The 4th Commandment had to go, and it did.

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bugkiller

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I disagree, I don't think the Messiah is the one who distroyed the temple in this prophecy. (I am using NKJV btw to avoid any confusion.) Daniel 9:25 Messiah the Prince is capitalized. In 26 the prince to come, the one who distroyed the temple, is not capitalized. We also know from history Rome distroyed the temple in 70 ad and the Nazarines fled to the mountains just as Yeshua prophecied. Matthew 24:16, Mark 13:14, Luke 21:21

Re reading your post I think we are saying the same thing :)
I am not sure if you are posting this regarding the 7000 year theroy
Was the destruction of the Temple prophesied about? Even Jesus (God) did this. God must have had control over its destruction.

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bugkiller

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Wow why the distain towards Messianics? I choose to follow that doctrine because after reading the Bible several times and prayer and study I understood that God's instuctions are good, they are for our own good, that it will go well with us. Why would David meditate on them if they are bad, when did anyone say they were over in the Bible? Still can't find those chapters and verses. I heard a ton of strange docrines from the grace camp like " Jesus kept the commandments perfectly so now we do not have to" or "fullfilled means done away with" even after Jesus said Think not I have come to distroy the law and the prophets.
The strange things you are reading here are truths taught in the Bible your church avoids. Your bible reading seems to be selected passages of someone or your church. For insistence you are ignoring Jer 31:31-33 and Lk 22:20. Both are about the same new covenant. There are plenty more you ignore or are not aware of.

Listed provided you with what happened at a church he attended. They were in fact praying (proselytizing) on a group of people for a purpose - drawing people from one group to another. Paul warns us about these type of people in

4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: Gal 2

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. I Tim 1

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Tim 4

I do think your goals of a sinless life for yourself and others is admirable. The righteousness required of God can not be achieved through the law. It can only be ascribed by God's declaration through faith - Rom 4. No I do not promote the idea a Christian is free to sin.

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bugkiller

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Hello John.

You stated the following idea.

Then you quoted the following verses to support this idea.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

Romans 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

If you had read those two verses above more carefully you would have noticed.
The gentiles were grafted in among the other branches, grafted into the root.
And the natural branches are grafted into their own olive tree.
Exactly!! :amen::amen::amen:

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bugkiller

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I'm not sure what the problem is. Except your last sentence have the "natural branches being grafted into their own olive tree." Just note, that the only natural branches that have to be "grafted" in, are those who first did not believe and were CUT OFF, but didn't stay in unbelief and then were grafted back in.

“Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
IOW only believers are graft into the Root. Read it closely.

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bugkiller

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Hello Brother KluteDavid
Sir, I fail to see how you would come to that conclusion from the plain meaning of the sentences provided. Just to be clear this is what I am claiming:

  • We have become partakers of the Abrahamic blessing; which were clearly Jewish. Our standing in Christ is based on the promises initially given to Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob and yes, we have been grafted into this promise in place of the natural branches. There is much exegetical evidence as well as commentary which agrees.
Let's look at the entire passage so there is no remaining confusion.
  • Audience Context: Paul is speaking about Israel to Gentile Believers so necessarily he would have been juxtaposing Israeli believers, Israel itself, Gentile believers and those nations or ethne' yet to be grafted into the ends of the earth blessing, the promise of Salvation (which occurs at the fulfillment of time of the Gentiles and also the fulfillment of Israel's return). There is clearly an admonition here that Gentile believers not be too cocky about what has 'presently' happened among the Jews and Gentiles.
Romans 11
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

  • The first fruits of the Church were all Jewish, including the apostles, disciples, and the 5000 jews they added to their number at Pentecost.
  • The root of course is Jesus, who self described Himself as the true Vine and His disciples as the branches.
    • John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
  • The lump is the bulk product of the first-fruits the thing being kneaded usually mixed with a liquid. The Greek word is φύραμα phýrama, whicj means swelling the bulk.
    • Isaiah 49:6 Indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’ 
    • Then of course there is my handle from Jesus priestly prayer at the Last Supper where He prays for Himself, His Disciples, and then all who will believe through His all Jewish Apostles.
    • Jhn 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, (His Apostles) but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
    • Now the word of these first-fruits or Apostles, rooted in Christ, was propogated in their preaching as well as captured in the New Testament. The product of that effort is us the lump; both are grounded in the root of Christ.
  • So we see we have but one Vine, although Paul will use the metaphor of the Olive Tree - which was the symbol for Israel. The branches represent disciples. However, we shall see the symbolism holds.
17-18 (never end on a comma) And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
  • Now branches broken off implies branches that were originally there. How were they there one may ask? They were there according to the promise given to Abraham, who was blessed to be a blessing and this was passed on to his progeny Jacob (Israel). Note Jesus originally came for the children of Israel and not the Gentiles, which His conversation with the Syro-Phoenician woman bears out. He also tells the Samaritan woman that salvation is of the Jews.
  • Mark 7:27 But Jesus said to her, “Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
  • John 4:22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
  • This is a clear reference of the Gentile Church being grafted into the same tree, since they say branches were "broken off" that I might be grafted in. There is no second tree as you suppose. There is one tree whose branches did not remain in Christ and branches from non-Israel that were grafted in their place.
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
  • Just an affirmation that Paul agrees with their assessment that they hve been grafted in to the tree where the other branches were broken off. He then adds that they stand in this entitlement by faith in Christ. That should make them fear and not be prideful about it.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
  • If God eliminated the natural branches, those unbelieving who rejected Jesus as their Messiah, then what of Gentile Churches that may some day be rejected for the same reason.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
  • The reason Gentile believers should fear is that if they do not remain in Christ they too will be cut off as Jesus said in John 15:5
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
  • "And if Israel should come to belief" here Paul doubles down on the postulate that God is able to restore them to the Olive tree (the original tree of blessing given to Israel) by re-grafting them into this tree of promised blessing.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
  • Here Paul states Gentiles were cut out of a wild (un cultivated) olive tree but the Gentile believers were grafted into the cultivated Olive tree (Israel). Uncultivated means not cultivated by God for the blessing. This become crystal clear when he categorically states "how much more can the "natural branches", the Jews, be grafted back into their own olive tree that God has cultivated since Abraham. There are two trees, wild on it own, and natural - cultivated by God but there is only one tree that inherits the blessing to be a blessing that was given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel).
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
  • Here Paul is speaking to prophesy that once the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled Israel will come to Christ and the complete Abrahamic blessing will have been completed.
  • The fullness of the time of the Gentiles, of course, is the great commission which must go to all ethne'
  • Mat 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
  • Once that happens Israel, the natural branches, will also be grafted back into the Olive tree.
26-27 never end context on a comma And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:“The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”
  • Again this is only one tree, the natural Olive tree, whose root is Christ and whose disciples are the branches both natural and grafted in wild branches; i.e Jewish and Gentiles in Christ.
  • Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
  • Col 3:11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.
In Christ, John 17:20
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Gal 4

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bugkiller

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John 10 continues from John 9 and in John 9:40 we see there that Jesus was speaking to Pharisees with His disciples present so it follows that in John 10:16 Jesus is speaking to a completely Jewish audience in Jerusalem, namely the apostles and Israelites listening to His parable. Every Bible commentator I know states the same


How so when in the plain reading Jesus clearly says one fold - one shepherd? Yes, the Gentiles were not of this fold (Israel) but clearly the context is Jesus is integrating them into the fold not creating two folds. This only makes my point that the Gentiles have been grafted into the tree or the fold - Pick your own metaphor as it means the same thing.

Yes, it does make them part of the promise to Abraham but I already put that in another post - please read
In Christ, John 17:20
Sorry but Jesus is not bringing foreigners to become Israeli. It is clear to me Israel is Gods' wife and the Church is the Christ's bride. These are two entirely different groups of people. Breaking down the middle wall of partition did not allow or make gentiles (foreigners) Jews. Eph 2:14

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bugkiller

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Yes, and if anyone breaks one of the commandments willfully, (willingly and in rebellion, not listening to YHWH'S Word nor to Jesus),
they break all of them.

This is often seen anywhere anyone breaks one commandment, they can be (or may be) readily seen breaking all of them , sometimes behind closed doors, and often even right out in the open ! (they don't even try to hide it!!!)
The commandment in question has been examined here many times. Any one in first world countries never keeps the 4th. They require other to work so they may enjoy their luxuries.

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1stcenturylady

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IOW only believers are graft into the Root. Read it closely.

bugkiller

I have. Many Jews, like the Pharisees, were cut off. But many of those same Pharisees later believed and were grafted back in.
 
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1John2:4

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No sin is not merely lawlessness. Your idea comes from half a sentence.

I think your last question is what listed asked you. Why are avoiding answering it?

bugkiller
Seriously John 13 voids God's commandments? That does not even make sense. You are reading something into the passage that is not there. He made new commandment for His deciples to love one another that does not void God's commandments. I can't even begin to imagine how you draw that conclusion from that passage.
 
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Bob S

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We are called to do and teach the law and prophets in order to be great in the Kingdom says our Savior :) what is all the fuss about not keeping it?
Jesus was under the law preaching to those under the law. He had not yet died for our sins and ushered in the new covenant. It is your life do want you want to do, but please do not tell anyone else that it is necessary to observe ritual days meant only for Israel and ended at Calvary.

How did the Shabbat hurt anyone? Personally I love it, last Saturday I took 2 naps! I don't see it as a burdon, don't have to work, don't have to shop I can just kick back relax and spend time with God and my family. Yeah, I may miss that Macy's one day sale but it is worth the sacrifice to obey the Creator. It's a celebration and one day it will be the ultimate wedding celebration.
Shabbat Shalom
I can do that any day of the week and since there is no rule I have a choice as to when I have special time with my Savior. If I need or want to something on Saturday I am free to do it and I know I am not dishonoring my Savior. You have already admitted trying to keep ritual old covenant days have nothing to do with salvation It appears all you are doing is bucking the tide and making yourselves exclusive. Again, if that is want you prefer go for it. I really believe going back to the old law is dishonoring Jesus who died for us and set Israel free from the law.
 
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Bob S

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Yes, and if anyone breaks one of the commandments willfully, (willingly and in rebellion, not listening to YHWH'S Word nor to Jesus),
they break all of them.

This is often seen anywhere anyone breaks one commandment, they can be (or may be) readily seen breaking all of them , sometimes behind closed doors, and often even right out in the open ! (they don't even try to hide it!!!)
The 4th commandment was a ritual command for Israel only as were the feast days that some seem to believe we should honor. Jesus ended those ritual commands at the Cross. Since they are not commands anymore we certainly are not breaking them. And another thing, since Torah, old covenant was not for salvation purpose and only given for Israel to live by in Canaan it would not have been sin for anyone else nor is it sin for us today.
 
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John 1720

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21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Gal 4

bugkiller
Good morning BK,
Yep, verse 28
"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Thanks for making my point sir, since Paul was speaking to Gentile believers, namely the Galatians.

In Christ, John 17:20
 
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JLB777

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I'm sorry but Jesus says: 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
I see 2 different folds here Jesus doesn't say: I will bring other sheep ito this fold.

Romans 11 doesn't indicate as some say the Christian becomes part of Israel.

Ephesians 2 doesn't say Christians become part of the commonwealth of Israel.

I do understand you say the Christian becomes and is counted as seeds of Abraham. I agree with this. That said it doesn't follow that Christians are children of Israel. Abraham had many unnamed children.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:11-22


We who are in Christ, have been grafted into the Covenant of Promise, that is to say, the Abrahamic Covenant, which has been renewed, and is now called the New Covenant.


Abraham was in Covenant with Jesus Christ our Lord, who is YHWH, the God of Israel, who became flesh, and performed His part of the blood letting of that covenant with Abraham, whose part of the blood letting was circumcision.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1



WE have the same calling to walk with the Lord, they way Abraham was called to walk with the Lord.

  • walk before Me and be blameless.
Walk in in My Presence.
Walk with Me.
Walk in My Spirit.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


Abraham is a Gentile, and is unique, as He foreshadows us, who are "in Christ", that is to say, "in Covenant with Christ", being both Gentile and Jew; a type of the One New man.



JLB
 
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John 1720

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Sorry but Jesus is not bringing foreigners to become Israeli. It is clear to me Israel is Gods' wife and the Church is the Christ's bride. These are two entirely different groups of people. Breaking down the middle wall of partition did not allow or make gentiles (foreigners) Jews. Eph 2:14

bugkiller
Hello BK,
I think you greatly misunderstand sir. You seem to be hung up on Jewish nationalism but that is not what the Scriptures are talking about. When Jesus says salvation is of the Jews He is speaking to the spiritual sons and daughters of Abraham, who are also children of the promise, through Himself - who fulfilled the promise by the cross and rose for us all. We are one in Christ, Gentile and Jew and we are all children of the promise = sons and daughters of Abraham's spiritual progeny. This is the thread that runs through the whole Bible and what every missionary understands. L
ike Jesus, the Abrahamic promise fulfiller, once said to a tax collector
  • Luk 19:9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham.
So it doesn't mean you have to wear a yamaka and eat kavala fish but hey, why not if it gives you opportunity to tell Jesus stories that in unison with the Holy Spirit wins a Jewish brother to Christ?

Isa 49:6 Indeed He "GOD" says,
‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”

There is only one tree brother!
 
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1John2:4

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Was the destruction of the Temple prophesied about? Even Jesus (God) did this. God must have had control over its destruction.

bugkiller
Jesus nor His deciples distroyed the temple Rome did, they fled to the mountains just as He prophecied why are you arguing that fact?
 
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1John2:4

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Jesus was under the law preaching to those under the law. He had not yet died for our sins and ushered in the new covenant. It is your life do want you want to do, but please do not tell anyone else that it is necessary to observe ritual days meant only for Israel and ended at Calvary.


I can do that any day of the week and since there is no rule I have a choice as to when I have special time with my Savior. If I need or want to something on Saturday I am free to do it and I know I am not dishonoring my Savior. You have already admitted trying to keep ritual old covenant days have nothing to do with salvation It appears all you are doing is bucking the tide and making yourselves exclusive. Again, if that is want you prefer go for it. I really believe going back to the old law is dishonoring Jesus who died for us and set Israel free from the law.
Bob
My savior said to do and teach the law and prophets to be great in the Kingdom so I will continue to share with others the law and the prophets. He said that if you teach against them you will be least in the Kingdom. It is obvious by this statement that He did not want His followers to use Him as an excuse to teach against the law and prophets. He said until heaven and Earth pass away- it's still here. He did not say until I pass away then do what is right in your own eyes and trample My Father's commandments. Please show me where Jesus said you will no longer need to keep or teach the law and prophets, or only keep ones that you feel are moral?

Willfull sin after one knows the Truth is dishonoring Jesus that is in Hebrews 10. I grow tired of hearing that if you follow God's instuctions you are trampling of the blood of Jesus.

He died for our SIN, our lawlessness, we all deserved the curse brought on by not following God's instuctions. We are saved from our sin from that curse which is because of our sin, He paid the price and took the penalty which is death so we could live. He did not save us from God's instuctions so we could now walk in lawlessness. We are to walk in newness of life.

God did not separate His law into any kind of categories moral cerimonial and civil. That is a doctrine of man and is just not supported by the Bible.

I am sorry you had a bad experience with your previous church and now you view His Sabbath as a burdon. That makes me really sad for you.

We all have been hurt by churches, they are full of people some very amazing people and some hurt and injured people. We must move on not just make it our purpose to smash thier doctrine down into the ground. I was burned badly by a Baptist Church yet I am not going to camp out on the Baptist forum and tell them how unbiblical thier doctrine is even though I do believe they have some rather unbiblical doctrine. All denominations have some kind of darkness in the past. I do care for you and others on this thread, and it breaks my heart to see you and others have such distain for one of God's commandments expecially one that is so special.

Shabbat Shalom
 
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1John2:4

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The strange things you are reading here are truths taught in the Bible your church avoids. Your bible reading seems to be selected passages of someone or your church. For insistence you are ignoring Jer 31:31-33 and Lk 22:20. Both are about the same new covenant. There are plenty more you ignore or are not aware of.

Listed provided you with what happened at a church he attended. They were in fact praying (proselytizing) on a group of people for a purpose - drawing people from one group to another. Paul warns us about these type of people in

4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: Gal 2

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. I Tim 1

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Tim 4

I do think your goals of a sinless life for yourself and others is admirable. The righteousness required of God can not be achieved through the law. It can only be ascribed by God's declaration through faith - Rom 4. No I do not promote the idea a Christian is free to sin.

bugkiller
No they are strange and not Biblical anyone can proof text out of the Bible just as you have done to prove some sort of theology.
What in the new Covenant goes on our hearts HIS LAWS. So who exactly is ignoring the new Covenant?

Who came in to turn away the flock? Lawless men

What are we supposed to watch out for in Timothy? Lawless men

What did Peter say to watch out for when reading Paul's writings? lawless men

Why don't you give all of us YOUR Definition of lawlessness because it seems that you do not agree with the Biblical Definition. Enlighten us please
 
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1stcenturylady

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11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:11-22


We who are in Christ, have been grafted into the Covenant of Promise, that is to say, the Abrahamic Covenant, which has been renewed, and is now called the New Covenant.


Abraham was in Covenant with Jesus Christ our Lord, who is YHWH, the God of Israel, who became flesh, and performed His part of the blood letting of that covenant with Abraham, whose part of the blood letting was circumcision.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1



WE have the same calling to walk with the Lord, they way Abraham was called to walk with the Lord.

  • walk before Me and be blameless.
Walk in in My Presence.
Walk with Me.
Walk in My Spirit.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


Abraham is a Gentile, and is unique, as He foreshadows us, who are "in Christ", that is to say, "in Covenant with Christ", being both Gentile and Jew; a type of the One New man.



JLB

Well said!
 
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Bob S

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My savior said to do and teach the law and prophets to be great in the Kingdom so I will continue to share with others the law and the prophets. He said that if you teach against them you will be least in the Kingdom. It is obvious by this statement that He did not want His followers to use Him as an excuse to teach against the law and prophets. He said until heaven and Earth pass away- it's still here. He did not say until I pass away then do what is right in your own eyes and trample My Father's commandments. Please show me where Jesus said you will no longer need to keep or teach the law and prophets, or only keep ones that you feel are moral?
Hi 1Jn, No, Jesus was not telling "us" to teach the law, he was telling fellow Israelites to teach the law. That was all they had. Jesus had not paid the price for Israel's and our failure. Paul wrote a lot about the law and he made it clear the it was temporary. It ended at the Cross.

Willfull sin after one knows the Truth is dishonoring Jesus that is in Hebrews 10. I grow tired of hearing that if you follow God's instuctions you are trampling of the blood of Jesus.
Sin is not about ritual laws given only to Israel. It is not sin for Christians for not observing days that were given to only one nation, Israel. In other words none of us are committing wilful sin when there is no law for us to keep. Sabbath and feast laws are not part of the new covenant law system.


He died for our SIN, our lawlessness, we all deserved the curse brought on by not following God's instuctions. We are saved from our sin from that curse which is because of our sin, He paid the price and took the penalty which is death so we could live. He did not save us from God's instuctions so we could now walk in lawlessness. We are to walk in newness of life.
Where there is no law there is no sin. You religious group has taught you that keep Sabbath is a law for Christians. Jesus fulfilled the law nullifying it for Israel and of course it was never a law for gentiles.

God did not separate His law into any kind of categories moral cerimonial and civil. That is a doctrine of man and is just not supported by the Bible.
that does not mean that there is no difference in laws. Many of the laws given in Torah dealt with how Israel was to treat their fellow man, morality. Some were like the Sabbath, ritual. God didn't distinguish, but that doesn't mean we can't.

I am sorry you had a bad experience with your previous church and now you view His Sabbath as a burdon. That makes me really sad for you.
I was in my SDA church that I helped to build last week. Please do not feel sorry for me. I am free in Christ, free indeed. You are the ones carrying the burdens. I worship God anytime, you are obligated, without any proof, to worship Him on a certain day, too bad.

We all have been hurt by churches, they are full of people some very amazing people and some hurt and injured people. We must move on not just make it our purpose to smash thier doctrine down into the ground.
You have made an assumption that is not in any way true. I love me SDA brothers and sisters, but some of the doctrines plus the prophet are false. Jesus was quick to "smash" the law thumpers of His time, so why is it not okay for us to do it now?

I was burned badly by a Baptist Church yet I am not going to camp out on the Baptist forum and tell them how unbiblical thier doctrine is even though I do believe they have some rather unbiblical doctrine.
That is your personal choice. You have no right telling me I should not tell others what they are doing is not Biblical. I am sure you are not the last word and your decisions do not have to be mine.

All denominations have some kind of darkness in the past. I do care for you and others on this thread, and it breaks my heart to see you and others have such distain for one of God's commandments expecially one that is so special.
Well thanks, but you are talking to the choir. It breaks my heart to see you and others with your heads in the sand. For instance, I have never said or even indicated I have disdain for the commandments. I have upheld with all my heart the most special command that was ever given. That command goes like this: Jn13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. That along with our love for God sums up every other command that deals with morality, however it surely does not deal with commands that were given only to Israel for ritual purposes.

I pray this helps you to see the real light. May God bless you with the simple plan of salvation found in all of scripture and especially in the New Testament.
 
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