Does God Try His Best to Save Everyone?

Neogaia777

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Anyhow, if you are to be or you become one of his, by lessons through eventual consequences and maybe some suffering, but are currently not, or you were not at some point in time in your life, know that he already knew you would come to a point of becoming one of his, and because of that, back then, you had a lot, A LOT of God's grace...

Just think how much you got away with in your youth, or before you came to truly believing in God, and now having a personal relationship before that, just think about how many times you should have got in trouble and be punished, but weren't or was not... How many mistakes you were allowed to make and freely get away with for a while, some a long while...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Anyhow, if you are to be or you become one of his, by lessons through eventual consequences and maybe some suffering, but are currently not, or you were not at some point in time in your life, know that he already knew you would come to a point of becoming one of his, and because of that, back then, you had a lot, A LOT of God's grace...

Just think how much you got away with in your youth, or before you came to truly believing in God, and now having a personal relationship before that, just think about how many times you should have got in trouble and be punished, but weren't or was not... How many mistakes you were allowed to make and freely get away with for a while, some a long while...

God Bless!
Don't get me wrong, unbelievers predestined to continue as unbelievers get away with a lot too, the only difference is, there not covered by the grace of God, not being one of his, and if there is no retribution for what they get away with in this life, there may be for them, in the next... Not so for those that are his...

God Bless!
 
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Strong in Him

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Don't get me wrong, unbelievers predestined to continue as unbelievers get away with a lot too, the only difference is, there not covered by the grace of God, not being one of his, and if there is no retribution for what they get away with in this life, there may be for them, in the next...

Why would God create someone and then predestine them never to know him?

And if God already decided that they would never know him and not be saved, why would he punish them for not doing something that he had already decided they would not be able to do?
 
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Neogaia777

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Why would God create someone and then predestine them never to know him?

And if God already decided that they would never know him and not be saved, why would he punish them for not doing something that he had already decided they would not be able to do?
To the first, IDK, possibly for the purposes to "train up" those chosen to be his, and get into heaven with a testimony...

To the rest, you have to know what "hell" really is, which is, in short any other reality besides heaven, like this reality, for example...

God, the Father does what he wants with his own things, one vessel for an honorable use, another or others for dishonorable use, the dishonorable ones for a greater purpose with the honorable ones, till that purpose is complete...

God Bless!
 
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Why is it an abominable view?

For several reasons. First, such a view makes God the potential Savior of all without exception and the actual Savior of no one. In your view, Christ didn't save you. You see salvation as that of a man drowning out in the ocean whereupon Christ throws him a life preserver. Christ's act of throwing the life preserver wouldn't save anyone. You believe that the work of Christ is powerless, in and of itself, to save a single person. In your view, it isn't until the drowning man lays hold of the life preserver that Christ's actions are of any benefit. In that case, Christ didn't save you. You saved yourself by laying hold of the life preserver. But you will say, "Wait, I didn't throw the life preserver to myself." Surely not. However, you cannot discount the fact that neither the life preserver, nor Christ's work of throwing it to you, is what saved you. The most you could say is that you and Christ worked together to save you and, therefore, you deserve as much, if not more, credit for your personal salvation than Christ. The glaring hole in this analogy, so often a parallel to modern Pelagianism, i.e,. mainstream evangelical Christianity, is that it attributes to the one being rescued some level of participatory capability. It simply isn't in accord with the Gospel account of redemption. The Bible gives a perfectly good parallel of the process of rebirth. It is the story of Lazarus. Like Lazarus, natural man is incapable of responding to the call to life. Such an invitation simply falls on deaf ears. It is not until Christ gives life that we are able to respond. A better analogy, using the man in the water is as follows: A man has fallen in the water and has drowned. He is dead. Christ throws a life preserver around him and pulls him in. Then, Christ breathes life into the dead man. That is a parallel to the biblical account of rebirth. Secondly, and maybe more importantly, you speak of salvation as if it is the byproduct of an agreement between God and man, God promising everlasting life if man meets the conditions required to acquire said reward. The problem with this is, as I said, that it inserts man into the equation in an unbiblical place. God the Father purposed the salvation of His people. God the Son accomplished the salvation of His people. And, God the Holy Spirit applies the salvation of His people. This was a covenant between the Godhead. Man is the passive recipient of the work of the Godhead. You have man being an equal arbiter of the conditions of salvation when, in fact, salvation is of God alone.

Scripture says, "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus".

Exactly my point. The gift of God is eternal life. Nowhere does Scripture reveal that the gift of God is "the possibility of eternal life." You, and others before you, have tried to apply some twisted meaning to this. You say stuff like, "You could buy me a valuable diamond ring; if I say thank you but leave it in its box, it won't be enjoyed by me and seen by others. And have I really received the gift that you chose and bought for me?" Now, if your position were that you could give the gift back, well, that is a different discussion but still acknowledges receipt. This idea that your choice to ignore the gift, somehow, means the gift wasn't received is ludicrous, not to mention unbiblical. Again, God does not "offer" you salvation, nor does Scripture make this claim anywhere. Additionally, the primary reason for your salvation isn't about you, even if you benefit from it. You are saved to bring glory to God.

I didn't say that; Scripture does.

I know you didn't say what Scripture says. That's what I'm pointing out.

Jesus died for all.

Well, you can keep saying it but it doesn't make it less inaccurate. Please be aware, the idea of a limited atonement is not a reference to it's value. On the contrary, the sacrifice of Christ has inestimable value. Had God purposed it, it would have been sufficient to atone for the sins of all without exception, as the atonement was a work of supererogation. No, it is the intent of the atonement that is being addressed by the limit. The question, as Sproul so eloquently puts it, is "Did God simply send Christ to the cross to make salvation possible, or did God, from all eternity, have a plan of salvation by which, according to the riches of His grace and His eternal election, He designed the atonement to ensure the salvation of His people?" Depending on how we answer that question, we are then forced to address the issue of the efficacy of the atonement. If the former, then the plan and purpose of Christ's redemptive work had in its design the salvation of no one in particular. In essence, the efficacy of such an atonement is determined by the will of the creation, not the plan and purpose of the Creator. This, of course, flies directly in the face of Scripture and sets the will of the creation over the will of the Creator. If, however, we subscribe to the latter proposition, we can find comfort in the sovereignty of God, knowing that, as Scripture tells us, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6:37-39).

I don't believe, and I am sure that Scripture never says, that Jesus said, "o.k, I know this person ill believe in me, so I'll die for him; that person will never have faith, so I won't die for them."

You're right. Scripture never says that. That is just another form of works based salvation, making faith a meritorious work. The problem with your understanding of this stems from your lack of understanding, or acknowledgement, as to the source of faith. You speak of faith in God as if someone just wakes up one day and makes the decision to have faith in God. It doesn't work like that. Faith is not part of natural man's intrinsic nature. He has no faith in God, he desires no faith in God, and he is incapable of generating faith in God. He neither desires to be a child of God (for reasons that are not in the interest of self preservation) nor seeks after God. Faith is something that God adds to our constituent nature. If He doesn't add it, we don't have it. Pure and simple. Speaking of this in a manner where God is looking to see who has faith as the determining reason He saves someone is nonsense. The only people that will have faith are the people to whom God gives it and, if He gives it, He gives it for a purpose. That purpose is, ultimately, that they would be redeemed and spend eternity in His loving embrace.

It is clear that Christ died for sinners, and Scripture makes it very clear that we ALL sin.

All for whom Christ died were/are sinners. Not all sinners are those for whom Christ died. Again, you speak of the death of Christ, in whom all things live and move and have their being, as if it is of no consequence. Do you honestly think Christ would bear the burden of a person's sins only to have them go to hell? For that matter, what are they condemned for if Christ paid the price for their sins? Claiming that the choice of the creation to reject the benefit of Christ's atoning sacrifice somehow makes that work of atonement completely ineffective is nonsense, and terribly blasphemous. Not to mention, it presupposes the unbiblical notion that dying for someone's sins is all Christ does to bring their redemption to fruition. Were that the case, no one would be transformed. We would all continue to live as if there were no God. The truth of God's mercy is that He not only justifies us by the work of Christ, He places within us a new nature, a nature that desires to obey Him, a nature that seeks to do His will. In fact, God Himself indwells us and continues to make intercession on our behalf.

If someone doesn't believe in Christ, accept his atoning death on the cross and go to him for eternal life, they don't have salvation and eternal life. So - for them - the effect is the same as if Christ never died;

And yet, He did die. And according to you, He died on their behalf. Don't you see how unbiblical such a notion is? You are contending that by merely choosing to reject the "gift of salvation," the creation makes the death of Christ of no value. Setting aside that such a notion, as distasteful as it is, stems from the equally unbiblical notion that the catalyst for the appropriation of salvation by all who do end up saved is their work of acceptance, you have literally subjugated the efficacy of the Creator's work of atonement to the whims of man. How you utter such contempt for Christ is beyond me.

That doesn't mean that they never had a chance to turn to Christ, believe and receive. When they meet God, they won't be able to say, "well it's not my fault; you had already decided that I wasn't one of your 'elect'."

Chance. Such a nonsense word in a discussion about God's sovereign government of history. Yes SIH, the person who is dead in his trespasses and sins, the person that sees God as the enemy and His Word as foolishness, the person who Scripture plainly states is in bondage to his carnality and, thus, incapable of submitting to God, has a "chance to turn to Christ." You're absolutely right. And that "chance" is a 0% chance because doing so is in direct opposition to their nature.

So can you explain to me then how that works? Seriously; I've never understood what people mean by this.

Sure.

Does it mean, as I've just said, that God says to himself, "those people believe/will one day believe in me; Jesus has died/will die for them. But these people will never believe, so therefore Jesus hasn't died for them."

No.

Does it mean that God created all people in his image, but has already chosen some of the people that he created to be sent to hell - he made them but he deliberately doesn't want to give them a chance to know him?

It's not about a "chance" SIH. Unless God intervenes, no one has a "chance." Chance is a non thing. It's a made up thing. It's a mathematical term used to define probability. There's no such thing as chance in a discussion about the redemption of man, unless you're acknowledging that, apart from God, we all have a 0% chance of coming to a saving knowledge of Christ. To understand why this is, you have to start off with a proper understanding of fallen, unregenerate man, i.e., carnal man. Carnal man is at enmity with God. He does not seek God. He does not understand God. He does not love God. He does not desire to serve God. And to make matters worse, he has no desire to change his state of enmity with God. He views God as the enemy. He despises God's Word. It is in this state that man finds himself when God changes man's disposition. His monergistic work of regeneration changes the nature of man such that he, now, willingly embraces God. He seeks after the will of God. He desires to serve God in obedience and supplication. He loves God. When God changes the nature of a person, He changes their entire spiritual polarity. Where they were once aligned against Him, now they embrace Him as their Lord and Savior. It is important to remember that God does not do this because He sees something of intrinsic value in the object of His mercy. On the contrary, He extends to them this great mercy because He loves them and as objects of His love, they are blessed with His grace.

Not everyone, not yet.

Logically, no. Chronologically, yes. Christ will not die on the Cross again. His work of redemption is complete. The application of its merits, however, are not fulfilled. We live in a linear fashion and some, I imagine, of those for whom Christ died haven't even been born yet.

Why command us to preach the Gospel to all if God has already chosen only a few to be saved? Why not just pray, "Lord, please point out the people who will be saved, and I'll preach to them"? Come to that, why preach at all? If God has already decided that he will save them; why does he need us?

Simply put, because the method that God has chosen to use is through His creation. Obviously God could gather His sheep without the need to share the Gospel, if that's what He chose. He simply didn't choose to do it that way. As for the reason we preach to all without distinction, though God knows who His elect are, He has chosen not to reveal that to us. Who knows, maybe having information like that would cause us to completely ignore the needs of non-believers. A quote often, and errantly, attributed to Spurgeon is If the Lord had put a yellow stripe down the backs of the elect, I’d go up and down the street lifting up shirt tails, finding out who had the yellow stripe, and then I’d give them the gospel. But God didn’t do it that way. He told me to preach the gospel to every creature that ‘whosoever will may come.'” Jesus says, “and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” Either way, we are commanded to spread the Good News to all without distinction so that is what we should do.

THAT'S the problem - the belief that some have been elected by God to believe and receive salvation, whereas others have been created by God and left to their own devices, which obviously means hell.

I don't believe that.

Well, that's not a problem. That might be a problem for you. The Bible clearly teaches election. Now, you may disagree with my understanding of biblical election but you can't discount it altogether.

Someone who is spiritually dead in their sins and separated from God may still be physically alive, capable of walking into a church and responding to the Gospel - drawn there by the Holy Spirit who has been ministering to them.

Sorry, but no. The Bible is also explicit on this point. One who is dead in their trespasses and sins is incapable of responding in faith to the Gospel message. Faith in God is not part of their nature and, as such, they cannot respond to God in faith.

I do not believe that God created some people knowing that he would refuse to be their Father and have nothing to do with them.

You say "refuse to be their Father" as if they're coming to Him in faith and He's saying "Nope." God doesn't refuse anyone. What you seem to be having a problem with is understanding that no one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws them. If the Spirit draws them, they come. If they come, Christ will raise them up on the last day:

John 6:37-39
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Okay, follow me here:

  • ALL that the Father gives to Him come.
  • WHOEVER comes won't be cast out.
  • ALL THAT ARE GIVEN be raised up.
See the progression?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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So, basically, God tries, but if after the Creator of all that is created tries really, really hard, they're still not persuaded, then He's like, well, I tried...but, I'm done trying.

Essentially, you're contending that God fails. Right?

Why do you have a problem with that? It is scriptural. Take Cain as an example:

Gen 4:5-7 But in Cain and his offering he had no pleasure. And Cain was angry and his face became sad. And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

Cain had a choice, if he would do well he would receive honour. If he chose to do wrong sin was waiting for him. After this Cain choose to kill Able rather than respect God.

Did God fail? No He told Cain how to overcome, Cain choose to ignore God, Cain chose sin over honor for God. Cain ended in sin not because God did not give him a chance, no Cain choose sin over God.

God is not a lier, Cain could have had honour - but due to Cains choice he seperate himself from God.
 
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Undeserved, unearned, long suffering kindness and nearly infinite patience toward those he favors as well...

Okay. All that falls under the favor of God so it seems like semantics but, whatever floats your boat.

But, if a person does not, or does not yet believe, can they have the grace of God on or in their lives...?

Matt 5:44, 45
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Of course God is gracious to all people. The grace which leads to redemption, however, He bestows only upon His elect.

Do those who are predestined to not believe and are not his, do they get the grace of God...?

Unmerited favor? Of course. See above.

Or just simply not a definition of grace, but what you believe about it...?

I believe God is gracious. I believe He is gracious to all people without exception. The continued existence of all people, but especially those He prepared beforehand for destruction, evidences His longsuffering kindness. I believe that He reserves the grace of redemption exclusively to His elect.

How's that?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Jimmy: "I do not believe that God has ever intended to save all people"

So you reject Peter and Paul's teaching:
"The Lord...is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:10)."
Peter is speaking not of God's desire, but of His unwillingness for any to perish. So wouldn't an omnipotent God be able to execute His will?

"...we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe (1 Timothy 4;10)."
God is the Savior of all people, but "especially" (i. e. more immediately) of believers.

Jimmy: "If God desires all men to be saved, why aren't they? Is it that He isn't trying hard enough?"

You are not posing the right question: If God wants to save everyone and we reject Him in this life, why can't His love pursue us in the next life? Do you want me to quote and explain the blizzard of NT texts that imply a 2nd chance for deceased sinners?

I need at save a doc to reply to the most basic errors and oversights in these two verses because evidently, they are the 2 of 3 verses that 90% of the Christians builds his doctrine of soteriology on.

For now, scroll back and find the other 50 times I've answered this question.
 
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Why do you have a problem with that? It is scriptural.

No where, and I mean absolutely NO WHERE in Scripture does it say that God fails. You said, "God tries to save all." Now, either you believe that He is successful, and everyone will be saved, or, you think God fails to achieve what He tries to do. This flies DIRECTLY in the face of Scripture. There is no such thing as a sovereign God that "tries" to do something. "Trying" indicates the possibility of not accomplishing the goal. God does ALL His will in Heaven and on earth and none can stay His hand or say, "What have you done?" (Dan 4:35)

Take Cain as an example:

Gen 4:5-7 But in Cain and his offering he had no pleasure. And Cain was angry and his face became sad. And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

Cain had a choice, if he would do well he would receive honour. If he chose to do wrong sin was waiting for him. After this Cain choose to kill Able rather than respect God.

Did God fail? No He told Cain how to overcome, Cain choose to ignore God, Cain chose sin over honor for God. Cain ended in sin not because God did not give him a chance, no Cain choose sin over God.

God is not a lier, Cain could have had honour - but due to Cains choice he seperate himself from God.

I have no clue how this was supposed to be an example of your previous point. This is not talking about salvation. You said, "God tries to save all." That's about as straightforward as it gets. So, you are either a universalist or you think God's a failure. That's it. Those are your only two choices. Or, well, I guess you could backpedal and claim that God doesn't actually try to save all people. That would probably be your best bet.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I think you were fishing for a theology to filter the passage. Something to reflect the "all kinds of men" thing.

I doesn't have to say that. It's hyperbole. We all know it when we see it, and we know it because of the mountain of texts which say otherwise. Keep hanging your theology on a misinterpreted verse, though.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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No where, and I mean absolutely NO WHERE in Scripture does it say that God fails. You said, "God tries to save all." Now, either you believe that He is successful, and everyone will be saved, or, you think God fails to achieve what He tries to do. This flies DIRECTLY in the face of Scripture. There is no such thing as a sovereign God that "tries" to do something. "Trying" indicates the possibility of not accomplishing the goal. God does ALL His will in Heaven and on earth and none can stay His hand or say, "What have you done?" (Dan 4:35)



I have no clue how this was supposed to be an example of your previous point. This is not talking about salvation. You said, "God tries to save all." That's about as straightforward as it gets. So, you are either a universalist or you think God's a failure. That's it. Those are your only two choices. Or, well, I guess you could backpedal and claim that God doesn't actually try to save all people. That would probably be your best bet.

Answer me this: Did God try to stop Cain from killing Able? He did. And He God failed to prevent Cain. God does fail. Yes.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Paul says to pray for all men, I do that.

7.6 billion prayers per day. Or, is it weekly? You do have a lot of time on your hands! (if all always means, everyone, without exception)
 
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Neogaia777

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Okay. All that falls under the favor of God so it seems like semantics but, whatever floats your boat.



Matt 5:44, 45
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Of course God is gracious to all people. The grace which leads to redemption, however, He bestows only upon His elect.



Unmerited favor? Of course. See above.



I believe God is gracious. I believe He is gracious to all people without exception. The continued existence of all people, but especially those He prepared beforehand for destruction, evidences His longsuffering kindness. I believe that He reserves the grace of redemption exclusively to His elect.

How's that?
Pretty good... But, not "perfect" (joke)...

How is God gracious to those who who he does not save for heaven, but sends to hell...? Wait, are you saying that only the elect are saved...? (go to (be in) heaven?)
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Why do you have a problem with that? It is scriptural. Take Cain as an example:

Gen 4:5-7 But in Cain and his offering he had no pleasure. And Cain was angry and his face became sad. And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

Cain had a choice, if he would do well he would receive honour. If he chose to do wrong sin was waiting for him. After this Cain choose to kill Able rather than respect God.

Did God fail? No He told Cain how to overcome, Cain choose to ignore God, Cain chose sin over honor for God. Cain ended in sin not because God did not give him a chance, no Cain choose sin over God.

God is not a lier, Cain could have had honour - but due to Cains choice he seperate himself from God.

Yes. Any person would do well to obey God's was. Adam & Eve would have done well to have obeyed God, and you and I as well.

Yes, Cain could have had honor, if he COULD have obeyed God, but we was both unwilling and unable.

Now, I wonder, given your position on this text, why iy is that you think Jesus went to the cross. He certain didn't have to, because they are certain enough people to fill Heaven who do obey God and be honored.

Cain, and all of mankind after him choose to ignore God. We have ALL (without exception) gone astray. we have all one astray. People aren't sinners because they sin. They sin because they're sinners.

We need saving. I'm amazed at how many times I have to say that to Christians. . .
 
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How is God gracious to those who who he does not save for heaven, but sends to hell...?

He gives them existence. He maintains their existence. He creates them to bring about His sovereign plan for history. He blesses them all throughout their life.

Wait, are you saying that only the elect are saved...? (go to (be in) heaven?)

Absolutely.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I think you meant billion.

Thanks. Still bleary-eyed.

Had a nightmare last night. I was in Hell, on CF, and I had to keep replying to posters who misread 1 Timothy 2:4 - for ALL eternity!
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Let me thank you for revealing that your perspective on God is one I can ignore without reservation.

Ignore? Lets go back to the scripture. Firstly God is no lier. Is God a lier?

Gen 4:5-7 If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

Lets translate:

Cain if YOU, yes you Cain, chose to do well, live your life my way, God's way. Then I will honour you as I have Able. But if you Cain, do wrong, if you choose wrong, then Satan is waiting to have you. So Cain choose this day whom you will serve, me or sin.

God would have honored Cain as he did Able, but Cain choose sin. God did not choose sin for Cain.

You said God' can't fail, of course God can fail. He failed to make Cain righteous. CAin choose sin.
 
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