Seventh day observance compulsory?

[klutedavid]

I studied this long and hard for many years, because I was raised Seventh-day Adventist. Because Christians talk about the Ten Commandments so much, it is easy to convert someone to the law. It wasn't until I was filled with the Spirit and overnight received such power over sin - loving what God loves, and hating what God hates - that I knew how our New Covenant worked. It is no longer by the letter, but by His Spirit.

On the other hand, grace can be just as abused, so we must be careful to consistently walk in love and in the Spirit, otherwise we can turn grace into the abominable license to sin. Grace was only unmerited favor up until we accept Christ. In other words, it is not by our works that we are accepted by Christ to become saved. But after conversion to Christ which REQUIRES repentance from our past sins, does He bestow on us His powerful Spirit. At that point grace is no longer unmerited favor, but the actual POWER OF GOD.

Look at this:

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

Was Jesus full of unmerited favor, or was He full of POWER?

Bob, also look at one of the Hebrew styles of writing called doubling. That means it will say the same thing twice in two different ways, but will mean the same thing.

Acts 4:33 "33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

By this style of writing we see that grace is also power. It is not us, but the Holy Spirit in us. Therefore, if you walk in the Spirit you are not under the law. The key word there is IF. This is also why John could say in 1 John 3:4-10 that we who have this supernatural power does not willfully sin. Our will has been turned over to the Holy Spirit who cannot sin. It is also why John said in 1 John 1:7 that if you walk in the light as Jesus is in the light, we have fellowship with one another (not only loving our neighbor as our self, but communion with God) and the sins we commit while walking in the light are automatically forgiven. The OT called that type of sin, unintentional sin. (Numbers 15:22-36) Willful sin will quench the Spirit. And Romans 6 says if you allow yourself to continue in willfully sinning, the wages of sin is death.

Bob, don't let anyone on the grace side of Christianity tell you that "sin is sin" and that Jesus forgave our past, present and future sins, so willful sins are also under the blood. That's the danger.

I know you fight against those under the law, but in reality they have more fear of the Lord than the liberal grace side has. The only difference between them and those of us who walk in the Spirit is that they go to church on Saturday, rather than Sunday. Better that, seeing as there is no commandment to worship on Sunday, than those who willfully sin and think they are saved. Believe me, there will be many more law keepers, than perverted grace keepers in heaven.

That perverted grace is the reason those who stay under the law have reason to judge those who go to liberal churches. This is why they preach all ten commandments, including the 4th. And this is why I always preach on holiness through the Holy Spirit.

I don't know about you, but even though I walk in the Spirit, I am a divorced woman, so do refer to the law to see how God regards a subject like remarriage. I am set on not willfully sinning, so will refer to the law. Do you? This is why I am celibate and don't even date. My ex is still living...

Hello 1stcenturylady.

Your post is a contradiction.

Are you under the law or not?

 

[Soyeong]

Are you saying we are to live like a Jew by the law?

No we are not to live like a Jew, but rather we are to live like Messiah and follow his example of doing what is holy, righteous, and good and refraining from sin in accordance with God's Law. God's Law was not instructions for how to live like a Jew, but for how to walk in His ways according to His attributes. For example, in Leviticus 11:44-45 and 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are not told to have a holy conduct because we should be like Jews, but rather we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, so following His instructions for how to have a holy conduct is about acting according to the holiness of our God.

Living by the law isn't required to live a sinless life.

The Law was given to make us conscious of sin (Romans 3:20), without the Law we wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as Lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so it is impossible to live a sinless life that does not involve obedience to the Law.

Being righteous isn't the same as being sinless. This is because righteousness isn't acquired by our actions. Rom chapter 4 proves this.

As people who have been declared righteous by faith, by the same faith we are therefore to practice and train in righteousness (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17), which means we are to refrain from sin.

You're discrediting the Gospel of John as true. Your half reference to a verse in John 13 makes it false.

The word used for "new" in John 13:34 does not refer to something that is brand new with respect to time, but rather it refers to newness with respect to quality, and indeed Leviticus 19:18 shows that the command to love our neighbor is not brand new, but what is new is the quality of the example by which we should love our neighbor.

 

[Soyeong]

Why teach something if it's not meant to be acted on? The words "but I say" in the Sermon on the Mount is all I need to prove Jesus didn't teach the law. Even the law people here say Jesus changed (magnified; required something stiffer than) the law.

Everywhere that Jesus quoted Scripture, he always preceded by saying "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the people had heard being taught about God's Law, he preceeded by saying "you have heard that it was said". Jesus was not changing or magnifying the Law, but rather he was correctly what was being wrongly taught about it and teaching how the Law it was always intended to be understood and obeyed. This would have sounded to the Pharisees like he was undermining the Law, so he preceded that by assuring them that he came not to undermine the Law, but to fulfill the Law by causing God's will as made known in the Law to be obeyed as it should. For example:

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

While the Law certainly commands us to love our neighbor, it does not command us to hate our enemy, so that was what was wrongly being taught about the Law. Or:

Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

This is again nothing changed or magnified, but is simply the correct application of the 7th and 10th Commandments.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Hello 1stcenturylady.

Your post is a contradiction.

Are you under the law or not?

It can sound like a contradiction, I know. But read Romans - all of it not just where Paul talks about no laws in chapter 4. The only reason he says there are no laws, is because in chapter 6 when you are dead to sin, the power to sin has been broken, thus no laws are enticing you. But, if you CHOOSE to sin after this power has been broken and willfully sin, then you have changed masters. And the wages of sin is death.

I certainly hope you haven't fallen into the trap of the "grace is a license to sin" group. Sin is lawlessness. But a Christian doesn't willfully sin. So if you don't sin, you aren't under the law.

Do you have the power not to sin, or not?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Everywhere that Jesus quoted Scripture, he always preceded by saying "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the people had heard being taught about God's Law, he preceeded by saying "you have heard that it was said". Jesus was not changing or magnifying the Law, but rather he was correctly what was being wrongly taught about it and teaching how the Law it was always intended to be understood and obeyed. This would have sounded to the Pharisees like he was undermining the Law, so he preceded that by assuring them that he came not to undermine the Law, but to fulfill the Law by causing God's will as made known in the Law to be obeyed as it should. For example:

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

While the Law certainly commands us to love our neighbor, it does not command us to hate our enemy, so that was what was wrongly being taught about the Law. Or:

Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

This is again nothing changed or magnified, but is simply the correct application of the 7th and 10th Commandments.

That was not the only thing Jesus did - correct the misunderstandings in the law. What was the benefit gained from His death? Was it just so we wouldn't have to kill animals anymore?

When you obey the law, is it just studying the law as Christ spelled it out? Are you willing yourself to obey?

 

[Soyeong]

That was not the only thing Jesus did - correct the misunderstandings in the law.

I never said that was the only thing he did, just that that was what he was doing in when he said "you have heard that it was said" in Matthew 5.

What was the benefit gained from His death?

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Our salvation involves being trained by grace to do things in accordance with what the Law was given to instruct us how to do. It does not say that he gave himself to do away with any laws, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, and God's Law is again His instructions for how to do good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17), which is why many Jews coming to faith were becoming zealous for the Law (Acts 21:20).

Was it just so we wouldn't have to kill animals anymore?

Nope. Paul continued to make offerings when he took a Nazarite vow in Acts 18:18 and was on his way to pay for the offerings of others who had taken a similar vow in Acts 21:20-24 in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Law and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it.

When you obey the law, is it just studying the law as Christ spelled it out? Are you willing yourself to obey?

It is important not to study the Bible just to know, but in order to learn to do. By God's grace through faith I am willing to obey.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I never said that was the only thing he did, just that that was what he was doing in when he said "you have heard that it was said" in Matthew 5.



Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Our salvation involves being trained by grace to do things in accordance with what the Law was given to instruct us how to do. It does not say that he gave himself to do away with any laws, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, and God's Law is again His instructions for how to do good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17), which is why many Jews coming to faith were becoming zealous for the Law (Acts 21:20).



Nope. Paul continued to make offerings when he took a Nazarite vow in Acts 18:18 and was on his way to pay for the offerings of others who had taken a similar vow in Acts 21:20-24 in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Law and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it.



It is important not to study the Bible just to know, but in order to learn to do. By God's grace through faith I am willing to obey.

There is still one thing you lack, and that is being filled with the Holy Spirit. Then you don't have to study what laws to keep, your new nature will already be keeping them naturally without even thinking about them.

This gift of the Holy Spirit is the difference between those who keep the law under their own power through study, and those to live righteously by the new nature - the power of the Holy Spirit.

The way to receive this power is to ask for it. Acts 2:38 tells you how. To repent from sin, be baptized in His name, and you are promised to receive this gift.

 

[Soyeong]

There is still one thing you lack, and that is being filled with the Holy Spirit. Then you don't have to study what laws to keep, your new nature will already be keeping them naturally without even thinking about them.

This gift of the Holy Spirit is the difference between those who keep the law under their own power through study, and those to live righteously by the new nature - the power of the Holy Spirit.

The way to receive this power is to ask for it. Acts 2:38 tells you how. To repent from sin, be baptized in His name, and you are promised to receive this gift.

In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they tested everything that Paul said against OT Scripture to see if what he said is true. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, it says that the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's Law and in 1 John 4:1, we are told to test the spirits, so OT Scripture is how we know where the Spirit will lead us and what we can use to test the spirits to see if they are leading us away from obeying God. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so studying the Law is not about doing things through our own power, but about learning how to live by faith. I find nowhere in Scripture this concept of automatic obedience, but rather we must repent and turn from our disobedience back to obedience, and the Spirit will guide us to do this.

 

[bugkiller]

It can sound like a contradiction, I know. But read Romans - all of it not just where Paul talks about no laws in chapter 4. The only reason he says there are no laws, is because in chapter 6 when you are dead to sin, the power to sin has been broken, thus no laws are enticing you. But, if you CHOOSE to sin after this power has been broken and willfully sin, then you have changed masters. And the wages of sin is death.

I certainly hope you haven't fallen into the trap of the "grace is a license to sin" group. Sin is lawlessness. But a Christian doesn't willfully sin. So if you don't sin, you aren't under the law.

Do you have the power not to sin, or not?

James 1 does not agree with this.

bugkiller

 

[klutedavid]

It can sound like a contradiction, I know. But read Romans - all of it not just where Paul talks about no laws in chapter 4. The only reason he says there are no laws, is because in chapter 6 when you are dead to sin, the power to sin has been broken, thus no laws are enticing you. But, if you CHOOSE to sin after this power has been broken and willfully sin, then you have changed masters. And the wages of sin is death.

I certainly hope you haven't fallen into the trap of the "grace is a license to sin" group. Sin is lawlessness. But a Christian doesn't willfully sin. So if you don't sin, you aren't under the law.

Do you have the power not to sin, or not?

Hello 1stcenturylady.

You do seem to be confused, your posts are laden with the law and the Spirit.

Do you understand the difference between, 'sin is transgression of the law', and, 'the deeds of the flesh'?

 

[1stcenturylady]

In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they tested everything that Paul said against OT Scripture to see if what he said is true. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, it says that the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's Law and in 1 John 4:1, we are told to test the spirits, so OT Scripture is how we know where the Spirit will lead us and what we can use to test the spirits to see if they are leading us away from obeying God. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so studying the Law is not about doing things through our own power, but about learning how to live by faith. I find nowhere in Scripture this concept of automatic obedience, but rather we must repent and turn from our disobedience back to obedience, and the Spirit will guide us to do this.

1 John 4:1 was speaking specifically of false doctrines about Jesus in the Christian faith. Namely the Gnostics who did not believe Jesus came in the flesh, but only in Spirit form. They also are the founders of perverted grace, which is in the church still today. I doubt you have been infected by it, but there are some in this forum who obviously have been.

Automatic obedience is my own term. Ask yourself what laws or sins the Holy Spirit would lead us into? None. That is why when we walk in the Spirit we are dead to sin, thus are not under the law. Do you see that or not?

 

[1stcenturylady]

James 1 does not agree with this.

bugkiller

Hi Buggy, what don't you agree with. And in what way does James disagree with walking in the Spirit. The way I see it, God cannot be tempted, nor does He tempt us. Therefore, if you are walking in God, you have power to turn away from temptations and not sin. Do you disagree?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Hello 1stcenturylady.

You do seem to be confused, your posts are laden with the law and the Spirit.

Do you understand the difference between, 'sin is transgression of the law', and, 'the deeds of the flesh'?

Yes, I understand. However, Paul said we are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF the Spirit of Christ dwells in us. And if we don't have the Spirit we do not belong to Christ. There are many who will say look at all I did in your name, but Jesus will say, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. John says a Christian does not commit (willful) sin. Do you agree?

John and Paul both fought against the false doctrines by the Gnostics. They are also the founders of perverted grace, that seems to now be back in the church since the Reformation. I certainly hope you haven't been infected. But, I have my suspicions.

 

[listed]

No we are not to live like a Jew, but rather we are to live like Messiah and follow his example of doing what is holy, righteous, and good and refraining from sin in accordance with God's Law. God's Law was not instructions for how to live like a Jew, but for how to walk in His ways according to His attributes. For example, in Leviticus 11:44-45 and 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are not told to have a holy conduct because we should be like Jews, but rather we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, so following His instructions for how to have a holy conduct is about acting according to the holiness of our God.

How did Messiah live? If we're living like Messiah aren't we living like a Jew? You say "refraining from sin in accordance with God's Law." If you're not talking about the ten commandments , what are you talking about? What are you really talking about with your reference to 1 Peter? Can holiness also called righteousness be attained by keeping the law?

The Law was given to make us conscious of sin (Romans 3:20), without the Law we wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as Lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so it is impossible to live a sinless life that does not involve obedience to the Law.

Where does Romans 3 say what write?Did Abraham know what sin was? He didn't have the law.

Sin is also defined as lawlessness. There is that cute 4 letter word "also" not acknowledged in your post.

Your statement "t is impossible to live a sinless life that does not involve obedience to the Law" means we're to live like a Jew in obedience to the law. The NT makes no indication that's the case. I've seen Mat 19 quoted for support. When asked about what is going on, no one wants to discuss it.

As people who have been declared righteous by faith, by the same faith we are therefore to practice and train in righteousness (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17), which means we are to refrain from sin.

Your 1 Jonn reference says nothing about the law. Abraham couldn't have been trained by the law because he didn't have the law.

The word used for "new" in John 13:34 does not refer to something that is brand new with respect to time, but rather it refers to newness with respect to quality, and indeed Leviticus 19:18 shows that the command to love our neighbor is not brand new, but what is new is the quality of the example by which we should love our neighbor.

What wrd do you suggest is used in John 13:34? My interlinear says the word "kainēn" is used. The root word is "kainos" and means "new, fresh." It doesn't say renewed, restated, quoted , etc.

 

[listed]

Everywhere that Jesus quoted Scripture, he always preceded by saying "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the people had heard being taught about God's Law, he preceeded by saying "you have heard that it was said". Jesus was not changing or magnifying the Law, but rather he was correctly what was being wrongly taught about it and teaching how the Law it was always intended to be understood and obeyed. This would have sounded to the Pharisees like he was undermining the Law, so he preceded that by assuring them that he came not to undermine the Law, but to fulfill the Law by causing God's will as made known in the Law to be obeyed as it should. For example:

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

While the Law certainly commands us to love our neighbor, it does not command us to hate our enemy, so that was what was wrongly being taught about the Law. Or:

Why didn't you quote a command to love your enemy or bless them that curse you? If this is what God intended, why didn't He say so?

If my neighbor shoots my dog, what should I do by the law? Should I say thank you, take them some cookies and monetary reward?

Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Where is this found in the OT? If it isn't found, its not the law.

This is again nothing changed or magnified, but is simply the correct application of the 7th and 10th Commandments.

Jesus is recorded as saying "it is written only on 2 occasions. One of them was speaking to satan during His trial in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't preaching to satan. The other time is in the Sermon on the Mount as you quote from. If God meant for what Jesus said to be true, why didn't God say so in the law?

 

[Bob S]

Hi Lady, it appears that you might be going off the deep end. Jesus lived under the law, something that we have no need to do. He fulfilled the law meaning He brought it to an end. "it is finished". Christians "walk" is much different than Jesus "walk" under the law. Jesus is God and God cannot sin. We are sinners by birth. Why do you think grace was introduced? We all fall short and I am afraid you are obsessed that you might sin if you do anything. Jesus has given us the gift of grace. He knows our hearts and I admonish you to not keep trying to swim upstream. It does nothing but wear a person out. Don't get me wrong, I am not talking about debauchery, just lighten up. Jesus was a party man. He has an abundant amount of grace to pass out to those who love Him.

 

[listed]

1 John 4:1 was speaking specifically of false doctrines about Jesus in the Christian faith. Namely the Gnostics who did not believe Jesus came in the flesh, but only in Spirit form. They also are the founders of perverted grace, which is in the church still today. I doubt you have been infected by it, but there are some in this forum who obviously have been.

Automatic obedience is my own term. Ask yourself what laws or sins the Holy Spirit would lead us into? None. That is why when we walk in the Spirit we are dead to sin, thus are not under the law. Do you see that or not?

Could you explain Gal 5:18 for us?

 

[listed]

It can sound like a contradiction, I know. But read Romans - all of it not just where Paul talks about no laws in chapter 4. The only reason he says there are no laws, is because in chapter 6 when you are dead to sin, the power to sin has been broken, thus no laws are enticing you. But, if you CHOOSE to sin after this power has been broken and willfully sin, then you have changed masters. And the wages of sin is death.

I certainly hope you haven't fallen into the trap of the "grace is a license to sin" group. Sin is lawlessness. But a Christian doesn't willfully sin. So if you don't sin, you aren't under the law.

Do you have the power not to sin, or not?

Did Paul have this power? Of course I've Rom 7 in mind.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Could you explain Gal 5:18 for us?

I have already in current posts.

IF you are lead by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18.

If you are not lead by the Spirit, you will succumb to the lusts of the flesh, and sin.

The question for you and Bob S. is, do Christians walk after the flesh, or after the Spirit?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Hi Lady, it appears that you might be going off the deep end. Jesus lived under the law, something that we have no need to do. He fulfilled the law meaning He brought it to an end. "it is finished". Christians "walk" is much different than Jesus "walk" under the law. Jesus is God and God cannot sin. We are sinners by birth. Why do you think grace was introduced? We all fall short and I am afraid you are obsessed that you might sin if you do anything. Jesus has given us the gift of grace. He knows our hearts and I admonish you to not keep trying to swim upstream. It does nothing but wear a person out. Don't get me wrong, I am not talking about debauchery, just lighten up. Jesus was a party man. He has an abundant amount of grace to pass out to those who love Him.

The difference is, I don't have to swim upstream under my own power. I have the Holy Spirit in me, and He's a powerful speedboat! That is the difference in our concept of grace.

To you grace is, you don't have to worry about being holy, you are holy no matter what you do, all due to your invisibility cloak that covers your sin. A common teaching today, but Gnostic.

To me grace is the power of God to make me hate sin and He cleanses the sin in me and kills it outright to where I don't have to sin anymore, its power is gone so that I can walk holy. I don't need the law to do right. Jesus died so I might be filled with His Spirit, and do naturally what He would do.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?