Salvation for the Dead

chevyontheriver

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Sorry, no.
Scripture tells how to be saved,
Jesus tells how to be saved,
YHWH tells how to be saved,
and a few listen and are saved because they do what He Says BEFORE they die -
after they die, it is final, it is done, it is too late.
I agree with this, and so does the Catholic Church. We have the time before we die to determine whether we will be saved or not. Once we die, our 'die is cast' and we are bound ultimately for either heaven or hell. You and I would differ about purgatory, but it is nothing more than a temporary interlude for those already bound for heaven. The 'Four Last Things' spoken of by the Catholic Church are 'death', 'judgment', 'heaven', and 'hell'. Judgment is real, definitive, with no redo. I'm not going to argue with you about purgatory, because soon enough you will get to know all about it. I am just agreeing with you that being saved is all about what happens in that time before you die. It is an opportunity in the present.
 
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redleghunter

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Here it is in Catholic scripture. Expiation for the dead.

2 Maccabees 12:38-46.

38 So Judas having gathered together his army, came into the city Odollam: and when the seventh day came, they purified themselves according to the custom, and kept the sabbath in the place.

39 And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.

40 And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.

41 Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.

42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.

43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,

44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

The question I have is where exactly from TaNaKh did Judah and his cohorts get this practice of sacrifice for the dead? The Maccabees books are good history but nowhere in any of the Maccabees is a prophet heard "thus saith the LORD."

Historically, it was quite interesting times for the Jews. Considering the office of High Priest became dynastic and we don't know for sure if the Maccabees who served in the high priest positions were of the line of Aaron.

These things matter and is why, even though, as a historical work the Maccabees books are informative, no doctrine should be taken from them given no prophet 'spoke' in that era. Given purgatory and indulgences are a central doctrine of your church, one passage from a historical book with no voice of a prophet is quite thin.

Also, considering it was Church tradition prior to Trent the deuterocanonical books (of which the Maccabees were) were not to be sought out for doctrine. At the very least it was a hotly debated topic heading into Trent:

The Roman Catholic historian (and expert on Trent) Hubert Jedin, waded into the dispute leading up to and during Trent. He noted one respected theologian stanchly loyal to the Pope, Cardinal Seripando. Jedin explained “he was aligned with the leaders of a minority that was outstanding for its theological scholarship” at the Council of Trent.

Jedin elaborates:

“[Seripando was] Impressed by the doubts of St. Jerome, Rufinus, and St. John Damascene about the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament, Seripando favored a distinction in the degrees of authority of the books of the Florentine canon. The highest authority among all the books of the Old Testament must be accorded those which Christ Himself and the apostles quoted in the New Testament, especially the Psalms. But the rule of citation in the New Testament does not indicate the difference of degree in the strict sense of the word, because certain Old Testament books not quoted in the New Testament are equal in authority to those quoted. St. Jerome gives an actual difference in degree of authority when he gives a higher place to those books which are adequate to prove a dogma than to those which are read merely for edification. The former, the protocanonical books, are “libri canonici et authentici“; Tobias, Judith, the Book of Wisdom, the books of Esdras, Ecclesiasticus, the books of the Maccabees, and Baruch are only “canonici et ecclesiastici” and make up the canon morum in contrast to the canon fidei. These, Seripando says in the words of St. Jerome, are suited for the edification of the people, but they are not authentic, that is, not sufficient to prove a dogma. Seripando emphasized that in spite of the Florentine canon the question of a twofold canon was still open and was treated as such by learned men in the Church. Without doubt he was thinking of Cardinal Cajetan, who in his commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews accepted St. Jerome’s view which had had supporters throughout the Middle Ages.”
Source: Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), pp. 270-271.

Jedin continues:

“For the last time [Seripando] expressed his doubts [to the Council of Trent] about accepting the deuterocanonical books into the canon of faith. Together with the apostolic traditions the so-called apostolic canons were being accepted, and the eighty-fifth canon listed the Book of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) as non-canonical. Now, he said, it would be contradictory to accept, on the one hand, the apostolic traditions as the foundation of faith and, on the other, to directly reject one of them.”
Source: Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), p. 278.

Catholic historian Hubert Jedin also adds later:

“In his opposition to accepting the Florentine canon and the equalization of traditions with Holy Scripture, Seripando did not stand alone. In the particular congregation of March 23, the learned Dominican Bishop Bertano of Fano had already expressed the view that Holy Scripture possessed greater authority than the traditions because the Scriptures were unchangeable; that only offenders against the biblical canon should come under the anathema, not those who deny the principle of tradition; that it would be unfortunate if the Council limited itself to the apostolic canons, because the Protestants would say that the abrogation of some of these traditions was arbitrary and represented an abuse… Another determined opponent of putting traditions on a par with Holy Scripture, as well as the anathema, was the Dominican Nacchianti. The Servite general defended the view that all the evangelical truths were contained in the Bible, and he subscribed to the canon of St. Jerome, as did also Madruzzo and Fonseca on April 1. While Seripando abandoned his view as a lost cause, Madruzzo, the Carmelite general, and the Bishop of Agde stood for the limited canon, and the bishops of Castellamare and Caorle urged the related motion to place the books of Judith, Baruch, and Machabees in the “canon ecclesiae.” From all this it is evident that Seripando was by no means alone in his views. In his battle for the canon of St. Jerome and against the anathema and the parity of traditions with Holy Scripture, he was aligned with the leaders of a minority that was outstanding for its theological scholarship.”
Source: Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), pp. 281-282.
Source material can be found at this Google Books site:

Papal Legate at the Council of Trent


Also, Cardinal Cajetan another noted Catholic scholar of the before and during Trent era also voiced his opposition to including the deuterocanonical books as canon fidei:

In 1532, Cajetan wrote his Commentary on All the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament (dedicated to Pope Clement VII ). In this work, Cajetan leaves out the entirety of the Apocrypha since he did not consider it to be Canonical:

“Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the Bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the Bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.”

Cajetan Responds


My point? Even some of the greatest Catholic minds leading into Trent did not see the Maccabees books as 'canon' and worthy of use to determine doctrine.
 
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notforgotten

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While I laud your desire to be helpful to those in hell, I think it is a wasted effort. Those in hell got there because they rejected the love of God. They don't want it. They aren't there 'by mistake' or because they 'missed it by that much'. They decided that they WOULD NOT SERVE, and they are given their desire. It is a tragedy, but one they chose.
People are in hell because they did know know any better.

Luke 23:34. Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Now you might take consolation in the fact that we know of no human being actually in hell. Judas and Hitler might not be in hell. The Catholic Church affirms nothing about hell actually being populated. Just that it does exist and that it is a terrible place with much gnashing of teeth.
Jesus said,

Mark 14:21. The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

We know that Judas and others are in hell.

Above I said praying for those in hell was a wasted effort. But you don't know if a particular person actually is in hell. Your prayers might have some sort of benefit. If the person you are praying for is actually in hell, I'm sure God can make some other use of your prayer.

If you want to maintain that praying for the dead in hell can redeem them, well, that simply isn't a Catholic position. But to pray for those whose status is unknown is a noble thing. So do pray. Just don't maintain you can pray a person out of hell, Not gonna work. The time for praying for such a person is before they die. St. John Chrysostom was particularly clear about that.
Indeed, the Catholic Church does fall short of the love and glory of God. It is not just by prayer that the dead in hell can be saved. It requires an offering of atonement (good works) to Christ. Nowhere in scripture, does it say otherwise.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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I believe that we can offer up our own good works for the atonement of the dead in hell.

Only Christ was good enough to atone for those of us who are not in Hell. How do you, an innate sinner, expect to atone for those who have shed any manner of grace they had here on Earth?

I fear you underestimate God's love, my friend.

I fear you underestimate God's wrath.

As for me, I see no reason to expect Hell to be any less permanent than Heaven. There is nothing so final as death.
 
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chevyontheriver

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People are in hell because they did know know any better.
No they are not. They chose it. Nobody is in hell by accident.
We know that Judas and others are in hell.
No we don't know that. We could guess it, it might be likely, but we might be wrong.
It is not just by prayer that the dead in hell can be saved. It requires an offering of atonement (good works) to Christ. Nowhere in scripture, does it say otherwise.
The dead in hell, if there are any really there, and you say there are, are stuck there and will not be getting out. It's nice of you to think they can be saved. It really is. But Jesus had an attitude about hell that might be worth looking at. That is what says 'otherwise'.
 
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FenderTL5

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Well, Sir, as someone who takes the Catholic approach to cannon, I'd argue that prayers for the dead are Scriptural, and helpful.

And NotForgotten is correct, the Gospel was preached to the dead. Catholics and Orthodox recognize this as something called "the harrowing of Hell".
Then there is this quirky passage by the Apostle Paul where he's making the argument for the resurrection and throws in a tidbit about people being baptized on behalf of the dead.
It's just a passing line acknowledging the practice with no endorsement nor reproof.
I've often wondered about it.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain..

..And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied..

..Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Beliefs and practices like purgatory and indulgences are what happens when men pervert God's word (or abandon it outright) in an attempt to control other men.
Yes, indeed, for centuries they have practiced a very successful deception - the most profitable on earth, while totally lost to God's Kingdom.
 
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Beaker

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That's called (most all the time) demonic visions. (caused by demons)

Sorry, no.
Scripture tells how to be saved,
Jesus tells how to be saved,
YHWH tells how to be saved,
and a few listen and are saved because they do what He Says BEFORE they die -
after they die, it is final, it is done, it is too late.

EXACTLY, Click on the link Rich_man_and_Lazarus
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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How do we know what is Scripture and what is not?
I never once, not ever, not on this forum, or anywhere else,
ever suggested nor stated that you can tell what Scripture is and what it is not.

That is reserved for those born again and set apart by YHWH HIMSELF and to whom He Himself reveals His Word to as it is written:
" Then opened HE their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,"

As He Pleases, so He Does.
 
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dqhall

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It is common practice for the dead in purgatory to obtain indulgence from God through the Catholic Church for remission of their sins (CCC X. Indulgences). This practice seems to come from 2 Maccabees 12:38-46.

These indulgences are limited to those who die in the communion of saints (the faithful).

I take this practice one step further. I believe that we can offer up our own good works for the atonement of the dead in hell. Nowhere in Maccabees does it say that atonement is limited to the dead in “purgatory.”

God’s love is greater than the Catholic Church teaches.

Matthew 5:44. But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

God’s love is true and pure and is not limited to the faithful.

Here are my views on atonement and commentary on “shadow people” -

Some of the dead today are commonly referred to as “shadow people”. I have seen thousands of these spirits. And, I have received divine guidance in regards to them.

I urge those who have the dead in their lives or loved ones in hell to please listen.

There are various shades of darkness and white or light in the spirit world. In which two kingdoms exist...heaven and hell. The darker spirits are malevolent and are in hell. Here, you can find "shadow people" in scripture,

Psalm 23:4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.

Shadow people are generally malevolent spirits of the dead. They are the lost human souls of the netherworld.

It is the human condition that we are evil and wicked without God in the afterlife. The soul is in ruins. And in need of salvation (divine restoration).

1 Peter 4:6. For this reason the gospel was preached also to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in spirit.

Only Christ holds the keys to the gates of hell. Why would Christ hold the keys to a door that cannot be opened?

And it is by the power of God that salvation is made for the dead.

1 Corinthians 1:18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Comment: Why is “purgatory” necessary, if salvation is by the power of God? Christ can save the dead in a blink of the eye. Although, Catholic myself, I cast my doubts on purgatory.

There is only one way to help these spirits. And that is by making atonement for their sins. In this way, their souls are restored by the divine power of Christ and they can be good spirits with their friends and family in heaven.

2 Maccabees 12:46. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Freedom for the dead shackled in the dark kingdom can only come through making atonement to Christ for their sins. Atonement is made by offering up good works to the one and only risen King.

One must be in good standing with God and have the door closed to these spirits before atonement will be accepted. This should be done as soon as possible.

Leviticus 19:31. Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them; I am the Lord your God.

Mediums and familiar spirits involve consulting the spirits of the dead. All contact with these or other spirits was strictly forbidden in Israel. It demonstrated lack of faith in and rebellion against God.

Atonement can also be made for our friends and loved ones in hell.

In conclusion, this, my friends, is the most loving thing you can do for these poor, lost souls. And, may God bless you for such an undertaking.
In an outer court of the Temple built by Herod in Jerusalem, some were selling cattle, sheep and doves for sacrifices and offerings (John 2:14). The priests had a law if a sinner presented an animal for sacrifice at YHWH's altar, his/her sin would be atoned for. The sin debt would be paid. Jesus tipped over the tables of those selling sacrificial offerings. God desired mercy and not the sacrifice of animals (Hosea 6:6)

If one desires forgiveness, one should stop sinning. If God does not choose a dead relative for a place in heaven, no amount of gold will buy a place for the person.

Judas Iscariot used to carry the disciples' money bag. He was sent to buy things the group needed or to make gifts to the poor. Judas stole from it. He did not receive mercy. No bribe could get him reinstated after what he did.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Then there is this quirky passage by the Apostle Paul where he's making the argument for the resurrection and throws in a tidbit about people being baptized on behalf of the dead.
It's just a passing line acknowledging the practice with no endorsement nor reproof.
I've often wondered about it.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain..

..And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied..

..Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

That's a good question. I don't see it as a reference to the Early Church practicing this, but a reference to something that others apart from the Church were doing, simply to make a point. But imho it does make a point that acts done to help or benefit the dead was not an unknown concept in the Apostolic years.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I don't see it as a reference to the Early Church practicing this, but a reference to something that others apart from the Church were doing, simply to make a point. But imho it does make a point that acts done to help or benefit the dead was not an unknown concept in the Apostolic years.
"Right", sort of (qualified or confirmed):
the ekklesia did not promote the errors...
the wolves or outsiders or antimessiahs in the midst of the assemblies promoted the errors, which grew and grew after the Apostles were gone...

"others apart from the Church"
(others outside of Christ)

brought such things "into" the organized religious practices, even though opposed to Scripture and not authorized by YHWH(GOD), nor even approved by YHWH (by the group that forbids saying or writing or reading His Name Today! ) .....
 
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paul becke

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I ask you, why would Jesus hold the keys to hell, if the door could not be opened?
What other reason than it keep it shut. It's symbolic, like so much apocalyptic language.

You accuse others of underestimating God's love. You deny that he loves us any more than the animals (though he tells us we are worth more than a hundred sparrows (though He is the last one to be impressed by physical size or power , and even adopts his flock, his 'children of light' into his own divine life), but, rather (according to you), making us no more responsible for our own actions and their affects on others than the dumb animals, who have no free will. Sure they are mostly beautiful and lovable creatures, and are sometimes used in scripture as teaching aids. But he didn't say : 'Know ye not that the dumb animals are gods, did he ?'

When Jesus learnt of Judas' death under a curse, why was he still bitter towards him, if he knew he'd given him a Get out of Jail Free card ? Why did Jesus speak of the flames and the worms in hell being undying ? Do you think he was just being tricky - omitting to say, but I won't let them torment the 'children of darkness' for ever ?
 
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Light of the East

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Sorry, due to the TOS I'm not allowed to properly and fully answer that question (as far as I know).

The dead are walking all over the earth, billions of them.
Do they have any hope ?
Mostly no.
A few get saved.
Most stay on the wide road to destruction, as God Says.


If only a very few get saved, then could you describe Christ's work on the Cross as successful?
 
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paul becke

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People are in hell because they did know know any better.

No. People do not go to hell for being ignorant of the truth, but for choosing to be ignorant it, as, of course, is teh rule in the West today '; whereas, in the past, many peole throughout the world would have been ignorant of Christianity for want of having had the Gospel preached to them.
 
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SkyWriting

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That is a common worldly and sinful practice, yes, opposed to Jesus and contrary to all God's Word, those practices being originating from and immersed instead in pagan rites and rituals and beliefs and practices.

Because God exists outside of "time" there is no wrong time to
pray to His and ask for His Influence. He has heard all past
and future prayers and answered them before the world was
formed. Prayer is our way to get-up-to-speed.

17 Indeed, when he arrived in Rome, he searched diligently until he found me. 18May the Lord grant Onesiphorus His mercy on that day. You know very well how much he ministered to me in Ephesus.

What people may not like is the idea that prayer changes things
thanks to the influence of prayer. Prayer changes the prayee.
 
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SkyWriting

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If only a very few get saved, then could you describe Christ's work on the Cross as successful?

All have been saved except
those who do not accept
the Lord's Good Grace.
 
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FenderTL5

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That's a good question. I don't see it as a reference to the Early Church practicing this, but a reference to something that others apart from the Church were doing, simply to make a point. But imho it does make a point that acts done to help or benefit the dead was not an unknown concept in the Apostolic years.
You'd think that in a letter full of reproof for other shortcomings, Paul would've done so if it were an egregious error.
I agree with you, since he's using it to support his argument for the resurrection I tend to think he was not opposed to the practice. Although there does not seem to be any doctrine around it.. likely a local custom.
 
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