Is it Biblical to separate the moral law from the other parts of the Law?

[Der Alte]

.... But what is the hypocrisy here? The 10 commandments are the covenant you believe is dead (Deuteronomy 4:13) and then you'll plant the sign and disregard the one about the Sabbath claiming it was done away with but then leaving it on your sign.

The Sabbath was given exclusively to the children of Israel.

Exodus 31:16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant.
Leviticus 24:8 This bread is to be set out before the LORD regularly, Sabbath after Sabbath, on behalf of the Israelites, as a lasting covenant.​

You don't know why God gave or did not give any commandment... He didn't tell us. He said catfish wasn't food, but you'll eat it anyway because you believe the God who changes not... changed. I don't... sorry... you won't convince me and I have no desire to convince you. Do as you believe and are convicted... sorry I chimed in. I will move on after this.

The dietary laws were abrogated by Jesus which was reiterated by Peter and Paul.

Matthew 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Mark 7:15-19
(15) Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them."
...
(18) "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them?
(19) For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
Acts 10:10-16 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (Act 15:29, 21:25)
1 Corinthians 8:8
(8) But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
1 Corinthians 10:25-26 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
Romans 14:2-3
(2) One person's faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
(3) The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.
Romans 14:14
(14) I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.
Romans 14:17
(17) For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
Romans 14:20
(20) Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.
1 Corinthians 10:25
(25) Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience,
Titus 4:3-5
(3) They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
(4) For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,
(5) because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.​

It is the heart of God... and it is eternal. What is sin is that which stands opposed to His character and authority... that which is permissible stands in harmony with His character and authority and the law is what tells us what is and is not sin. It is a sin for man to lay with a man as he would a woman... it is a sin to take the life of another with intent... it is sin to eat a bottom dwelling poop eater..... NOT because I said so, but because the God who does not change said so. So, this is how I live, and when and if I fail I have an advocate in Yeshua. But... if you love Him keep His commandments (and the words He spoke were not His but rather the Father's words) and like John said, the love of God is in keeping the commandments. We are not saved by our works, but the saved work. We don't obey to become a child of God, but the children of God obey their Father.
Be blessed.
Ken

Using vulgar expressions does not make a false statement true.

 

[Ken Rank]

The Sabbath was given exclusively to the children of Israel.

Exodus 31:16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant.
Leviticus 24:8 This bread is to be set out before the LORD regularly, Sabbath after Sabbath, on behalf of the Israelites, as a lasting covenant.​

Yes I know, but I believe that we are Israel. That the Jews are the "House of Judah" (Jer. 31, Heb. 8, Ezk. 37, etc.) and that the Christians are the "House of Israel" (same references). Now, you don't believe that and that's fine, I do. I respect your right to see it the way you do, I only ask the same. ​

The dietary laws were abrogated by Jesus which was reiterated by Peter and Paul.

(19) For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)​

First of all, nothing called "everlasting" is abrogated by anyone... otherwise, it isn't everlasting. Secondly, the famous "in saying this Jesus declared all foods clean" is NOT in the Greek. It has been added according to the bias of the translators of certain versions. It may appear in some obscure and modern manuscript, but the Received Texts do not contains that line. As for Peter, his vision was about PEOPLE. He said this... he specifically stated that God showed him in a vision how his vision was speaking about PEOPLE. God used something Peter understood as the picture, food... but the message wasn't about food anymore than the Pharaoh's dream was about cows.
​

Using vulgar expressions does not make a false statement true.

I have no clue what this is supposed to mean. As I told Jack... believe whatever you want. I am not trying to convince you to adhere to my beliefs. This is how I see it, this is how I live it... and if I am wrong this isn't rebellion, it is what I think the Lord has shown me. Thus, if I am wrong, He'll correct me in His time.

Peace.
Ken

 

[the old scribe]

Scriptures Ceremonial Law and Moral Law

Jesus spoke against the Jews who followed their traditions, rather than the Torah.
The distinction between:
ceremonial law (that which had to do with the ritual cleanness and rites of the tabernacle/temple)
moral laws (those that are based upon God's unchanging nature),

The distinction can be found throughout the Old and the New Testaments

(e.g., 1 Samuel 15:22; Psalm 51:16-17; Psalm 40:6-8; Psalm 51:16-17; Isaiah 1:11; Isaiah 66:3; Jeremiah 6:20; Hosea 6:6; Micah 6:8; Matthew 9:13; Matthew 12:2-8; Matthew 23:23; Mark 12:33; Luke 11:42; Colossians 2:16-17; Galatians 5:6; Hebrews 10:8; etc., etc.) The former were temporary, lasting only as long as the temple ritual was valid; the latter are eternally valid, because God's character never changes. Paul said that the rituals of the law were our schoolmaster, and were only needed until Christ came (Galatians3:19, 24).

1 Samuel 15:22 WEB
22 Samuel said, “Has Yahweh as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying Yahweh’s voice? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

Psalm 40:6-8 WEB
6 Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire.
You have opened my ears.
You have not required burnt offering and sin offering.
7 Then I said, “Behold, I have come.
It is written about me in the book in the scroll.
8 I delight to do your will, my God.
Yes, your law is within my heart.”

Psalm 51:16-17 WEB
16 For you don’t delight in sacrifice, or else I would give it.
You have no pleasure in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit.
A broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Isaiah 1:11 WEB
11 “What are the multitude of your sacrifices to me?”, says Yahweh.
“I have had enough of the burnt offerings of rams,
and the fat of fed animals.
I don’t delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs,
or of male goats.

Isaiah 66:3 WEB
3 He who kills an ox is as he who kills a man;
he who sacrifices a lamb, as he who breaks a dog’s neck;
he who offers an offering, as he who offers pig’s blood;
he who burns frankincense, as he who blesses an idol.
Yes, they have chosen their own ways,
and their soul delights in their abominations:

Jeremiah 6:20 WEB
20 To what purpose comes there to me frankincense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices pleasing to me.”

Hosea 6:6 WEB (verse 8 quoted in Matthew 12:7)
6 How shall I come before Yahweh,
and bow myself before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?
7 Will Yahweh be pleased with thousands of rams?
With tens of thousands of rivers of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my disobedience?
The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He has shown you, O man, what is good.
What does Yahweh require of you, but to act justly,
to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?

Micah 6:6-8 WEB (verse 6 cited in Matthew 9:13)
6 For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice;
and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 Will Yahweh be pleased with thousands of rams?
With tens of thousands of rivers of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my disobedience?
The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He has shown you, O man, what is good.
What does Yahweh require of you, but to act justly,
to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?


Matthew 9:13 WEB (cited from Hosea 6:6)
13 But you go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Matthew 12:2-8 WEB
2 But the Pharisees, when they saw it, said to him, “Behold, your disciples do what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.”
3 But he said to them, “Haven’t you read what David did, when he was hungry, and those who were with him; 4 how he entered into God’s house, and ate the show bread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the law, that on the Sabbath day, the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are guiltless? 6 But I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” (Verse 7 cited from Hosea 6:8)

Matthew 23:23 WEB (parallel to Luke 11:42)
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith. But you ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone.

Mark 12:33 WEB
33 and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Luke 11:42 WEB (parallel to Matthew 23:23)
42 But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, but you bypass justice and the love of God. You ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone.

Colossians 2:16-17 WEB
16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day, 17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s.

Galatians.5:6 WEB
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision amounts to anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith working through love.

Hebrews 10:8 WEB
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you didn’t desire, neither had pleasure in them” (those which are offered according to the law),

Then there is Acts 15.

 

[Ken Rank]

13 But you go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

I could go through your entire post, but it would be fruitless. Besides, I really don't care what conclusion you come to, I trust that God will make it obvious to us all in His timing.

But regarding the above... I generally scratch my head as to why this one is used to support the call for lawlessness? The word righteous... well, heck... just check out the online Webster's and the 1828 Webster's if you have a minute. Do you change your view if you find out that the verse you are using the claim we don't need the Law is actually stating that Messiah didn't come to call the ones already keeping God's law, but instead, the ones who were breaking it?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Scriptures Ceremonial Law and Moral Law

Jesus spoke against the Jews who followed their traditions, rather than the Torah.
The distinction between:
ceremonial law (that which had to do with the ritual cleanness and rites of the tabernacle/temple)
moral laws (those that are based upon God's unchanging nature),

The distinction can be found throughout the Old and the New Testaments

(e.g., 1 Samuel 15:22; Psalm 51:16-17; Psalm 40:6-8; Psalm 51:16-17; Isaiah 1:11; Isaiah 66:3; Jeremiah 6:20; Hosea 6:6; Micah 6:8; Matthew 9:13; Matthew 12:2-8; Matthew 23:23; Mark 12:33; Luke 11:42; Colossians 2:16-17; Galatians 5:6; Hebrews 10:8; etc., etc.) The former were temporary, lasting only as long as the temple ritual was valid; the latter are eternally valid, because God's character never changes. Paul said that the rituals of the law were our schoolmaster, and were only needed until Christ came (Galatians3:19, 24).

1 Samuel 15:22 WEB
22 Samuel said, “Has Yahweh as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying Yahweh’s voice? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

Psalm 40:6-8 WEB
6 Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire.
You have opened my ears.
You have not required burnt offering and sin offering.
7 Then I said, “Behold, I have come.
It is written about me in the book in the scroll.
8 I delight to do your will, my God.
Yes, your law is within my heart.”

Psalm 51:16-17 WEB
16 For you don’t delight in sacrifice, or else I would give it.
You have no pleasure in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit.
A broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Isaiah 1:11 WEB
11 “What are the multitude of your sacrifices to me?”, says Yahweh.
“I have had enough of the burnt offerings of rams,
and the fat of fed animals.
I don’t delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs,
or of male goats.

Isaiah 66:3 WEB
3 He who kills an ox is as he who kills a man;
he who sacrifices a lamb, as he who breaks a dog’s neck;
he who offers an offering, as he who offers pig’s blood;
he who burns frankincense, as he who blesses an idol.
Yes, they have chosen their own ways,
and their soul delights in their abominations:

Jeremiah 6:20 WEB
20 To what purpose comes there to me frankincense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices pleasing to me.”

Hosea 6:6 WEB (verse 8 quoted in Matthew 12:7)
6 How shall I come before Yahweh,
and bow myself before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?
7 Will Yahweh be pleased with thousands of rams?
With tens of thousands of rivers of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my disobedience?
The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He has shown you, O man, what is good.
What does Yahweh require of you, but to act justly,
to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?

Micah 6:6-8 WEB (verse 6 cited in Matthew 9:13)
6 For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice;
and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 Will Yahweh be pleased with thousands of rams?
With tens of thousands of rivers of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my disobedience?
The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He has shown you, O man, what is good.
What does Yahweh require of you, but to act justly,
to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?


Matthew 9:13 WEB (cited from Hosea 6:6)
13 But you go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Matthew 12:2-8 WEB
2 But the Pharisees, when they saw it, said to him, “Behold, your disciples do what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.”
3 But he said to them, “Haven’t you read what David did, when he was hungry, and those who were with him; 4 how he entered into God’s house, and ate the show bread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the law, that on the Sabbath day, the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are guiltless? 6 But I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” (Verse 7 cited from Hosea 6:8)

Matthew 23:23 WEB (parallel to Luke 11:42)
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith. But you ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone.

Mark 12:33 WEB
33 and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Luke 11:42 WEB (parallel to Matthew 23:23)
42 But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, but you bypass justice and the love of God. You ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone.

Colossians 2:16-17 WEB
16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day, 17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s.

Galatians.5:6 WEB
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision amounts to anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith working through love.

Hebrews 10:8 WEB
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you didn’t desire, neither had pleasure in them” (those which are offered according to the law),

Then there is Acts 15.

If traditions were good enough for Jesus, they are good enough for me.

For instance:
blessing BEFORE a meal, a tradition Jesus kept.
Cups of wine at His passover seder is another.
Fasting is yet another.
He also endorsed tithing dill, mint and cumin, a Pharasaic tradition. (Even Judaism admits that tithing of herb is not in the Torah:The tithing of herbs is from the Rabbins. - Mishnah, Maaseroth 1:1)

Let's be clear: Jesus observed/endorsed many Pharisaic traditions (tithing dill, mint and cumin, blessing BEFORE meals, fasting, manner of synagogue observance, etc) But it is also equally clear that he opposed some (hand washing before meals, dedicating money to God (korban) that should have been used for elderly parents...)

Paul uses Jewish traditions to illustrate Jesus. He encourages the Corinthian Gentiles (presumably) to keep Passover (1 Cor. 5:7; a service that is loaded with traditions.)

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I read my Bible in English and not in Hebrew and Greek. Nobody today speaks Hebrew and Greek.
...

It's like you are channeling tweets from Trump!

"Nobody today speaks Hebrew or Greek." SERIOUSLY???? "NOBODY TODAY SPEAKS HEBREW OR GREEK"

Did anyone tell the countries of Greece or Israel your brilliant observation??? Should I tell my priest and bishop that they speak dead languages to all of our parishioners all the time? Oh yes, I'll also inform my fellow chanters from Greece that we need to cut it out too. Ill also inform my former employer, which is based in Tel Aviv, that they shouldnt be speaking that dead language "Hebrew" anymore.

Reminds me to block myself from this website because of this kind of stupidity...

 

[Der Alte]

Yes I know, but I believe that we are Israel. That the Jews are the "House of Judah" (Jer. 31, Heb. 8, Ezk. 37, etc.) and that the Christians are the "House of Israel" (same references). Now, you don't believe that and that's fine, I do. I respect your right to see it the way you do, I only ask the same. ​

I might be convinced if you were to quote the scriptures you made reference to and show how they say that gentiles are the house of Israel.

First of all, nothing called "everlasting" is abrogated by anyone... otherwise, it isn't everlasting.

Where are the dietary laws said to be everlasting? If Jesus is God, as I believe He is, then God can abrogate anything He chooses.

Secondly, the famous "in saying this Jesus declared all foods clean" is NOT in the Greek. It has been added according to the bias of the translators of certain versions. It may appear in some obscure and modern manuscript, but the Received Texts do not contains that line.

You have been very badly misinformed the words καθαριζον παντα τα βρωματα/"cleansing all the foods" are in all the manuscripts. The false claim that the words were interpolated later has been foisted upon us by false teachers pushing their agenda and many people believe it without checking for themselves.

As for Peter, his vision was about PEOPLE. He said this... he specifically stated that God showed him in a vision how his vision was speaking about PEOPLE. God used something Peter understood as the picture, food... but the message wasn't about food anymore than the Pharaoh's dream was about cows.

Peter evidently understood the vision meant if God made all foods clean, as the vision clearly stated three times, that certainly extended to making all gentiles clean, as well. Peter never once said that the vision was not about food. Also Paul certainly understood that the dietary laws, if not abrogated, did not extend to gentile Christians as shown in all the scriptures I quoted which have been conveniently ignored.

I have no clue what this is supposed to mean. As I told Jack... believe whatever you want. I am not trying to convince you to adhere to my beliefs. This is how I see it, this is how I live it... and if I am wrong this isn't rebellion, it is what I think the Lord has shown me. Thus, if I am wrong, He'll correct me in His time.

The unnecessary vulgar phrase was "it is sin to eat a bottom dwelling poop eater."
.....While the vision clearly said "all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air" had been cleansed three times that does not rob people of common sense. The fact that something God created is no longer ceremonially unclean does not mean that a person is prevented from choosing not eat something they consider unhealthy..
.....I'm not trying to convince you of anything, shortly after I joined this forum more than 15 years ago I came to the conclusion that the hard core defenders of heterodox beliefs are almost impossible to reach. My purpose is to expose the fallacies in their arguments lest they mislead the unwary, new to the faith, etc.

 

[Der Alte]

...
Paul uses Jewish traditions to illustrate Jesus. He encourages the Corinthian Gentiles (presumably) to keep Passover (1 Cor. 5:7; a service that is loaded with traditions.)

Your proof text says exactly the opposite.

1 Corinthians 5:7 Clean out the old yeast so that you may be a new batch of dough — you are, in fact, without yeast. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.​

This verses appears to say that the annual Passover is the old yeast which must be cleaned out because Christ our Passover has been sacrificed thus we do not repeat that every year.

 

[ClementofA]

"First of all, nothing called "everlasting" is abrogated by anyone... otherwise, it isn't everlasting."

Where are the dietary laws said to be everlasting? If Jesus is God, as I believe He is, then God can abrogate anything He chooses.

Then even those who believe in everlasting punishment can hope for universal salvation, just like the Catholic church does.

 

[Der Alte]

"First of all, nothing called "everlasting" is abrogated by anyone... otherwise, it isn't everlasting."
Then even those who believe in everlasting punishment can hope for universal salvation, just like the Catholic church does.

Still haven't seen where the dietary laws are said to be everlasting. Since you have chosen this specious argument can you show me where Jesus said that everlasting punishment was abrogated or mitigated?

 

[ClementofA]

Still haven't seen where the dietary laws are said to be everlasting. Since you have chosen this specious argument can you show me where Jesus said that everlasting punishment was abrogated or mitigated?

How is it specious? What does anything Jesus said have to do with this? You said:

"Where are the dietary laws said to be everlasting? If Jesus is God, as I believe He is, then God can abrogate anything He chooses."

Then even those who believe in everlasting punishment can hope for universal salvation, just like the Catholic church does. Because, according to you, God can abrogate anything He chooses. That includes everlasting punishment.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

OK, and I can provide you with more than one author that believes (or believed) that Yeshua was a homosexual or married to Mary Magdalene. That doesn't make it correct.

I read a short article that made some good points in regards to the three fold nature of the Law. I am hoping this book does so, as well. If it does not, I will let you know. I am not one to believe just anything if there is no biblical support for it. As for people believing wrong things about Jesus: Well, I believe people are motivated by their own sins or personal life to think wrong things about Him.

I think your issue here is that if the Bible does not specifically talk about such a thing, then it cannot be true. Well, something is true regardless if the Bible talks about a particular thing or not. Grass is green regardless if the Bible talks about it or not. The point I am getting at is that I can identify certain truths within God's Word whether the Bible labels them in such a way is not all that important. Truth is still truth.

The bible does NOT differentiate.

The Bible does not talk about cars, but we know cars exist.
Nowhere does the Bible say it is wrong to study the different aspects of truth within God's Laws.

You may not realize this or not, but I believe all of God's laws are moral laws at their core. Any Law of God is something that guides us into God's will and good ways. But to ignore that certain laws express an additional truth is to simply ignore truth for no good reason. I know Sabbath keeping and baptism are primarily ceremonial laws. Yes, at the heart they are moral laws because they are commands that come from God. They are things that God wants us to do. But to ignore that they are ceremonial when in fact they are ceremonial is to put on horse blinders for no good reason. I can recognize a truth and it is not wrong to do that.

The only time it does is when it gives commandments for specific purposes or people for purposes. For example, we have commandments specific for the Levitical priests... which I am not one of therefore those commandments do not pertain to me.

Actually, the whole of the commands in Old Covenant does not apply to you. For even the moral laws (like do not commit adultery, etc.) were attached with death penalties if you disobeyed them. This is not the case under the New Testament or the New Covenant.

So what is ceremonial, Jason?

Again, while all laws or commands from God are moral at their core, the primary action of the command determines what kind of Law or Command it is. So any laws or commands that specifically involve you in partaking of some kind of ceremony or ritual is a ceremonial law.

Does your church tithe? Many do.. and that would VERY MUCH fall into the ceremonial section, if there were one.

No. Tithing is simply about giving. Giving so as to help others is a love issue or a moral issue. Tithing (Which is an OT command that is no longer valid anymore) would fall under the moral laws section. For it would fall under loving the brethren because tithing went to Levites back in the Old Testament. Tithes went to Levities so they can dedicate their lives completely to God in helping others to make sacrifices for God and to help others worship God. You are helping the worship of God and His people by tithing if you were an OT saint back in the day. But after Christ's death, there is no more tithing laws anymore because there is no more Levitical priesthood. Jesus is our heavenly high priest now.

The New Testament Law on giving is the following command.

"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." (2 Corinthians 9:7).

Look, I don't care what you believe

Well, I care what people believe because proper belief and or faith determines a person's good standing with God or not. It begins with a broken heart and a proper understanding of God's Word (Which leads to proper and righteous action).

but you will be like many Christians who declare the law to be dead (making us lawless, but I digress)

Not at all. I believe the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). I believe believers primarily look to the commands in New Covenant to obey God and they do not look to the Old Covenant to obey Him. For the Old Covenant commands are obsolete (as a whole). They are no more. We are under a New Covenant with New Commands.

Oh, and yes; I believe not keeping certain laws under the New Covenant is a salvation issue. For example: Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). John says if anyone hates their brother they are like a murderer and no eternal life abides within a murderer (1 John 3:15).

and then plant a 10 commandment sign in your front yard as if applicable for today.

I roll my eyes whenever somebody says that all we need to do is obey the 10 Commandments. For one, there are 613 commands in the Old Testament. Two, the Old Covenant as a whole or package is no longer binding to believers. Yes, many of the moral laws have appeared to have been carried on over into the New Covenant. I believe Paul speaks of this when He says that we fulfill the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law by loving others and by walking after the Spirit. This would be the moral laws from the Old Covenant. Moral laws are any laws that a person would instinctively know to do that is good and right without a specific command telling them to do that. It's love, my friend; And it doesn't get any better than that.

But what is the hypocrisy here? The 10 commandments are the covenant you believe is dead (Deuteronomy 4:13) and then you'll plant the sign and disregard the one about the Sabbath claiming it was done away with but then leaving it on your sign.

I believe only 9 out of the 10 Commandments apply to believers today; And even then, these moral laws are not attached with capital punishment if you were to disobey them. Believers today are not set out to hand out death sentences to other believers if they disobey certain laws of God anymore. The Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

You don't know why God gave or did not give any commandment... He didn't tell us. He said catfish wasn't food, but you'll eat it anyway because you believe the God who changes not... changed. I don't... sorry... you won't convince me and I have no desire to convince you. Do as you believe and are convicted... sorry I chimed in. I will move on after this.

It is super obvious that God's laws have changed. Believers do not sacrifice animals in a temple anymore. Such laws are no longer valid because Jesus is our Heavenly High Priest and Passover Lamb. Peter was told to eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of OT Law). Paul says if any man seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit them nothing. So yeah. Going back to the Old Law is not good. We are New Covenant believers and not Old Covenant believers. This does not mean we ignore the Old Testament. The OT helps to point us to Christ and there are many truths within the OT that lines up with the NT.

It is the heart of God... and it is eternal. What is sin is that which stands opposed to His character and authority... that which is permissible stands in harmony with His character and authority and the law is what tells us what is and is not sin. It is a sin for man to lay with a man as he would a woman... it is a sin to take the life of another with intent... it is sin to eat a bottom dwelling poop eater..... NOT because I said so, but because the God who does not change said so. So, this is how I live, and when and if I fail I have an advocate in Yeshua. But... if you love Him keep His commandments (and the words He spoke were not His but rather the Father's words) and like John said, the love of God is in keeping the commandments.

I agree that if we truly love God, we will keep His commandments. But this would be the commandments in the New Testament and not the Old Testament now.

We are not saved by our works, but the saved work. We don't obey to become a child of God, but the children of God obey their Father.

Be blessed.
Ken

I see works as evidence or proof that God or Christ lives within a person. I see God or Christ as the source of a person's salvation. If they are not abiding in God or Christ, they have no salvation or life. A believer surrenders to God and the good works of the Lord flows through them. If a believer does evil and says they know God, they are a liar and the truth (Christ) is not in them (1 John 2:4).

James says faith without works is a dead kind of faith (James 2:17).
A dead faith cannot access the free gift of God's saving grace.


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[Bible Highlighter]

How is it specious? What does anything Jesus said have to do with this? You said:

"Where are the dietary laws said to be everlasting? If Jesus is God, as I believe He is, then God can abrogate anything He chooses."

Then even those who believe in everlasting punishment can hope for universal salvation, just like the Catholic church does. Because, according to you, God can abrogate anything He chooses. That includes everlasting punishment.

The word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”


Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php


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[SkyWriting]

Is it Biblical to separate the moral law from the other parts of the Law (like ceremonial laws, etc.)?

And discuss.


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All laws are codified parts of morality.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All laws are codified parts of morality.

Yes, I have come to believe that all of God's laws are moral at their core. But certain laws have different functions or truths within them that distinguish them from others. When I say that a law is moral, I say that it is exclusively moral. For example: Loving your neighbor is a moral law. Nobody needs to tell you to do this in order for you to do something like this. It is doing what is good and right. A ceremonial law is something that God tells you to do specifically that involves some kind of ritual or ceremony type observance. A person would not know of the ceremony of baptism if they were not told by God specifically to do it. Even the OT Laws on tithing (that are no longer valid anymore) are actually moral laws because it is a Law about giving. Yes, it talks about giving a certain percentage, but at the heart or core of the command of tithing is love. It is about helping and loving others with one's possessions.


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[SkyWriting]

Yes, I have come to believe that all of God's laws are moral at their core. But certain laws have different functions or truths within them that distinguish them from others. When I say that a law is moral, I say that it is exclusively moral. For example: Loving your neighbor is a moral law. Nobody needs to tell you to do this in order for you to do something like this. It is doing what is good and right. A ceremonial law is something that God tells you to do specifically that involves some kind of ritual or ceremony type observance.


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I don't believe there are any of those.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't believe there are any of those.

The Old Testament commands are no longer valid.
Believers today obey the New Testament Commands and not the OT Commands.
Do you believe in following the New Testament?
As for the distinction of God's laws: So you don't believe baptism is a ceremony?


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[SkyWriting]

The Old Testament commands are no longer valid.
Believers today obey the New Testament Commands and not the OT Commands.
As for the distinction of God's laws: So you don't believe baptism is a ceremony?


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The performance in the church is a likeness of the spiritual baptism.
If not every believer gets the chance to get dampened in front of others
then it is just play acting. Fun, but not important.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's like you are channeling tweets from Trump!

"Nobody today speaks Hebrew or Greek." SERIOUSLY???? "NOBODY TODAY SPEAKS HEBREW OR GREEK"

Did anyone tell the countries of Greece or Israel your brilliant observation??? Should I tell my priest and bishop that they speak dead languages to all of our parishioners all the time? Oh yes, I'll also inform my fellow chanters from Greece that we need to cut it out too. Ill also inform my former employer, which is based in Tel Aviv, that they shouldnt be speaking that dead language "Hebrew" anymore.

Reminds me to block myself from this website because of this kind of stupidity...

Most Christians I talk with on forums who say they study the Hebrew and Greek also do not know how to speak and write these languages for themselves as a part of a culture they grew up in. There is a difference between knowing a language intimately as a part of one's culture and toying around with doing Hebrew and Greek word studies with no Hebrew or Greek professionals to correct them.

But it is true. Nobody speaks and write Biblical Greek today like Paul did (and or other early followers of Christ did). Biblical Greek is different than Modern Greek. They are similar but they are not exact. The same is true with ancient Hebrew. Today, most who do Hebrew and Greek word studies do not know how to even speak and write Hebrew and Greek. They act like they know these languages when in reality, they do not know them.


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[Bible Highlighter]

The performance in the church is a likeness of the spiritual baptism.
If not every believer gets the chance to get dampened in front of others
then it is just play acting. Fun, but not important.

That really doesn't answer the questions I asked, though.
Please go back and answer my questions in Post #97.


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