Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

[Waterwerx]

Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

Could you please post some examples.


P.S.

During the many years that I have been studying this, here are a couple pretribber "details" that were proven FALSE...


Between 1981 and 1986, when the European Union (EU) had exactly 10 member states, the pretribbers were saying... The EU has 10 member states ("ten horns"), the president/king of the next country to join will be the "little horn". He will take over 3 of the other member states leaving 8 member states. Etc etc.

But what actually happened was... 2 nations joined at the same time, so the EU went from having 10 members to 12 members without ever having just 11 members. And then more joined, so there are currently 28 member states. So that pretribber "detail" was a major FAIL.


Since that prediction failed, Pretribbers bailed on the EU and switched to focus on the Western European Union (WEU).


Between 1995 and 2011, when the WEU had exactly 10 member states, the Pretribbers were saying... The WEU has 10 member states ("ten horns"), the president/king of the next country to join will be the "little horn". He will take over 3 of the other member states leaving 8 member states. Etc etc.

But what actually happened was... No more nations joined, and in 2011 the WEU was officially declared defunct (ceased to exist). Another pretribber "detail" that was a major FAIL.


So Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

Some were following the idea that the EU fit the picture. Greece became #10 in 1981, and since Spain became #11 in 1986(followed by Portugal, if I remember correctly), the antichrist would rise out of Spain. Someone wrote a whole book on it which pointed to Juan Carlos supposedly being the future antichrist.

The simple fact of the matter is that nobody really knows for certain beyond that its going to be headed up by a "western" power, at least from my understanding when putting all of the prophecies together. I think there's still a number of things that need to happen first before we see more of the pieces fall into place.

 

[Yahchristian]

Not less reasons. The reasons always remain. Rather, just more excuses.

And I didn't say 'waiting', I said 'looking'. Different.

Ok...


I am looking for the Lord's return as well. (see chart below)

But when we fabricate "details", and they prove to be false, many non-believers will have more excuses to doubt us when we tell them the truth of the gospel.

 

[Widlast]

The problem is (and always has been) reading comprehension. People need to look at the WHOLE prophecy and not jump the gun when they "think" they have it solved.
The kingdom of the antichrist has to encompass the ENTIRE world, not part, not bits and pieces.
There is only one organization that makes claims to the entirety of the Earth, the UN.
Funny enough, the UN has divided the world into 10 administrative districts, you can find maps of such online. Though, at this time, the UN has no "REAL" authority, that could change very rapidly.
And what would serve the antichrist better than a bunch of elitist, unelected bureaucrats?

 

[Widlast]

Ok...


I am looking for the Lord's return as well. (see chart below)

But when we fabricate "details", and they prove to be false, many non-believers will have more excuses to doubt us when we tell them the truth of the gospel.

Every single part of that chart is fabricated details.

 

[jgr]

Every single part of that chart is fabricated details.

Not according to the Reformers.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

Could you please post some examples.


P.S.

During the many years that I have been studying this, here are a couple pretribber "details" that were proven FALSE...


Between 1981 and 1986, when the European Union (EU) had exactly 10 member states, the pretribbers were saying... The EU has 10 member states ("ten horns"), the president/king of the next country to join will be the "little horn". He will take over 3 of the other member states leaving 8 member states. Etc etc.

But what actually happened was... 2 nations joined at the same time, so the EU went from having 10 members to 12 members without ever having just 11 members. And then more joined, so there are currently 28 member states. So that pretribber "detail" was a major FAIL.


Since that prediction failed, Pretribbers bailed on the EU and switched to focus on the Western European Union (WEU).


Between 1995 and 2011, when the WEU had exactly 10 member states, the Pretribbers were saying... The WEU has 10 member states ("ten horns"), the president/king of the next country to join will be the "little horn". He will take over 3 of the other member states leaving 8 member states. Etc etc.

But what actually happened was... No more nations joined, and in 2011 the WEU was officially declared defunct (ceased to exist). Another pretribber "detail" that was a major FAIL.


So Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

hi I like how you have been paying attention to the discussion on the end times and I want to tell you a few fun facts that may separate the rumor from the prophecy. The prophecy is clear the world will have 10 leaders in the end and with Israel being a nation again and then regaining Jerusalem in 1967 many started to think we were real close. The EU was formed and many started to speculate that the EU would grow strong and the US would decline and 10 nations in EU would be left and they would take over. The rumor is the EU is the 10 nations. The prophecy says 10 kings will arise. The guys who taught this are good men of God who saw what they thought was a puzzle piece that fit the prophecy and by and large it was accepted. There were many small things that really convinced people of this such as the EU having numbered all the member of government and leaving seat number 666 vacant and putting into the continuation of government under an emergency a clause that someone would rise and take 666 in an emergency and be over all Europe. Also the credit card processing machine was in Geneva and was a giant computer called the beast. So what we had here is people believing the scripture reading incorrectly the current events and making wrong assumptions about how it will play out.
in reality Eu and China the US and all nations are on the verge of an epic collapse. The UN has designated the world into 10 regions and like how they are trying to merge the US Canada and Mexico into one region this is being done all over the earth to create 10 UN zones that cover the whole earth. The prophecy in Daniel 9 says the people of a prince that shall come will destroy the city Jerusalem and the sanctuary and in the middle of the 70th week he will put an end to the daily sacrifices. It was the romans who destroyed the city and sanctuary so this is where they jump to claim the EU is what the 10 toes is about. In reality this prophecy is only giving the identity of the anti christ as being of the people that would destroy. The dominion of these 10 is over every tribe tongue and kindred which is way beyond the EU scope. The book of Rev has as the opening seals that peace is going to be taken from the earth and that men would kill one another which is worded ethnos vs ethnos and that it would be a days wage for a quart of wheat over the whole earth. Our global economic system is going to fail soon and it will be like Venezuala all over the world/

Pre tribers are right that Israel will be divided by the nations and a one world govenment will form. They are right about moral collapse and apostacy rising just before it hits the fan. They are right that Israel will be hated by all and sing a covenant of peace with the many. The return of the sacrifices is necessary tor teh anitchrist to commit the abomination of desolation. The temple institute has replicated everything necessary for these sacrifices to resume. There are so many points that I have just hit on a few that should give you reason to consider that things are tracking according to scripture and not mans view of how it fits together.

 

[BABerean2]

I am waiting for the Lord's return as well.

But when we fabricate "details", and they prove to be false, many non-believers will have less reasons to believe us when we tell them the truth of the gospel.

I would bet that no refunds have been issued for Blood Moons books...

.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

No one knows the day or the hour. Matthew 24:36

For me the key issue is that we are seeing a lot of things that were prophesied liek Chrisitans being persecuted, killed and beheaded with the sword for their faith, the love of many has grown cold, etc so it is possible we are in the end times. I have never seen anyone provide any scripture that proves these have to be events that cover the whole world (like being beheaded) and the Bible also says we will be going about our normal lives, getting married, etc which we are.

The important thing for me is to live your life as if Jesus is coming tomorrow but be a good steward and plan as if He won't come back in my lifetime.

 

[Douggg]

Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

Could you please post some examples.


P.S.

During the many years that I have been studying this, here are a couple pretribber "details" that were proven FALSE...


Between 1981 and 1986, when the European Union (EU) had exactly 10 member states, the pretribbers were saying... The EU has 10 member states ("ten horns"), the president/king of the next country to join will be the "little horn". He will take over 3 of the other member states leaving 8 member states. Etc etc.

But what actually happened was... 2 nations joined at the same time, so the EU went from having 10 members to 12 members without ever having just 11 members. And then more joined, so there are currently 28 member states. So that pretribber "detail" was a major FAIL.


Since that prediction failed, Pretribbers bailed on the EU and switched to focus on the Western European Union (WEU).


Between 1995 and 2011, when the WEU had exactly 10 member states, the Pretribbers were saying... The WEU has 10 member states ("ten horns"), the president/king of the next country to join will be the "little horn". He will take over 3 of the other member states leaving 8 member states. Etc etc.

But what actually happened was... No more nations joined, and in 2011 the WEU was officially declared defunct (ceased to exist). Another pretribber "detail" that was a major FAIL.


So Pretribbers, which pretrib "details" have proven true?

Someone who is a Democrat may have thought that as well. And there were probably some Republicans though the same. My point is that take at the time - is not pre-trib rapture doctrine. At Fulfillfed Prophecy site, the owner, who has since gone on to be with the Lord, held the pre-wrath view, and he was saying Javier Solana.

So the premise of your question is amiss. It is not a pre-trib versus non pre-trib issue.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Pre-Trib Rapture view is the only view where you have the most to lose if you do not believe in it. Jesus said we will not know the day or the hour of His return.

There are many bread crumbs and clues for the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Enoch who was translated is a type of the church being raptured before the Judgment came with the global flood.


...

 

[BABerean2]

Many of us seem to be unaware of the original teachings that John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War that were later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, which was produced with the help of leading Zionist Samuel Untermeyer.

Darby and Scofield taught that the "Church Age" or the "Age of Grace" would come to an end 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ. They claimed that during this time God would deal with modern Israelites under the Old Covenant system. Forum member "Iamlamad" made reference to this during the last week or so.

They claim it to be the "time of Jacob's trouble" from the Book of Jeremiah, even though Jeremiah was writing during the time Israel was going to and in the captivity in Babylon.

They have added an antichrist not found in Daniel 9, and have added a "gap" of time not mentioned by the angel Gabriel in order to disconnect the 70th week from the other 69. They must ignore the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24, found in Acts 10:38 and Hebrews 10:16-18.
They must also ignore the fact that Christ is the New Covenant Messiah, who spoke of the New Covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.

This whole system of interpretation hinges on ignorance. I am not speaking of ignorance in not knowing a thing. I am speaking of ignoring the scripture which destroys a doctrine. All false systems of interpretation are not revealed by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work. The pretrib rapture doctrine is a prime example.

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13. The Hebrews passage contains the exact text from Jeremiah 31 and it is bracketed at the beginning and the end with verses making it clear that this was fulfilled during the first century. In Hebrews 12:22-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 we find the New Covenant specifically applied to the Church.

In Hebrews 8:13 we find that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".
Therefore, God is not going back to an "obsolete" covenant during a future time as the pretribbers claim.

In Hebrews 13:20 we find that the New Covenant is "everlasting".
Therefore, the "Age of Grace" does not come to an end, as many pretribbers claim.
This is confirmed by those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11, since a person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant of Christ and the passages of scripture that must be ignored to make the pretrib doctrine work, the whole pretrib system of interpretation collapses like a house of cards.


.

 

[Yahchristian]

Every single part of that chart is fabricated details.

The Reformers identified "details" after the events took place.

Pretribbers fabricate "details" about the future.

The question of this thread is...

Which pretrib "details" have proven true?

 

[Yahchristian]

It is not a pre-trib versus non pre-trib issue.

Correct. It is really a Futurist versus Historicist issue. That is why I said in post #14...


In the big picture, all Futurist views are very similar (see chart below), and they all might make the same kinds of predictions. But the Pretribbers were definitely more vocal.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Pre-Trib Rapture is taught in Scripture. Scripture existed long before Mr. Darby.

I mean, stop and think for a moment. When the Pre-Trib Rapture happens, I sure do not want to miss out on that by not believing in it. How silly will you feel if you miss out on it because you do not want to look at those verses that talk about it. With the other views, I have nothing to lose by not believing in them. If the ant Christ appears tomorrow, I will be like, "okay, I guess I was wrong and I need to re-examine the Scriptures again." No true Christian who truly loves Christ will fall away from the faith if the Pre-Trib Rapture does not happen.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, the same exact knowledge of God's Word may not have been known in the same way that believers today have. The Word of God is deeper than any ocean in the treasures of knowledge that it carries. I am constantly learning new things in His Word every day. Daniel 12:4 says knowledge shall increase. So even if the Pre-Trib Rapture was not as clearly understood as Paul taught it back in the day, it does not mean it is untrue.

Anyways, if you want to miss out on the Pre-Trib Rapture, then by all means continue to attack it instead of considering it may be true.


...

 

[Yahchristian]

So even if the Pre-Trib Rapture was not as clearly understood as Paul taught it back in the day does not mean it is untrue.

So Pretribbers think they know better than Paul eh?

I doubt it.


Hey...

I believe 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 tells us there will be a Rapture where the dead saints are resurrected and the living saints are translated. And Revelation says the first resurrection (which happens at the Rapture) occurs in chapter 20, which is after the events of chapters 6-19.

The distinction of the Pretribbers is that they think there are two Raptures, a secret Rapture before the Tribulation and another Rapture after the Tribulation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The distinction of the Pretribbers is that they think there are two Raptures, a secret Rapture before the Tribulation and another Rapture after the Tribulation.

Well, Scripture talks about two different raptures. Here is one breadcrumb or clue in God's Word.

Pre-Trib Rapture:

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.​

2nd Rapture
(Shortly Before Christ's 2nd Coming):

• Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.​

In other words, one is an entrance into a wedding and the other is an entrance after the wedding is over.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There are two Raptures for various different saints and there are two flesh and blood body type resurrections for various different believers.



...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He that is last shall be first and that is first shall be last (Matthew 20:16). While this verse has a primary meaning, I believe it has a secondary meaning, as well. In other words, those who will partake in the first Rapture will be resurrected bodily at the end of the Millennium. Those who will be taken up in the second Rapture will be resurrected bodily at the start of the Millennium.

“Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.” (Revelation 20:4-5).

He that is last shall be first and that is first shall be last.​

Surely this truth is not a coincidence.


...

 

[Yahchristian]

Well, Scripture talks about two different raptures. Here is one breadcrumb or clue in God's Word.

Pre-Trib Rapture:

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.​

2nd Rapture
(Shortly Before Christ's 2nd Coming):

• Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.​

...

Do you think Matthew 25:1 and Matthew 25:14 are referring to the same event?

I do.

Matthew 25:1... Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:14... For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.