chance. We need to seek the truth, and not use Scripture to prop-up our pet doctrines

We repent so that you we do not fall in hell. With the Churches today, falling short in the sight of God's abundance of love, it is highly unlikely that we will come across someone who would make atonement for us while we are in hell. Besides, we show our love for God through obedience. Don't you see what this thread is about? We, as Christians, have the opportunity to partake in the glory of Christ. And the family business of salvation. Do you honestly believe that God would want it any other way?

You have a false hope that is based on a false understanding of what the Holy Bible actually Teaches!

As my gracious Lord and Savior might say, "get behind me Satan."[/QUOTE]

 

[Christodoulos]

I give you your ONE scripture that proves otherwise.

1 Corinthians 15:12. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

I pity you brother.

I don't need your pity, as it is you who has misquoted this verse. Read it in its context to better understand what it says

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Those who trust in roman, greek, pagan, heathen, or other traditions, or any other god instead of YHWH,

even though they claim to trust YHWH,
even though they claim to know JESUS, (experientially, in truth),
even though they claim "history", a big 'church', as their 'authority',

they are still, as always, opposed to JESUS, contrary to YHWH'S WAY,
and
lost.

It all started long ago, from trusting someone/ something instead of (anti-) YHWH, instead of (anti-) Christ,
and
continues daily, until the end of their lives,

unless they turn to God to be saved, and HE saves them by His Grace and Sovereign Grace and His Will, in JESUS,

same as every other person (BEFORE THEY DIE; no hope afterwards, ever, unless, of course, they are raised from the dead while still in the flesh/ body/ before resurrection)...

 

[notforgotten]

Hello, the biggest problem with post-death salvation, is that those who are dead will not have repented of their sins, which is a requirement FOR salvation. To assume that those in hades will be offered a "chance" to repent and have their sins forgiven is man-made wishful thinking, and not found in the Holy Bible. This whole thinking makes a mockery of sin, as it tells sinful people to live their lives as they please, committing every sin, with the knowledge that they could then have another "chance" to repent! As for those who never heard the Gospel of Salvation in Jesus Christ, we can be assured that the God of the Holy Bible is Just, and will do what is 100% Right. There is far too much speculation on the fate of the lost after death, and too much non-biblical nonsense that is being accepted by many. Stick to the Word of God, the Holy Bible, and you will never go wrong!

Repentance was not required of the thief on the cross. Nor, is it required or even possible for the dead.

For it is by the power of God that we are saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;...

We cannot salvage (restore) our own souls. It is by the divine power of Christ that our souls our salvaged after we die. This is done by His own powers and not of ourselves.

It is God's will that we repent and not a requirement for those unable to do so.

 

[Light of the East]

Jesus explained clearly to His disciples, yet even Peter did NOT UNDERSTAND at first ---
thus mankind, all the different sources you have learned from,
(apparently)
are in the same boat - NOT UNDERSTANDING, see ?

Why ?

Again, Jesus explained clearly to His disciples (the ones who walked in person with Him, and remained with Him, faithfully, as APOSTLES,

and even they did not understand at first - not at all - and JESUS

even chastised them : "oh ye of little faith" and "have you been with ME so long, and still do not understand?" and "how long must I put up with you? " and even stronger: "get behind me satan, because you think not the way of YHWH, but OF MAN"....

See ? WONDERFUL ! - no way man can figure out YHWH'S WAY....
not even believers, not ever,

not even the Apostles! See???

So why is all those sources you mentioned opposed to YHWH? Outside of Jesus ? Why?

Why did the Apostles have such trouble, as men chosen by YHWH to be His Own, learning YHWH'S WAY, even with JESUS teaching them?

Why ?

That, simply, is the key ... and few ever learn it... (as YHWH says in His Word, it is written)....

Nice dodge. Would you like to try again to answer my question? If salvation is all about and only about completely, clearly, and fully understanding the Bible, then why is there not clarity about the Bible, especially if God wishes to save all men?

You claim the Bible is the final word for our lives, yet it is so incomprehensible that there are 40,000 different non-Catholic denominations with their own teachings.

Yet there is still only one Catholic faith which is very simply and clearly established by reciting the Nicene Creed every Sunday.

 

[Christodoulos]

The Synod at Jamnia did not exist. It is a man-made myth that has been discredited. Even the Wikipedia article for the Synod says as much.

And if you are relying on Jewish people to decide what is and what is not Scripture, I can think of 27 books that would also go out.

I have a simple question for you. How is it that you know that the letter to the Hebrews is the inspired word of God? Because you bought a Bible from Amazon and Hebrews was included?

You reply without knowing my reasoning for what I wrote. I state facts that the 39 Books that Christians (I speak of those who are Bible-believing and not those who pretend to be "christians") receive in their Old Testament, are not something that was made up by them, but what the Jews already had in their possession, which is confirmed by their own authorities, as in Josephus, and the Synod at Jamnia. Why would you consider what Wikipedia says? Since when this this amateur rag become an authority?

The Book of Hebrews was accepted as Inspired and Canonical by the early Church, as confirmed by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in his famous thirty-ninth Paschal Letter in A.D.367, which was accepted by both the Western and Eastern Church. Both the Old and New Testament Canons of 66 Books, were completed under the guiding of God the Holy Spirit, and therefore the ONLY Word of Almighty God, and Infallible and Inerrant in all that it says. This is the original autographs. Anyone who cannot accept this, has no foundation on which to build, and all other "foundations" are sinking-sand!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Nice dodge. Would you like to try again to answer my question?

In place of all the confusion you noted, and whatever you trusted,

in truth, where do you think or hope to find the TRUTH ? How ?