Is water Baptism essential for salvation?

[SkyWriting]

All that above? Seriously, it's not that complex. Sounds like you're going around the block a few times to present your doctrine. I'll pass.

You posted:..."By no coincidence water baptism is the means that gives us access into Christ's death"

If you say so.

Not even if anyone says so.

 

[SkyWriting]

5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

And grace without water dunking, splashing, cloth soaking, or sprinkling.
I'm surprised misting is not common.

 

[SkyWriting]

--the bible is the source of God's truth, not those who claim to be Christians.
--Jesus made belief a prerequisite to baptism in Mk 16:16. Since infants do not have the mental ability, cognitive skills to have a biblical belief they are not candidates for baptism.
--the purpose of baptism is for the remission of sin Acts 2:38. Infants are born without sin therefore again, they are not candidates for baptism.

Infants are born into a sin condition. But they do not have the law
and they do not do what is wrong, to them.

So whoever knows the right thing to do
and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
Mathew 7: 12

 

[TheSeabass]

Should we not choose the Lord everyday? Your disobedience...as well as mine...shows we often don't choose the lord as much as we should. Your theology condemns us to hell for disobedience.

No one is perfectly sinless, therefore God allowed a second avenue of forgiveness for the Christian in repenting, Acts 8:22.

That's either a crazy or misunderstood position you present. I'm thinking misunderstood.
...As you well know, every single human who has ever lived or will live stands guilty before God. Every human that has lived or will ever live deserves justice...which is separation from God. (hell).....All men sin and fall short.
To some people God has mercy. Or will you now present a few bible verses that tell us God has no mercy?
Remember God would have been just if He didn't save a single person. Or, do you also deny that? You seem to when you called God a failure for not having mercy on all people.....are you sure you want to go down that rabbit hole?

The idea that man can only have faith if God gives it to him is to be rejected for it puts fault, culpability upon God when He has none. It shifts the accountability and responsibility God gave to man back onto God. Man has been commanded to believe thereby the command puts accountability and responsibility upon man to believe. It would be pointless and senseless to command man to believe if he could not. The question here is are you going to dig the hole you are already in even deeper.

 

[TheSeabass]

All three, faith, grace and salvation are a gift. How else are we justified?

Faith is not a gift in the sense one can only have it if God gives it to him. For again, that puts God at fault for the faithless and negates man's free will. Why would faith be a gift if man has no free will to choose to accept it or reject it? Faith is a gift in that GOd has allowed, grantedd man the opportunity to choose to have faith and be saved.

Faith would be a gift in the sense that God did not owe man salvation but due to God's grace He has made salvation possible for man by faith.

Then explain why some people get it while others don't?

People who have d so because of free will choice. Many examples in the book of Acts where the gospel was preached, some chose to receive it while others chose to reject it.

 

[TheSeabass]

I can present every instance of salvation. EVERY INSTANCE.

Now you sort of added a special clause to your argument...

I asked Show me one example under the NT gospel were one was saved by doing nothing thereby saved by DISobeying the will of God. BU you have yet to show one, instead you make a very incredible statement when you post....

....Being disobedient or obedient has nothing to do with your salvation. Currently I'm beginning to think you feel the need to merit your salvation....is that true? Perhaps you're trying to straddle the fence...yes?

Truly incredible statement. I see you posted no book chapter verse to back this up. This statement is the exact opposite of what the bible teaches. Again, show me one example under the NT gospel were one was saved by doing nothing thereby saved by DISobeying the will of God.





And I see you throw in a straw man for good measure also.


Let me take the time to burn your straw man to the ground...again

Heb 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

Was the saving of Noah's house by grace or merited by the work Noah did in building the ark?

God did not owe Noah anything, therefore the saving of Noah and his house was by grace, yet that grace came with the condition that Noah build the ark. So the work in building the ark could not merit God's grace for God already extended grace to Noah, all the work done in building the ark could do was meet the condition God put upon His already extended grace.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes indeed, and in truth - what would have happened to Noah if he had rebelled and refused to build the ARK (a 100 year long construction, btw) or refused to preach the warning for 100 years to those around him ?

Like the unprofitable servant who hid his talent(s),

losing everything... having not pleased the master who gave him the talent(s).

 

[TheSeabass]

Wrong. The Bible only tells us of the Truth. It is Jesus who is the source of the Truth. John 14:6: Jesus replied, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life."

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.....And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us....

Jesus and the Word are the same.

In any event, those Christians who practice infant baptism--who are the vast majority of Christians--get that from scripture. The Bible tells us that whole families--which would have included children--were baptized in the early church. Acts 16:33-34: "At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family." Likewise Peter said "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call." Acts 3:38-39.

Just because men practice some thing does not make it true. Most of what is practiced is false. All the contradictions that exist prove most do not have the truth.

Peter was preaching to adults accountable for their sins and who could understand spoken language and had the mental ability to believe. This is not rue of infants.

The phrase "you and your children.." children refers to descendants, future generations.

If Mark 16:16 said "he that first believes and then is baptized" you might have a point. However, as written it does not make belief a prerequisite to baptism.

The ORDER of the verse puts "believeth" first BEFORE baptism.

If the instructions say "Open the can and empty the contents" the logical order of the instructions is 'open' is put BEFORE 'empty'. One would have to work hard at not understanding this simple instruction. Are you telling me, or willing to admit, that since the instructions do not say "open FIRST and THEN empty" you would be trying to empty the can before opening it?

Infants cannot knowingly sin, but they are born with a sinful nature. Psalm 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."

Now, you are certainly welcome to your interpretation of scripture. However, I and the majority of Christians disagree with your interpretation.

Psa 51 says nothing about infants being born sinners. Psa 58:3 says they "go astray" which shows personal culpability and not how one was passively born against his will/



Psa 51 speaks of conception. Psalms 58:3 speaks of birth. Conception and birth are 2 distinct points separated by about 9 months. So if original sin were true, when does one become a sinner? At conception? At birth? In one becomes a sinner at conception he cannot become a sinner at birth for he already is a sinner. If one does not become a sinner until birth, then he is not a sinner at conception.

 

[TheSeabass]

The reason this refers to being born is that is the current conversation being spoken.

Not a few verses away, but a direct response.

What you are suggesting is the Jesus is pointing out how the womb comment
is rediculous. That's not how Jesus converses with people. He is supporting
the womb comment, and adding that there is a spiritual parallel, the Spirit
is reborn, just as a baby is born from water.

It has not connection with actual events a few verses later.....not part of the
actual dialogue.

Jesus speaks of one birth with two elements; water and spirit.
Some people have no problem with 'spirit' meaning literal 'spirit' but cannot have water mean literal water so they invent ideas to make 'water' mean something other than literal water, as in making 'water' to figuratively mean physical birth to avoid the water baptism in John 5:3. 'Water' in John 3:5 is no different than 'water' in John 3:23.

If water means physical birth in Jn 3:5 Jesus attached an EXCEPT and MUST to it, Jesus said EXCEPT a man be physically born he cannot see the kingdom of God. Logic dictates one must exist before he can be saved or lost. If you asked for directions to the local Walmart and I tell you must be physically born before you can enter the kingdom of Walmart, how mush nonsense is that!?!? The fact you exist proves you have ALREADY been physically born so there is not need to make that requirement to enter Walmart.

Also, Jesus was speaking of the new birth. something Nicodemus had NOT experienced. He already experienced the physical birth, so the physical birth was not what Christ was referring to in John 3:3,5.

If Jesus is using 'water' to refer to physical birth in John 3 then does 'baptized" and "laver of water" in other born again verses as 1 Cor 12:13, Tts 3:5 EPh 5:26 refer to the physical birth also? No, because the physical birth is not part of the new birth.

Jn 3:5--------------spirit++++++++water>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13----------spirit+++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5----------Holy GHost+++++laver of water>>>>saved
Eph 5:26--------the word++++++laver of water>>>>>cleansed

 

[TheSeabass]

Infants are born into a sin condition. But they do not have the law
and they do not do what is wrong, to them.

So whoever knows the right thing to do
and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
Mathew 7: 12

Sin is transgression of the law. What law has the newly conceived transgressed that makes them sinners? Did they lie, steal, murder? The fact that sin is transgression of the law, 1 John 3:4 and is not a gene passed from one to another or a substance as bacteria that is passed one to another or just an idea that is passed one to another makes the man made idea of original sin impossible.

 

[TheSeabass]

Yes indeed, and in truth - what would have happened to Noah if he had rebelled and refused to build the ARK (a 100 year long construction, btw) or refused to preach the warning for 100 years to those around him ?

Like the unprofitable servant who hid his talent(s),

losing everything... having not pleased the master who gave him the talent(s).

.....yet some here are saying salvation is not based on obedience or disobedience.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Wondering: since children of unclean parents (unsaved parents) are unclean, when do the children become unclean ?

Likewise, since all mankind is consigned under sin, what Scripture shows that any unclean child is even potentially saved ? (since there is nothing unclean allowed in heaven)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.....yet some here are saying salvation is not based on obedience or disobedience.

English language, western and greek thought and ideas, is so foreign to Hebrew thinking, customs and life,
that
it is (as seen daily for centuries) difficult for anyone born and raised without knowledge of the truth , or not raised in the way they should go,
to understand even simple Bible language including faith and works and love and commandments.....

Not to make excuse for anyone, as no excuse works, ...

 

[StevenBelievin]

Adding to the text of scripture. Not a good practice.

You ASSUME that "deeds of the Law" and "Mosaic covenant" are equivalent. They are not.

Yes they are equivalent. The law was handed down by Moses to the people of Israel. God told them if they were careful to do all that is within the law they would be blessed, and if they did not keep the law they would be cursed. That's the Mosaic Covenant. Keeping and obeying the law is the Mosaic Covenant.

 

[Dave-W]

That's the Mosaic Covenant. Keeping and obeying the law is the Mosaic Covenant.

There are too many errors in that post to address here. It is way off topic.

This thread is about baptism.

 

[Albion]

Peter was preaching to adults accountable for their sins and who could understand spoken language and had the mental ability to believe. This is not true of infants.

True, and all that this proves is that those verses in which we see someone preaching to an adult (who then is baptized) do not cover infants or young children. The speaker is addressing an adult about his decision. It does not show that anyone else is excluded from Baptism.

The phrase "you and your children.." children refers to descendants, future generations.

That's rather a stretch, but what about "whole households" being baptized? Is there a special excuse for that verse and that situation?

Psa 51 says nothing about infants being born sinners.

It certainly does. See below.

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Psa 51 speaks of conception.

Then, by being born, you are automatically changed from in sin to being sinless? What sense is there in that theory?

 

[Galilee63]

We receive The Holy Gifts Blessings and Graces from The Holy Spirit once we are Baptised through Jesus Mercy, His Divine Mercy.

These are the 7 Holy Gifts of The Holy Spirit

7 Gifts of the Holy Spirit



The revelation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is rooted in the prophecy of Isaiah about the coming Messiah: "But a shoot shall sprout from the stump of Jesse, and from his roots a bud shall blossom. The spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him: a spirit of wisdom and of understanding, a spirit of counsel and of strength, a spirit of knowledge and of fear of the Lord, and his delight shall be the fear of the Lord" (Is 11:1-3). While the prophecy of Isaiah pertains specifically to the Messiah, the Tradition of the Church is that these gifts are extended to all of the faithful through the sacraments of Baptism and especially Confirmation. St. Paul taught, "For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son ..." (Rom 8:29), indicating that through the grace of these sacraments a person takes on an identity with Christ and shares those gifts proper to His role as the Messiah (at least those which are communicable to us).




Confirming this belief, St. Ambrose in De mysteriis taught, "Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the spirit of holy fear in God's presence. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with His sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed His pledge, the Spirit, in your hearts" (7, 42).



Given this basis, traditionally the seven gifts are listed as fear of the Lord, piety, knowledge, understanding, counsel, wisdom and fortitude. Moreover, in the Old Testament, seven is the number of perfection, plentitude and covenant.



First, the term "gift" needs to be clarified. They are properly termed "gifts of the Holy Spirit" because the Holy Spirit bestows them. Therefore, they are supernatural gifts operating in a supernatural mode or manner. These are not gifts one simply invokes in times of emergency; rather, these gifts are present to the person as long as he remains in a state of sanctifying grace. As such, these gifts help a person attain sanctification and bring to perfection virtues, both the theological virtues (faith, hope and charity) and the infused virtues (prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance). The idea here is that these gifts help a person to share in the very life and nature of God, now in this life and for eternal life. In this sense, as St. Thomas Aquinas asserted, they are in the fullest sense "habits," from the Latin habitus, signifying their indwelling presence and operation.



With the foundation regarding the nature of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, we can proceed to each gift. The basic definitions which follow are quoted from Spiritual Theology. Moreover, the order followed was composed by Pope St. Gregory the Great, who tried to capture the spiritual dynamic which the Holy Spirit imparts to the soul through these gifts: "Through the fear of the Lord, we rise to piety, from piety then to knowledge, from knowledge we derive strength, from strength counsel, with counsel we move towards understanding, and with intelligence towards wisdom and thus, by the sevenfold grace of the Spirit, there opens to us at the end of the ascent the entrance to the life of Heaven" (Homiliae in Hiezechihelem Prophetam, II 7,7).



The Gift of Fear of the Lord enables the person "to avoid sin and attachment to created things out of reverence and love of God." Primarily, this gift entails a profound respect for the majesty of God who is the Supreme Being. Here, a person realizes his "creatureliness" and dependency upon God, and never would want to be separated from this loving God. This gift of fear arouses in the soul a vibrant sense of adoration and reverence for the majesty of God and a sense of horror and sorrow for sin.



This gift is sometimes misunderstood because of the word fear. The fear referred to here is not a servile fear whereby a person serves God simply because he fears punishment, whether some sort of temporal punishment in this life or the eternal punishment of Hell. A genuine relationship with God is based on love, not fear. Therefore, this "fear of the Lord" is a filial or reverential fear which moves a person to do God's will and avoid sin because of love for God, who is all good and deserving of all of our love. In a similar way, a child should not be motivated to obey a parent's moral guidance or commands simply because of fear of punishment, but because of love and respect. One should fear hurting a loved one and violating that person's trust, more than one should fear punishment. (Nevertheless, one should have a healthy sense of fear for the punishment due to sin, even though this should not be the motivating factor for loving God.)



The Gift of Fear brings to perfection primarily the virtue of hope: a person respects God as God, trusting in His will and anchoring his life on Him. Moreover, he wants to be joined with God forever in Heaven. This gift is also the launch pad for the other gifts: As Sacred Scripture attests, "Happy the man who fears the Lord, who greatly delights in His commands" (Psalm 112:1) and "The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord" (Sirach 1:12).



Secondly, this gift also perfects the virtue of temperance, which seeks to use all things wisely, and in moderation, not to the excess, especially those sensible pleasures. With reason enlightened by faith, temperance controls the passions. Temperance is related to the Gift of Fear because one's awareness and respect for the sanctity of God motivates a person as a creature to give glory to God by being temperate in actions and desires.



With the Gift of Fear, the person rises to the Gift of Piety: "to give filial worship to God precisely as our Father and to relate with all people as children of the same Father." Here a person shows reverence for God as a loving Father, and sees others as children of God. As such, the Gift of Piety perfects the virtue of justice, enabling the individual to fulfill his obligations to God and neighbor; the person is not only motivated by the requirements of strict justice but also by the loving relationship he shares with his neighbor. For example, we fulfill the commandments not simply because they are commandments but because of our love for the Heavenly Father and for our brothers and sisters in the Lord.



Knowledge is the gift that enables a person "to judge rightly concerning the truths of faith in accordance with their proper causes and the principles of revealed truth." Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the human intellect makes correct judgments regarding earthly things and how they are related to eternal life and Christian perfection. As such, this gift is a special illumination, which enables the person to realize the emptiness of created things in themselves so that they do not become roadblocks to union with God. At the same time, it enables the person to see through created things to the God who created them. Therefore, instead of seeing created things as obstacles to union with God, the soul views them as instruments for union with God. As such, a person sees how to use created things rightly and even in a holy way. Moreover, the gift gives to the person a sense of faith, sensus fidei, meaning that the person has a divine instinct about whether or not something, like a devotion, is in accord with the faith even though he may never have had a formal theological education. This gift produces several effects which have great value for sanctification of the soul: introspection, enabling the person to see the state of his soul; detachment from material things; and repentance for the misuse of material things or when they have been allowed to become obstacles to God. St. Thomas taught that the Gift of Knowledge brings to perfection the virtue of faith, but is linked also to the perfection of prudence, justice and temperance.



With the Gift of Fortitude, a person is able "to overcome difficulties or to endure pain and suffering with the strength and power infused by God." As with the other gifts, fortitude operates under the impulse of the Holy Spirit, and gives strength to the person to resist evil and persevere to everlasting life. This gift brings the virtue of fortitude to perfection, charging it with energy, perseverance and promptness. Moreover, it brings a confidence of success to the virtue. For example, Maximilian Kolbe not only had great fortitude to offer promptly his life in exchange for another and to endure a horrible death, but also had the confidence of success that he would overcome the powers of evil and gain everlasting life. Lastly, the Gift of Fortitude enables the individual to live the other virtues heroically, to suffer with patience and joy, to overcome all lukewarmness in the service of God.



The Gift of Counsel is "to render the individual docile and receptive to the counsel of God regarding one's actions in view of sanctification and salvation." Primarily, this gift enables a person to judge individual acts as good and ought to be done, or as evil and ought to be avoided. The counsel is made in view of one's own personal sanctification and one's ultimate supernatural end. Therefore, this gift prompts the person to ask himself, "Will this act lead to holiness? Will this act lead to Heaven?"



Clearly, this gift is linked with the virtue of prudence; however, while the virtue of prudence operates in accord with reason as enlightened by faith, the Gift of Counsel operates under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Consequently, the counsel given may be that which reason would not be able to give an explanation. For example, using the example of Maximilian Kolbe, such an act of self-sacrifice for another is the right thing to do but does not necessarily follow the normal, reasonable course of self-preservation.



Also, counsel can deal with the immediacy of the situation. For example, through the Gift of Counsel, the Holy Spirit helps a person in a dilemma reconcile the necessity of guarding a secret with the obligation of speaking the truth. Counsel aids the virtue of prudence, and brings it to perfection. This gift also has great effects: preserving a good conscience, providing solutions to difficult and unexpected situations, and helping to give counsel to others, especially in matters of personal sanctification and salvation.



Understanding is a gift "to give a deeper insight and penetration of divine truths held by faith, not as a transitory enlightenment but as a permanent intuition." Illuminating the mind to truth, The Holy Spirit aids a person to grasp truths of faith easily and intimately, and to penetrate the depths of those truths. This gift not only assists in penetrating revealed truths, but also natural truths in so far as they are related to the supernatural end. The essential quality of this gift is a "penetrating intuition" - in a sense, the moving beyond the surface. This gift, penetrating the truths of faith, operates in several ways: disclosing the hidden meaning of Sacred Scripture; revealing the significance of symbols and figures (like St. Paul seeing Christ as fulfillment of the rock of the Exodus account that poured forth water to quench the thirst of the Israelites (1 Cor 10:4); showing the hand of God at work in a person's life, even in the most mysterious or troublesome events (like suffering); and revealing the spiritual realities that underlie sensible appearances (like penetrating the mystery of the Lord's sacrifice in the ritual of the Mass). This gift brings the virtue of faith to perfection. Accordingly, St. Thomas said, "In this very life, when the eye of the spirit is purified by the gift of understanding, one can in a certain way see God" (Summa theologiae II-II, q. 69, a. 2, ad. 3).



The last of the seven gifts is that of Wisdom: "to judge and order all things in accordance with divine norms and with a connaturality that flows from loving union with God." The Holy Spirit aids the contemplation of divine things, enabling the person to grow in union with God. With this gift, even an "uneducated soul" can possess the most profound knowledge of the divine. For example, St. Therese of Lisieux had no formal education in theology, and yet was wise to the ways of the Lord. While this gift contemplates the divine, it is also a practical wisdom. It applies God's ideas to judge both created and divine matter. Consequently, it also directs human acts according to the divine.



This gift has great effects: With this gift a person will see and evaluate all things - both joy and sorrow, pleasure and pain, success or failure - from God's point of view, and accept them with equanimity. With Wisdom, all things, even the worst, are seen as having a supernatural value. For example, the Gift of Wisdom gives value to martyrdom. Here a person arises above the wisdom of this world, and lives in the love of God. For this reason, the Gift of Wisdom brings to perfection charity.



The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are without question great gifts essential for our sanctification and salvation. Each baptized and confirmed Christian should implore the Holy Spirit to inflame in his soul these gifts. One person said that with gifts and qualities such as these, we are equal to any task and capable of overcoming any difficulties.

 

[Galilee63]

I did not write this - it is part of my relationship with our Lord Jesus and The Holy Spirit and Mother Mary and written by a Catholic

 

[StevenBelievin]

There are too many errors in that post to address here. It is way off topic.

This thread is about baptism.

Errors huh?

The error here is thinking that anyone could have been saved via the old covenant outside of Christ. That's what your saying the thief on the cross did. That is an error because it basically suggests Christ didn't need to suffer and die because the Mosaic covenant was good enough. Well guess what? It wasn't good enough. No one was saved through the old covenant. All the old covenant was good for was to point to the new covenant. To make people understand that they aren't good enough and need a savior.

The OT saints didn't go to hell but went to a place referred to as Abraham's Bosom. They could not yet stand in the presence of God because Christ's blood had not yet been shed. Only through Christ's blood can we be in God's presence as totally righteous. Jesus refers to Abraham's Bosom in Luke 16:22. After Christ died on the cross he acquired the keys to death and hell, then emptied Abraham's Bosom and brought the OT saints to heaven.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and nI will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

But all this is way off topic so this will be the my last post on the subject.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

From the title: one word there: "essential"

Consider the source .... always.....

when the source is rotten, the teaching is rotten.(fruit)

Thus why a lot of rotten teaching(fruit) comes from the same source(s) throughout history.... always opposed to Scripture...