LDS BOOK OF MORMON FALSE HISTORY 2

Peter1000

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Read post #66 again.
You make a good point. The OT writers lost the relationship between Elohim and Yahweh/Jehovah. It is the relationship between Jesus/Yahweh/Jehovah, as the Son of his Father Elohim/God the Father. They were not the same Person.

The OT does not stress the Sonship nearly enough.
 
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withwonderingawe

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...he was the burning bush, He was on the Mt. with Moses----but they did not know that!! Jesus and God were not separable before the conception. Jesus became human, God did not!

Jesus/Yahweh was not a burning bush, it says "God called unto him out of the midst of the bush" for some reason He decided to stand within a bush or on top of but he was not the bush.

I believe They were separate even in the Old Testament. Look at Malachi 1

"...the Lord of hosts says "And now, I pray you, beseech God/El that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the Lord of hosts."

Yahweh, the Lord of Host beseeches El or acts as mediator between mankind and the Father. You can see it in Isa 43 when after declaring there is no other god besides him he says

' I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified."

Well who is he pleading to if there is no other God. He was saying there is no other mediator, the idols are nothing they can not save.

I went to a class at BYU where they explained what started happening around 600 bc with the re-wright of the Torah and they began focusing on the jot and tittle of law. It's called the Deuteronomical revision of the Bible. This professor with a Doctorate in ancient studies, Bible study and spoke Hebrew and half a dozen other langues made the claim that the Deuteronmist began removing any reference to there being a Son and of his atoning sacrifice which of course implied that God would die. It happened slowly over time until the Jews who ruled the Sanhedrin no longer understood the Father Son concept at all. This was the main argument Jesus was having with them when he said you don't know the Father.

However there was another sect of Jews among the common people who were still worshiping the Father and Son. John was part of that sect along with the other Apostles which were found around John the Baptist.

"John bare witness of him, .....For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
No man hath seen God/El at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

In the Old Testament lots of different prophets see God yet John declares no man has, that does not make sense. What he's saying is no one has seen God the Father but Yahweh who they did see acts as his agent, he declares him.

Nathanael know who Jesus is before Jesus even has time to teach him, he had been looking for him.

"Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write"

So when he meets Jesus he says "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God/El; thou art the King of Israel/Yahweh"
 
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Dale

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Maybe because stone gods are false?

In Deut 4 Moses warns the people;
27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

To Moses his God was a living God one which could see because he had eyes, he could hear because he had ears and smell the sweet savory of a sacrifice because he had a nose. What is most important here is Moses worshiped a God that could eat, can an immaterial substance eat?

In Acts 17 Paul asks the question of some idol worshipers
19 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Move that to today and ask; for as much as we are the offspring of God should we think of him as an invisible immaterial substance without body parts or passions? Or should we believe the Bible when it says that man is made in the image and likeness of God?

When Jesus was resurrected and visited his Apostles they were afraid because they thought they were looking at a spirit. Jesus told them not to be afraid for a spirit does not have flesh and bone as he has. He then sat down and enjoyed some fish and honey and probably some bread, figs and wine. He wanted them to know his body was very real. This is the body which is the expressed image of his Father's.

*I don't call God incomprehensible, the Bible teaches that the light shined forth in the darkness and darkness comprehended it not. It's the creeds of the Trinity which do.

".....The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible...." Athanasian Creed 500 ad.

The moment I read that I knew there was something very wrong.

" And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17



You object to what the Athanasian Creed says about God being incomprehensible.


Several passages in the Old Testament describe the Throne of God as being surrounded by darkness. I think that is the same point that the Athanasian creed makes by saying that God is "incomprehensible." Of course, to some extent God has ceased to be incomprehensible because He has revealed Himself.


12 Then spake Solomon, The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
--1 Kings 8:12 KJV

10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
--Psalm 18:10-11 KJV

The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.
2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.
--Psalm 97:1-2 KJV

In the New Testament we find:

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
-- I Corinthians 13:12 KJV


Paul makes that same point that was made in the Psalms, and he makes it despite his many visions. As mortals, in this world, there is much that we do not know and cannot understand. Hence, God's Throne is in "darkness" and "we see through a glass, darkly."
 
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withwonderingawe

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You object to what the Athanasian Creed says about God being incomprehensible.


Several passages in the Old Testament describe the Throne of God as being surrounded by darkness. I think that is the same point that the Athanasian creed makes by saying that God is "incomprehensible." Of course, to some extent God has ceased to be incomprehensible because He has revealed Himself.


12 Then spake Solomon, The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
--1 Kings 8:12 KJV

10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
--Psalm 18:10-11 KJV

The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.
2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.
--Psalm 97:1-2 KJV

In the New Testament we find:

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
-- I Corinthians 13:12 KJV


Paul makes that same point that was made in the Psalms, and he makes it despite his many visions. As mortals, in this world, there is much that we do not know and cannot understand. Hence, God's Throne is in "darkness" and "we see through a glass, darkly."

Paul's point was that he did not understand why God was going to bring about a time where "there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away" that didn't mean he couldn't comprehend who God was.

I understand being finite not being able to comprehend the infinite, seeing past present and future, commanding the elements and have them obey is beyond my understanding. However the word 'incomprehensible' is used in the creeds because they had created this illogical god beyond in sort of comprehending.

The Bible teaches a very simple truth, God in whose image we are created is our Father and he loves us as his children.
 
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Peter1000

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Bottom line---God is spirit---He always was and always will be--There is no other God never has been, never will be.
Bottom line is: Jesus has a body of flesh and bone and spirit. If Jesus is your God, then God is not a spirit. So where does that leave us?
 
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Peter1000

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Jesus/Yahweh was not a burning bush, it says "God called unto him out of the midst of the bush" for some reason He decided to stand within a bush or on top of but he was not the bush.

I believe They were separate even in the Old Testament. Look at Malachi 1

"...the Lord of hosts says "And now, I pray you, beseech God/El that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the Lord of hosts."

Yahweh, the Lord of Host beseeches El or acts as mediator between mankind and the Father. You can see it in Isa 43 when after declaring there is no other god besides him he says

' I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified."

Well who is he pleading to if there is no other God. He was saying there is no other mediator, the idols are nothing they can not save.

I went to a class at BYU where they explained what started happening around 600 bc with the re-wright of the Torah and they began focusing on the jot and tittle of law. It's called the Deuteronomical revision of the Bible. This professor with a Doctorate in ancient studies, Bible study and spoke Hebrew and half a dozen other langues made the claim that the Deuteronmist began removing any reference to there being a Son and of his atoning sacrifice which of course implied that God would die. It happened slowly over time until the Jews who ruled the Sanhedrin no longer understood the Father Son concept at all. This was the main argument Jesus was having with them when he said you don't know the Father.

However there was another sect of Jews among the common people who were still worshiping the Father and Son. John was part of that sect along with the other Apostles which were found around John the Baptist.

"John bare witness of him, .....For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
No man hath seen God/El at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

In the Old Testament lots of different prophets see God yet John declares no man has, that does not make sense. What he's saying is no one has seen God the Father but Yahweh who they did see acts as his agent, he declares him.

Nathanael know who Jesus is before Jesus even has time to teach him, he had been looking for him.

"Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write"

So when he meets Jesus he says "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God/El; thou art the King of Israel/Yahweh"

Great post, again. Do you know if the man from BYU has ever written books or articles about the Deuteronomical revision?
 
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withwonderingawe

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Great post, again. Do you know if the man from BYU has ever written books or articles about the Deuteronomical revision?

I think it was Dr Daniel Peterson but it was some years ago. He was referring to this from wik "The Deuteronomist, or simply D, is one of the sources identified through source criticism as underlying much of the Hebrew Bible (Christian Old Testament). Seen by most scholars more as a school or movement than a single author...."

and then this little explanation from Encyclopædia Britannica
Deuteronomist, (D), one of the supposed sources of a portion of the Hebrew canon known as thePentateuch, in particular, the source of the book of Deuteronomy, as well as of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings. (The other sources are the Yahwist [J], the Elohist [E], and the Priestly code [P].) D uses a distinctive vocabulary and style of exhortation to call for Israel’s conformity with Yahweh’s Covenant laws and to stress Yahweh’s election of Israel as his special people. /www.britannica.com/topic/Deuteronomist

Some of the stuff from BYU these days ya got to join and pay for, I guess they all have copyrights.
 
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mmksparbud

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Bottom line is: Jesus has a body of flesh and bone and spirit. If Jesus is your God, then God is not a spirit. So where does that leave us?

Jesus is the Son of God that has a human body and his divinity remains spirit---God the Father is spirit---that is where were at.
 
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Peter1000

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Jesus is the Son of God that has a human body and his divinity remains spirit---God the Father is spirit---that is where were at.
Close. Jesus has a perfect, powerful resurrected body of flesh and bone and spirit. It is way different than a human body. His entire being is divine.

When you say: that his divinity remains spirit, are you suggesting that his body is still human, but his spirit inside his body is divine?
OR
are you suggesting that his spirit is separate from his body, so his body in human, but his separate spirit is divine?

I know you have some interesting beliefs in the Adventist church about the spirit. And I think they are a little different than even mainline Christianity.
 
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mmksparbud

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Close. Jesus has a perfect, powerful resurrected body of flesh and bone and spirit. It is way different than a human body. His entire being is divine.

When you say: that his divinity remains spirit, are you suggesting that his body is still human, but his spirit inside his body is divine?
OR
are you suggesting that his spirit is separate from his body, so his body in human, but his separate spirit is divine?

I know you have some interesting beliefs in the Adventist church about the spirit. And I think they are a little different than even mainline Christianity.

No--He is fully human, fully divine. That is not different than mainline Christianity. He is totally different from us, yet He is fully human. Thus, we will never belike Him. We will never be divine. God alone and Jesus are divine--and the Holy Spirit.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Thus, we will never be like Him. We will never be divine. God alone and Jesus are divine--and the Holy Spirit

So you are saying that it is impossible for God to carry out his proclamation of 'Let us make man in our image and after our likeness"

" Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,..." 2Peter 1
 
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mmksparbud

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So you are saying that it is impossible for God to carry out his proclamation of 'Let us make man in our image and after our likeness"

" Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,..." 2Peter 1


No----we are made in His image--As I've said before, that image is not a clone likeness anymore than the fact that a corn cobb doll is made in our image. We are partakers of His divine nature----not His divine substance.
 
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Jane_Doe

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No----we are made in His image--As I've said before, that image is not a clone likeness anymore than the fact that a corn cobb doll is made in our image. We are partakers of His divine nature----not His divine substance.
Bible doesn't say anything about God's substance.
 
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Jane_Doe

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No it doesn't.
So your post here--
No----we are made in His image--As I've said before, that image is not a clone likeness anymore than the fact that a corn cobb doll is made in our image. We are partakers of His divine nature----not His divine substance.
Is admittedly not supported by the Bible.
 
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