Seventh day observance compulsory?

[bugkiller]

Many here have no balance. Unfortunately for me to live also requires interaction with even the wicked. One thing that bothers me a lot is those who think I have to do business with them just because they present themselves as Christian. Often times their work and products are shoddy. Very poor testimony.

hear, hear!!!!

bugkiller

 

[WailingWall]

Hi Lady, it appears that you might be going off the deep end. Jesus lived under the law, something that we have no need to do. He fulfilled the law meaning He brought it to an end.

Not so Bob s

MATT.5 [17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. [18] For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

What does Jesus say? First he says he has not come to destroy the law. Then he goes on to say the law is intact until heaven and earth pass. Has the earth passed? I know for a fact im still standing on this earth. So...Lets use some common sense. Jesus did fulfil the law and the law is still to be followed. It was not nailed to the cross as the "many" claim. So what did Jesus mean when he said he came to fulfill the law?

LUKE 24 [44] And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL THINGS MUST BE FULFILLED, WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN THE LAW of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, CONCERNING ME.

Yeah, He came and fulfilled the prophecies of His coming which were written in the law of Moses concerning Him. The new covenant in His blood. The meat and drink offerings OF the new moons, feast days and the sabbaths which were but a shadow of Christ

HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary..... [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation....[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Verse 1- The 1st covenant had ordinances

Verse 9- Which were a figure {a shadow}

Verse 9- Which were the meat and drink offerings for sin. Jesus fulfilled that part of the law of Moses

Verse 12- These offerings are now fulfilled in Christ

HEBREWS 10 [1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Verse 1- The law concerning those animal sacrifices and offerings were a SHADOW of Christ

Verse 4- That law was fulfilled in Christ because the blood of those animals did not take away sin.

HEBREWS 10 [8] Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND. [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 9 and 10 explain how Jesus fulfilled which was written of Him in the law of Moses. Its not the blood of bulls and goats anymore. They were the shadow of Christ which was written in the law... which He fulfilled. Now whats written in Matt.5 can be easily understood.

 

[WailingWall]

He has an abundant amount of grace to pass out to those who love Him.

1 JOHN 5 [1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. [2] BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

 

[1stcenturylady]

1 JOHN 5 [1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. [2] BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

The question is which commandments? Your quote is from 1 John 5. Go back two chapters and you will find that John has already told us what are our commandments. 1 John 3:23.

Our new commandments do not contradict the Ten Commandments, but adds our Savior, our Sabbath rest. By trusting in Christ, He gives us the Holy Spirit to love our neighbor with agape love, the love of God. Through love we establish the law. We no longer need them written on a list, as they are seared into our conscience.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello WailingWall.

You said the following.

MATT.5 [17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. [18] For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

What does Jesus say? First he says he has not come to destroy the law. Then he goes on to say the law is intact until heaven and earth pass. Has the earth passed? I know for a fact im still standing on this earth. So...Lets use some common sense. Jesus did fulfil the law and the law is still to be followed. It was not nailed to the cross as the "many" claim. So what did Jesus mean when he said he came to fulfill the law?

The following verse has been misunderstood by many.

Matthew 5
18 For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until what happens?

The condition is clearly stated in the verse, 'till all be fulfilled', only then can one jot or title pass from the law.

Therefore, if even one jot has passed from the law, then of course the stated condition is true, all has been fulfilled.

If anyone thinks that all has not been fulfilled, then the verse above states that the entire law is still binding.

It is impossible to remove just one jot from the law, without proclaiming that all has been fufilled.

 

[bugkiller]

Not so Bob s

MATT.5 [17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. [18] For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

What does Jesus say? First he says he has not come to destroy the law. Then he goes on to say the law is intact until heaven and earth pass. Has the earth passed? I know for a fact im still standing on this earth. So...Lets use some common sense. Jesus did fulfil the law and the law is still to be followed. It was not nailed to the cross as the "many" claim. So what did Jesus mean when he said he came to fulfill the law?

LUKE 24 [44] And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL THINGS MUST BE FULFILLED, WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN THE LAW of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, CONCERNING ME.

Yeah, He came and fulfilled the prophecies of His coming which were written in the law of Moses concerning Him. The new covenant in His blood. The meat and drink offerings OF the new moons, feast days and the sabbaths which were but a shadow of Christ

HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary..... [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation....[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Verse 1- The 1st covenant had ordinances

Verse 9- Which were a figure {a shadow}

Verse 9- Which were the meat and drink offerings for sin. Jesus fulfilled that part of the law of Moses

Verse 12- These offerings are now fulfilled in Christ

HEBREWS 10 [1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Verse 1- The law concerning those animal sacrifices and offerings were a SHADOW of Christ

Verse 4- That law was fulfilled in Christ because the blood of those animals did not take away sin.

HEBREWS 10 [8] Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND. [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 9 and 10 explain how Jesus fulfilled which was written of Him in the law of Moses. Its not the blood of bulls and goats anymore. They were the shadow of Christ which was written in the law... which He fulfilled. Now whats written in Matt.5 can be easily understood.

So you make your case that some jots and tittles of the law have passed. The problem is your quote of Mat 5:18. In essence what you offer here is double speak known as a lie to most people.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

1 JOHN 5 [1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. [2] BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

The commandments of Jesus, yes and amen! Your reading dumps the coma to change the meaning from the commandments of Jesus to those of the Father (10 Cs).

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Hello WailingWall.

You said the following.

The following verse has been misunderstood by many.

Matthew 5
18 For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until what happens?

The condition is clearly stated in the verse, 'till all be fulfilled', only then can one jot or title pass from the law.

Therefore, if even one jot has passed from the law, then of course the stated condition is true, all has been fulfilled.

If anyone thinks that all has not been fulfilled, then the verse above states that the entire law is still binding.

It is impossible to remove just one jot from the law, without proclaiming that all has been fufilled.

Could not say it any better.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Is seventh day keeping compulsory for Christians?

for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

"The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 speaking of the "making of both" mankind AND the Sabbath which happens in Genesis 2:1-3.

A point so obvious that even the majority of pro-Sunday scholars admit to it.

See my signature line.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, it is true, every Christian learns more and grows if they have a mind do follow Jesus. Do you think that seventh day keeping comes later after one has grown for a while?

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

1 John 5:2-3 "THIS IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

Exodus 20:7 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" in the still-valid unit of TEN

Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Notice how Jesus Himself claims that this means KEEPING the "Father's Commandment"

John 14
9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 12
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Jesus is the one speaking the TEN Commandments - AND - the New Covenant

Hebrews 8:6-10
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Jesus said "God's Commandment" and "Moses said" and "Word of God" are terms that all apply to the Ten Commandments.

Mark 7
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the Word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

 

[GingerBeer]

for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

Isaiah 66:23 does not say "for all eternity".

 

[BobRyan]

Weren't the Jews in Berea checking that Paul was telling old testament stories accurately?

Acts 17:11 "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - WERE SO"

Acts 18:4 "EVERY Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles gathered in the synagogues to hear GOSPEL preaching.

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we establish the LAW of God"

Rom 2:13-16 "It is NOT the hearers of the LAW that ARE just before God - but the DOERS of the LAW WILL Be justiFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge"

 

[BobRyan]

Isaiah 66:23 does not say "for all eternity".

It says it is in the New Earth - which lasts for all eternity as we are told in Rev 21:1-6

 

[BobRyan]

I believe anyone asking this should do the same thing the Bereans did. Look up all the relevant scriptures and their commentary on both sides of the argument and take accountability for your decision. It's a subject that's been discussed, discussed and discussed near to death. There are web pages and web pages on both sides of the issue too. So it's not as if a Christian can't make an informed decision.

Bingo!

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, it is true, every Christian learns more and grows if they have a mind do follow Jesus. Do you think that seventh day keeping comes later after one has grown for a while?

For some people. For me - I was raised Seventh-day Adventist so it happened pretty quick

It also happened pretty quick for Abraham, Samuel, Christ, Paul, John

 

[GingerBeer]

It says it is in the New Earth - which lasts for all eternity as we are told in Rev 21:1-6

Revelation 21:1-6 does not say that the new earth lasts for eternity.

 

[BobRyan]

This thread is over a month old and has more than 400 posts. I have been on it less than 30 minutes. I have a question - which post opposing the Sabbath that have been posted to Gingerbeer by someone else here - do these texts in the few posts of mine given in the last few minutes... not address??

I would really like to know.

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation 21:1-6 does not say that the new earth lasts for eternity.

I don't know of any Bible commentary/scholar claiming that the New Earth is "temporary" -

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown :: Commentary on Revelation 21
"The remaining two chapters describe the eternal and consummated kingdom of God and the saints on the new earth."
from; Commentary on Revelation 21 by Jamieson, Fausset & Brown

Rev 21
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son


9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Rev 22

1. And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

 

[BobRyan]

Then this NC is not exclusive to Israel.

bugkiller

Romans 2
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

 

[GingerBeer]

I don't know of any Bible commentary/scholar claiming that the New Earth is "temporary"

Nevertheless Revelation 21:1-6 does not say that the new earth is eternal.