LDS J. Smith said Heavenly Father Died

[Peter1000]

edit - found it.

John 5:19, 30 -

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Thank you for your post. I do not understand that mainline Christians cannot understand what Jesus said. It is quite clear.

When you take that scripture to it literal, logical conclusion, that conclusion is so foreign to mainline Christians, they can't believe we could have such a belief.

What do they think it means when Jesus says 'he only does what he seeth the Father do'? So if Jesus came to the conclusion that he would give his life by crusifiction and then raise himself from the dead, it by definition means that God the Father, Jesus's Father and God, did the same thing. JS was exactly right, and Jesus confirms it in John 5:19, like it or not.

You have to understand the name of Elohim before you can understand what Jesus was saying in John 5:19.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Making points about LDS doctrine is much more effective when a quotes come from LDS cannon. This is non-canonical, so there's not much point in dwelling on it.

This is a poor excuse that does not hold water. We are not talking about some ordinary "Mike" in a local church. We are talking about leaders, prophets, apostles, etc. of your church. They are supposed to be mouthpieces of God on earth, right? They should know better than to espouse "personal opinions" that are contrary to God's word, or, in the lds case, other canonized scripture. Leaders and teachers of God's word are held to a higher standard by God.

Titus 2:7-8
"In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us."

James 3:1
"Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."

1 Tim 1:3-7
"As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm."

By easily dismissing what your past leaders have said on certain things as "non-canonical", you are admitting that they are against God's word and should not be considered teachers. If they are not teachers, there is no way they should be prophets, apostles, Quorum members, etc. Your "leaders" have and are leading the flock astray. Why do you follow them?

 

[disciple1]

"I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it."
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, c. 1976, p. 346

Comments?

God never died, the book of Mormon is false.

 

[disciple1]

Thank you for your post. I do not understand that mainline Christians cannot understand what Jesus said. It is quite clear.

When you take that scripture to it literal, logical conclusion, that conclusion is so foreign to mainline Christians, they can't believe we could have such a belief.

What do they think it means when Jesus says 'he only does what he seeth the Father do'? So if Jesus came to the conclusion that he would give his life by crusifiction and then raise himself from the dead, it by definition means that God the Father, Jesus's Father and God, did the same thing. JS was exactly right, and Jesus confirms it in John 5:19, like it or not.

You have to understand the name of Elohim before you can understand what Jesus was saying in John 5:19.

Isaiah chapter 45 verse 5
I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

 

[Yanni depp]

Im not surprised he would say that. Given that he also believed people lived on the moon and sun and were 10 feet tall and dressed like quakers. He was great at fabricating falsehoods.

 

[withwonderingawe]

God never died, the book of Mormon is false.

Actually the quote is not in the Book of Mormon but in the Bible.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Im not surprised he would say that. Given that he also believed people lived on the moon and sun and were 10 feet tall and dressed like quakers. He was great at fabricating falsehoods.

This comes from a quote from a quote and then from........? If you had to use it court they would laugh you out of the room.

On the other hand I like to think he did say it, he liked a good joke.

 

[disciple1]

Actually the quote is not in the Book of Mormon but in the Bible.

Nowhere in the bible does it say God died.

 

[disciple1]

Nowhere in the bible does it say God died.

Actually the quote is not in the Book of Mormon but in the Bible.

I listen to the bible every month to two months, it's not in there, I've been studying the bible 35 years, and God is alive and always has been.

 

[Yanni depp]

This comes from a quote from a quote and then from........? If you had to use it court they would laugh you out of the room.

On the other hand I like to think he did say it, he liked a good joke.

Google it

 

[Yanni depp]

This comes from a quote from a quote and then from........? If you had to use it court they would laugh you out of the room.

On the other hand I like to think he did say it, he liked a good joke.

Here i saved you the trouble...

 

[Yanni depp]

See what joseph smith taught, and decide for yourself if he is a credible prophet for God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rescued One]

Jesus died and rose again. He was fully God and fully man. The Father was not man and never died.

 

[Rescued One]

Perhaps the non-Mormons who were never Mormons are unaware of the Mormon teaching that even their gods are required to obey laws that existed before they became gods.

President Brigham Young taught that “there is no being in all the eternities but what is governed by law” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 1). Elder Bruce R. McConkie stated, similarly, that Christ “governs and is governed by law” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 432.) God has said, for example, that He is bound when His children do what He says (see D&C 82:10). He is bound to fulfill His promises, for He is a being of complete integrity who conforms totally to the laws of righteousness. He is a celestial being and abides by celestial law, for any being “who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory” (D&C 88:22).
Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual Enrichment G The Nature and Purpose of Law

 

[Rescued One]

Im not surprised he would say that. Given that he also believed people lived on the moon and sun and were 10 feet tall and dressed like quakers. He was great at fabricating falsehoods.

Very off-topic. I suggest that you delete this and start your own thread.

 

[Rescued One]

See what joseph smith taught, and decide for yourself if he is a credible prophet for God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Off-topic.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Google it

"The source for this claim is not Joseph Smith himself; the first mention comes in 1881 (35 years after his death) in Oliver B. Huntington's journal, who claimed that he had the information from Philo Dibble. So, we have a late, third-hand account of something Joseph is supposed to have said." Fairmormon

However there is a an actual quote from Joseph's brother Hyrum, but it is something a person wrote in their journal and not double checked as most of the speeches we have. Hyrum started paraphrasing the Bible and enlarged upon it. It was about vastness of creation, something most men had no concept of in 1840s.

"...Showing you by the building of a house as a sample or as figure in my Father’s house are many mantions, or in my Father’s world are meny worlds. I will goe & prepar a place for you, & then if there are meny worlds then there must be meny gods, for every Star that we see is a world and is inhabited the same as this world is peopled. The Sun & Moon is inhabited & the Stars & (Jesus Christ is the light of the Sun, etc.). The Stars are inhabited the same as this Earth. But eny of them are larger then this Earth, & meny that we cannot see without a telliscope are larger then this Earth. They are under the same order as this Earth is undergoing & undergoing the same change. There was & is a first man Adam and also a Saviour in the Meredien of times, the same computing times and all things in order...."

Now he was working off of our concept of the three degrees of glory represented by the sun, the moon and the stars. There appears to be a feeling that the sun was the Celestial Kingdom so inhabited by God. BY seems to have thought the same thing. After all they had read Isa 33

"Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly;..."

It's okay for him to believe that, no one else has ever been able to explain where heaven is.

He is also working with our Book of Abraham where he is told that there are different stars of different sizes and times and where God dwells is neigh unto a star named Kolob. He is absolutely right there are larger earths than this one, larger stars with moons. And being larger there times of counting years are different than ares. I don't know how much of all this was understood in the 1830s and 40s but now proven by science.

*Please note he says they are people like us and not 10ft tall ect.

 

[withwonderingawe]

See what joseph smith taught, and decide for yourself if he is a credible prophet for God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Banned?

 

[Yanni depp]

Very off-topic. I suggest that you delete this and start your own thread.

I dont really feel inclined. He asked me to comment on it. I obviously disagree and stated another thing that Joe said. Happy for you that you went from mormonism to Christ tho. Take care

Edit: apologies, didnt realize you were the OP, I will try to be more attentive next time

 

[withwonderingawe]

I listen to the bible every month to two months, it's not in there, I've been studying the bible 35 years, and God is alive and always has been.

We’ve gone over this several times here but you seem to be knew so we’ll do it once again. Joseph was actually giving a speech at a funeral for a man name King Follet (I know odd name). He his intent was that if we know the true nature of God and our relationship to him it helps us accept death more easily. After some opening words he says;

“…First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another…..(see Gen 1:26)

But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible.

…..What did Jesus say? (Mark it, elder Rigdon!) Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible.”

Joseph was referring to John 5 I’ll start with verse 17
….Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

This passage shows the Hebrew concept of being an agent. The son can be the agent of his father and in so doing he becomes equal to the father, his word is the same as his father’s. In this case they realized Jesus was calling himself the Son of God and so making him equal to God.

But Jesus stops them and says

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth…”

In other words no I’m not equal to the Father I can only do what he has shown me. He did say in John 14 “for my Father is greater than I.”

Joseph’s understood this to mean that somehow God the Father showed Jesus what he himself had done. Not hard thing to do if you command passed, present and future. Jesus was walking in the same steps of his Father before him.

“ For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. …Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself…”

In other words again; I’m going to die and bring about an atonement and resurrection thus being able to call mankind forth from the grave as my Father had done before me.

Now let’s go back to that quote from Hyrum Smith

“ for every Star that we see is a world and is inhabited the same as this world is peopled…..There was & is a first man Adam and also a Saviour in the Meredien of times, the same computing times and all things in order...."

The theory is that across the universe there are many planets all going through the same saving process we are, each one needs a savior.

Joseph Smith said that “God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did” So this mean that at one time God the Father was an eternal spirit like Jesus/Yahweh was. He played the role of a Messiah just as Jesus did, he died on a cross and took on the sins of his brothers and sisters on his planet. Three days later he rose from the grave just as Jesus did a fully resurrected immortal man.

“For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself..”