Salvation for the Dead

notforgotten

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Let me try this another way. Let's use an analogy. I am a successful builder. I build and own a number of hotels and houses in my city. One night, an enemy goes around and sets fire to them all, burning them to the ground.

I rebuild half of them and leave the others to rot. Have I restored all to its former condition? Have I saved everything that I built? Is all my work redeemed?

I think not.

If the salvation of Christ does not save all, then how is it considered to be successful? If the devil could walk about hell and point to millions of tormented souls who will never be free of their torment, then he will have something to brag about, won't he? He will have something by which he can say "I won."

Are you getting the point? If Adam destroys all with his one act of disobedience, then for God to be successful, Christ must redeem all with His one act of obedience.
Very well written. I could not agree more.
 
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Christodoulos

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If only a very few get saved, then could you describe Christ's work on the Cross as successful?

Jesus Christ is Almighty God, as are the Father and the Holy Spirit, Who were all involved in the Redemption of lost mankind. Anything that the Triune God does is ALWAYS 100% SUCCESSFUL, and there is NO failure in the Godhead. Jesus provides the Atonement for lost mankind, it is up to each individual what they do with this. It is like me being sick, and I know that there is a doctor who has the remedy for my sickness. If I go to him for treatment, then I will be cured, should I decide not to, and I get worse or die, this cannot be because the doctor failed, but I did by my foolish actions!
 
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chevyontheriver

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Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades." Christ descended into hell and saved Adam who was a prisoner in hell. Please read from our book of Catechism,
Yer twisting the Catechism for your own ends. In doing so you are putting the Catechism, which does not say what you try to make it say, into a place of ridicule. It plainly says hell is real and permanent. Here's the Catechism quite straightforward on the subject:
IV. HELL
1033
We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire," and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":
Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.
And on judgment, the Catholic teaching is that it is final.
I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT
1021
Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.
Now if you wish to set aside Catholic teaching and believe something else, I can't stop you. But Catholic teaching is that some people can go to hell and that they will never ever get out. You are taking a big chance. Are you willing to bet you and everyone you convince will be saved in the end? What will they think of you if they end up not being saved in the end?
 
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Gabriel Anton

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God’s love is greater than the Catholic Church teaches.


Peace be with you.

I am afraid you don't understand the implications of what you are saying.

I'll give you an example just how much suffering one has to bear to save just 1 soul on Earth.

This is a real life Catholic example.

There was once a Catholic woman who was married to a man.

Her husband was a sinful man who was destined for eternal death.

And she knew it in her heart.

She loved her husband very deeply and could not live with herself if he was separated from her eternally.

So she took it upon herself in her prayers to ask God for her husband's Salvation.

One day, she received a response from God.

The response was something like this, "Are you willing to pay the price for his salvation?"

Her response was, "Yes, life for life."

God replied, "We have a deal. You will suffer much pain for a period of time here and you will die and go to Heaven. Your husband, he will convert and become a Dominican monk when you depart. He will join you in Heaven later on."

She replied, "Let Your Will be done O God."

She suffered Horribly before she died.

And it happened just like that.

His wife before she died told him exactly what would happen to him after she died and the deal which she struck with God.

And he who became a Dominican Monk has testified that all this did indeed happen.

God bless you.
 
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chevyontheriver

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635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."484 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."485 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."486
Yer really not getting the distinction between sheol (Greek hades), and gehenna. This was evolving terminology in Judaism around the time of Christ. The depths of the dead (called sheol) is not what we today call hell, but a place of waiting until the gates of heaven could be opened by Jesus the firstborn from the dead. You have confused the terminology and thus confused yourself into believing folks can be redeemed from hell. Sadly they can't.
 
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JacksBratt

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Peace be with you.

I am afraid you don't understand the implications of what you are saying.

I'll give you an example just how much suffering one has to bear to save just 1 soul on Earth.

This is a real life Catholic example.

There was once a Catholic woman who was married to a man.

Her husband was a sinful man who was destined for eternal death.

And she knew it in her heart.

She loved her husband very deeply and could not live with herself if he was separated from her eternally.

So she took it upon herself in her prayers to ask God for her husband's Salvation.

One day, she received a response from God.

The response was something like this, "Are you willing to pay the price for his salvation?"

Her response was, "Yes, life for life."

God replied, "We have a deal. You will suffer much pain for a period of time here and you will die and go to Heaven. Your husband, he will convert and become a Dominican monk when you depart. He will join you in Heaven later on."

She replied, "Let Your Will be done O God."

She suffered Horribly before she died.

And it happened just like that.

His wife before she died told him exactly what would happen to him after she died and the deal which she struck with God.

And he who became a Dominican Monk has testified that all this did indeed happen.

God bless you.
I disagree with this analogy, or supposed true story. It goes against any biblical teaching. The man could only be saved by his own change of heart and repentance on his own accord.

The woman could do no earthly works and suffer no amount of earthly pain, even to save herself, let alone another human. Then, you have the man doing his own works to be saved..

Sorry but Christ is the only way. His death and resurrection paid the price. No man cometh unto the father but through Him.

"For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the
GIFT of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."
EPHESIANS 2:8-9

It is sad that this sort of thing, earning passage or earning forgiveness or earning God's favor, is taught anywhere.....

I saw it ruin my father in law. He spent his entire life sitting on a spring that sent him out of any chair he was sitting in and off to help whoever he saw and thought needed a hand. Even to the point of causing awkward and inappropriate situations.

The lengths that he went to were not out of pure kindness. They were carefully cultivated from years of teaching that this is what he must do to find favor with God.

It would have been much different if it were heart felt, but it was a feeling of duty. He was a slave to these "works".

Christ's burden and yoke is easy. 'my yoke is easy and my burden is light' (Matthew 11:30)?"
 
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JacksBratt

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It was also preached to the dead.
I think this has been brought up before in this thread and shown that it does not mean that dead people heard Jesus speak and were saved from their death and punishment.

It only takes a few minutes to research the context of this scripture and understand that Christ was in the spirit and spoke through Noah, in Noah's days, as he spoke to the evil people before the flood came. Noah took about 100 years to build the ark. During this time he preached to the world around him. Jesus spoke through him in the spirit form of Christ.
Christ also shows up other times in the OT as Christ.

God works outside of the constraining walls of time.
 
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Phantasman

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Why was the gospel also preached to the dead?

1 Peter 4:6. For this reason the gospel was preached also to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in spirit.

And why does Jesus hold the keys to hell if the door cannot be opened?

Peter refers to The Truth (which Jesus was) entering Hades (the grave of all those who died before Truth came) and taught them and many accepted.


Matthew"
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

One must reject the Orthodox Catholic thought to see a different perspective of Matthews words.

"Still for a third time I went - I am the light which exists in the light, I am the remembrance of the Pronoia - that I might enter into the midst of darkness and the inside of Hades. And I filled my face with the light of the completion of their aeon. And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep.' And he wept and shed tears. Bitter tears he wiped from himself and he said, 'Who is it that calls my name, and from where has this hope come to me, while I am in the chains of the prison?' And I said, 'I am the Pronoia of the pure light; I am the thinking of the virginal Spirit, who raised you up to the honored place. Arise and remember that it is you who hearkened, and follow your root, which is I, the merciful one, and guard yourself against the angels of poverty and the demons of chaos and all those who ensnare you, and beware of the deep sleep and the enclosure of the inside of Hades.- Apocryphon of John

Catholics will call these words heresy, since the Church Fathers eliminated them some 300 years after Christ. But these words were part of the Christian tenet for almost 3 centuries.

I can no longer accept the celestial power that the Nicene Creed gave the Catholics as Gods power on Earth. Reading their history shows their fruits. And death is used as a device for control of the (spiritually) ignorant.

Sorry if I sound offensive, I don't mean to be. I just see it.......controversial, as this forum says.
 
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paul becke

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There would be no door or key, if this was the case. It is symbolic of Christ being the life of the dead. He, by His will, can free those in hell.


I have pointed out that we should not underestimate God's love.


I have said no such thing. I do not deny the love God has for us. And by the way, animals have a free will too. Have you ever had a pet?


Jesus would not have been "bitter" or angry towards Judas. He probably felt sorry for him. The ruinous fires of hell are undying for those who remain there. If you wish further discussion about this, could you please post scripture, so that I can see exactly what you are referring to. Thank you.

'If you wish further discussion about this, could you please post scripture, so that I can see exactly what you are referring to. Thank you.'

No. I'm sorry. I don't have time to do your research for you, but it is evident that you have no recollection of Christ's words concerning Judas having been found to have hanged himself.

The plain fact of the matter is, notforgotten, that your theology is a highly personal one, which bears no relationship to Jesus' and the Evangelists' express teaching concerning hell and its eternal punishments.

This quote in particular, squarely deals the 'coup de grace' to your personally-conceived eschatology :

'The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."' - Matthew 26:24

If it would 'all come out in the wash' for Judas one day, after he'd served a certain sentence in hell, why would Jesus have spoken about Judas' ultimate fate in such dire terms.
 
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notforgotten

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Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in life everlasting

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

. . .​

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

There is also the practice of obtaining indulgences from God through the Catholic Church for the dead in purgatory.

X. Indulgences

1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."84

In the Communion of Saints

1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God's grace is not alone. "The life of each of God's children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person."85

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things."86 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy."87

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."88

Obtaining indulgence from God through the Church

1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.89

1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.
 
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Not that I do not share doubts of purgatory, I do firmly believe in atonement for the dead in hell.

I ask you, why would Jesus hold the keys to hell, if the door could not be opened?

Jesus delivered the faithful dead when He descended into hell for three days before His resurrection.

1 Peter 4:6. For this reason the gospel was preached also to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in spirit.

Do you not believe in the eternal word of God?

Why is there baptism for the dead? in I cor 15:29
 
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JacksBratt

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There is also the practice of obtaining indulgences from God through the Catholic Church for the dead in purgatory.

X. Indulgences

1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."84

In the Communion of Saints

1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God's grace is not alone. "The life of each of God's children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person."85

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things."86 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy."87

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."88

Obtaining indulgence from God through the Church

1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.89

1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.
Full Question
One of the causes of the Reformation was the selling of indulgences. Does the Catholic Church still sell them?
Answer
That's like asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" The Catholic Church does not now nor has it ever approved the sale of indulgences. This is to be distinguished from the undeniable fact that individual Catholics (perhaps the best known of them being the German Dominican Johann Tetzel [1465-1519]) did sell indulgences--but in doing so they acted contrary to explicit Church regulations. This practice is utterly opposed to the Catholic Church's teaching on indulgences, and it cannot be regarded as a teaching or practice of the Church.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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as someone who takes the Catholic approach
See, that automatically removes truth - taking the approach that set man's word above God's Word, as they (for over 1000 years) readily confess, openly, and publish, as if it is okay.
 
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PeaceB

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Actually what 2 Maccabees 12:38-46 teaches is contrary to Rome, since what is offered is prayers and sacrifice for souls who were slain because of their idolatry, even dying with idolatrous amulets on them. And with no indication of repentance, or anything that repentance before death was a condition for their sin offering, but which offering was in the hope that this mortal sin they died in would be put away that they may be part of the resurrection of the just.

So Judas gathered his host, and came into the city of Odollam, And when the seventh day came, they purified themselves, as the custom was, and kept the sabbath in the same place. And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves. Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain. (2 Maccabees 12:38-40)

All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid, Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain. And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection:(2 Maccabees 12:41-43)

But Roman theology holds that their is no hope for those who die in mortal sin, and that those in her purgatory are already assured of salvation, but indulgences are offered as part of a quick release program for such.

As for "this practice seems to come from 2 Maccabees 12:38-46,"

The text does not state that they committed idolatry, nor does it state that they were in a state of mortal sin. The text indicates that they were slain because they held items that were consecrated to idols.

Besides, even if the slain were in a state of mortal sin, there is no way that the people who prayed for them could have known that, because nobody has the ability to see who is in hell (to this very day we still do not know whether those slain are in heaven or hell). The text indicates that they believed that their prayers could be efficacious for the dead, even if in this particular case those that they prayed for objectively were already in hell.

Aside from Roman theology here, 2 Mac is not Scripture,
You have no authority whatsoever to declare what is and what is not Scripture.
 
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notforgotten

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Then there is this quirky passage by the Apostle Paul where he's making the argument for the resurrection and throws in a tidbit about people being baptized on behalf of the dead.
It's just a passing line acknowledging the practice with no endorsement nor reproof.
I've often wondered about it.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain..

..And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied..

..Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?
1 Corinthians 15:18. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

This refers to all the faithful dead in hell whose spirits have fallen asleep before the Lord's resurrection. Salvation for the dead in hell is indeed, a reality. What needs to be addressed here is the complete fulfillment of the redemptive work of Christ. To complete this fulfillment, we must understand that atonement can be made for the unfaithful dead in hell. Otherwise, Christ's work has not been fulfilled, is incomplete and falls short. This is not characteristic of our magnificent Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
 
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PeaceB

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2/ Works of any man are of no use, to even himself, as far as earning or achieving salvation.
No, St. James disproves this idea with one statement (among many others): "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Please feel free to insert your vain attempt to make those words mean the exact opposite of what they clearly state below:
 
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Light of the East

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Ask the ONE WHOSE PLAN it IS.
Perhaps then " Then opened HE their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures," , in His Mercy,
He Will Grant understanding of the Scriptures.

The Scriptures are the Written Word. Christ Jesus is the Living Word of God. Could it be that some will have their understanding opened here and now, given the opportunity to hear the Written Word and believe, and some will have the opportunity after death, having never heard the Written Word but standing in the very presence of the Living Word?

Would you narrow down God's mercy to only this lifetime and why? For what reason?
 
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Light of the East

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Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in life everlasting

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

. . .​

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618


Okay. Which is more binding upon the human being - the musings of the Catechism of the Church or the revelation of divine Scripture, which nowhere teaches an eternity of torment for the wicked?
 
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PeaceB

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PLEASE do not take anything that you may read in "Catechisms", or "Homilies", or any other non-Biblical books, as what you can rely upon or hold to as being correct, they are NOT the Inspired Word of Almighty God!

For the Old Testament accepted Books in the "Canon", as divinely Inspired, we have the 39 (or 22 by the Jews who use a different way to group them) Books as found in translations like the King James Version. The same number of Books is given by the Jewish Historian, Josephus, who was born not long after Jesus died; and then the Synod at Jamnia in A.D. 90, where the leading Jewish authorities met to consider the Books of the Old Testament and the canon, and again ONLY the 39 Books are considered as Scriptures. Maccabeus, and the others that are not included, and not the Word of God and will not give any teachings that are Inspired and will lead many to deception and destruction. PLEASE ONLY use the Holy Bible for Doctrines.
The Synod at Jamnia did not exist. It is a man-made myth that has been discredited. Even the Wikipedia article for the Synod says as much.

And if you are relying on Jewish people to decide what is and what is not Scripture, I can think of 27 books that would also go out.

I have a simple question for you. How is it that you know that the letter to the Hebrews is the inspired word of God? Because you bought a Bible from Amazon and Hebrews was included?
 
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