Seventh day observance compulsory?

[Bob S]

17 Think not that I am come to dfestroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

fulfill means to bring to an end.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Torah were the words of the covenant and Torah included all 613 commands from God to Israel. If we follow your reasoning that heaven and earth has not passed then you, as a SDA, are lacking in your duty to God. The only things from the book of the law that you believe has any meaning is the unclean laws, tithing laws and the laws concerning loving the neighbor. Jesus said not one jot or one tittle.

Actually "till heaven and earth pass" is a metaphor. Jesus used it to emphasize its importance to Israel.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus under the law was speaking to those who were also under the law. Remember what the Father said to Israel before He gave them Torah, EX19:5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

Then God gave them the 10 plus all that is in the book of the law.

Jesus fulfilled, with his death, the ceremonial law that he spoke to Moses. IE verse 17

Please do not through verses out that do not mean what you are trying to prove. Jesus said THE LAW and that was not just the part that He dictated to Moses. Besides when you write what you did you are shooting yourself in the foot. Sabbath was a ceremony as well as the unclean laws and tithing.

Heaven and Earth have not passed so verse 18 cannot refer to the ceremonial law thus it must refer to other laws given to Moses

Now you are really getting into muddy waters. Heaven will never pass and He will renew the Earth. If it isn't the ceremonial laws then you are responsible to observe all of them. Are SDAs now observing all the feasts? What are the other lsws?

Verse 19 refers to the "least commandments" indicating that there is a greater commandment in the law. Could it be the commandment that requires worship of the creator.

No, it couldn't be because that commandment along with all the other 613 commands came to an end at Calvary. That is why Paul could write that the Sabbath is a shadow and Christ is reality. That is why Paul could also write that the ministry that brought death written on tables of stone were transitory (temporary).

 

[1stcenturylady]

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus fulfilled, with his death, the ceremonial law that he spoke to Moses. IE verse 17

Heaven and Earth have not passed so verse 18 cannot refer to the ceremonial law thus it must refer to other laws given to Moses

Verse 19 refers to the "least commandments" indicating that there is a greater commandment in the law. Could it be the commandment that requires worship of the creator.

Hi Happy Camper (were you a Pathfinder?)

What Jesus fulfilled was the COVENANT (Exodus 34:28), in order to bring in a NEW COVENANT.

Till all be fulfilled was referring to His death. Remember, His last words were, "It is finished." What was finished? The Old Covenant of not sinning by our own strength based on the letter of the written laws. We now keep from sinning in a new way - through walking in the Spirit. What you are doing is by the Old Covenant, of which the Sabbath was it's sign. Come over to the New Covenant, repent and receive the Holy Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. You believe only the ceremonial laws were fulfilled. Don't you know that Jesus is Lord of the Sabboth? He is the Creator. He IS our Sabbath Rest. He IS the substance of the Sabbath. We TRUST IN HIM, EVERYDAY, NOT ONCE A WEEK.

"For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.”

 

[bugkiller]

fulfill means to bring to an end.


Torah were the words of the covenant and Torah included all 613 commands from God to Israel. If we follow your reasoning that heaven and earth has not passed then you, as a SDA, are lacking in your duty to God. The only things from the book of the law that you believe has any meaning is the unclean laws, tithing laws and the laws concerning loving the neighbor. Jesus said not one jot or one tittle.

Actually "till heaven and earth pass" is a metaphor. Jesus used it to emphasize its importance to Israel.


Jesus under the law was speaking to those who were also under the law. Remember what the Father said to Israel before He gave them Torah, EX19:5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

Then God gave them the 10 plus all that is in the book of the law.


Please do not through verses out that do not mean what you are trying to prove. Jesus said THE LAW and that was not just the part that He dictated to Moses. Besides when you write what you did you are shooting yourself in the foot. Sabbath was a ceremony as well as the unclean laws and tithing.


Now you are really getting into muddy waters. Heaven will never pass and He will renew the Earth. If it isn't the ceremonial laws then you are responsible to observe all of them. Are SDAs now observing all the feasts? What are the other lsws?


No, it couldn't be because that commandment along with all the other 613 commands came to an end at Calvary. That is why Paul could write that the Sabbath is a shadow and Christ is reality. That is why Paul could also write that the ministry that brought death written on tables of stone were transitory (temporary).

I realize you posted Mat 5:17-18. Usually the opposition brings the passage up. It is weird that they can quote that passage and say only some of the laws are done away with. Why do more people not pick up on this fact is beyond me. Does anyone listen to what is said and written? A favorite saying of BobRyan is that details matter. I say uncle.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

They have a spiritual aspect that is antithetical to the written law.

Naw, not according to my dictionary.

Only the fifth commandment, as written, carries with it a blessing: long life. Ephesians 6:2 The others carry the death penalty, or the curse of the Law. If the commandments are to be a blessing they must be fulfilled; filled full, i.e. "abstain from evil, do what is good." This pattern is revealed in the Proverbs.

Why do you think we must fulfill the law when Jesus did that for us? Can you explain how one can be in violation of the law while conforming to Jesus' new commandment -

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. JN 13

The Christian is to "magnify the law and make it honorable".

What do you base that statement on?

Keeping your hands in your own pockets and your eyes off of your neighbor's wife (or husband) out of fear is legalistic but not very spiritual. The Law tells what not to do, the Spirit tells you what you should be doing instead, which is the antithesis of the written law.

Yeah I was in the mall one day and an older man asked me if I was playing pocket pool. Should have asked him if his hands were jealous.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Deuteronomy 30:15-20 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20 loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

Matthew 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

So choose life!

Deut 30 has nothing to do with eternal life.

Is Jesus talking about something different from wht the man ask in v 16?

Still want to know why the man left sad when he said he kept the commandments. Jesus did not counter him.

Can an individual enter heaven because they kept the 10 Cs? (hint - read John 10.)

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus fulfilled, with his death, the ceremonial law that he spoke to Moses. IE verse 17

Heaven and Earth have not passed so verse 18 cannot refer to the ceremonial law thus it must refer to other laws given to Moses

Verse 19 refers to the "least commandments" indicating that there is a greater commandment in the law. Could it be the commandment that requires worship of the creator.

No Jesus fulfilled all the law concerning Him as He said in LK 24:44. That is a statement directed at Mat 5:17-18.

bugkiller

 

[Norbert L]

Weren't the Jews in Berea checking that Paul was telling old testament stories accurately?

Yes and there's no reason why we shouldn't check to see if the idea of keeping the seventh day is compulsory for Christians is in the NT as well. Show me where it says the seventh day is compulsory in the NT because that's the sticky point for some Christians. Your not going to find it, frankly I doubt the word compulsory is in the Bible.

What you will find are the concrete actions taken by Jesus, His disciples and the early Christians. You'll have to decide how to respond. It was Jesus' custom Luke 4:16, Paul preached the gospel on that day Acts 18:4 and the women rested on it while Jesus' was in the grave Luke 23:56.

I'm of the opinion that the arguments for and against the Sabbath day are mostly two sides of the same coin. With the information given to us in the scriptures, the type of question you asked is something the individual Christian needs decide on.

 

[GingerBeer]

Weren't the Jews in Berea checking that Paul was telling old testament stories accurately?

Yes and there's no reason why we shouldn't check to see if the idea of keeping the seventh day is compulsory for Christians is in the NT as well.

Well, the Jews in Beroea were not Christians and only a few of them became Christians. They did not leave much of an impact on history after Paul's visit. No surviving letter written to them by Paul exists whereas in Thessalonica - where the Jews opposed Paul - enough people became Christians to form a church and Paul wrote to them twice in letter that are part of the new testament. Whatever the Beroean Jews did evidently only a few of them became Christians so maybe their example is not one that Christians ought to follow.

Do you think that gentile Christians were commanded to keep the seventh day? No such requirement is mentioned in Acts 15.

 

[Norbert L]

Well, the Jews in Beroea were not Christians and only a few of them became Christians. They did not leave much of an impact on history after Paul's visit. No surviving letter written to them by Paul exists whereas in Thessalonica - where the Jews opposed Paul - enough people became Christians to form a church and Paul wrote to them twice in letter that are part of the new testament. Whatever the Beroean Jews did evidently only a few of them became Christians so maybe their example is not one that Christians ought to follow.

Do you think that gentile Christians were commanded to keep the seventh day? No such requirement is mentioned in Acts 15.

Are you saying that having the character to examine the scriptures on a regular basis with readiness of mind is a bad example of behavior for Christians?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

13What do you base that statement on?

bugkiller

Isaiah 42:21
What I base my statement on.

Isaiah 42:16
Prophetic of the future revealing of the true meaning, or fulfillment, of the law, thus magnifying (expanding) it, and making it honorable. This can only apply to the future Spirit-led church that Jesus will never forsake, as God did Israel.

 

[GingerBeer]

Are you saying that having the character to examine the scriptures on a regular basis with readiness of mind is a bad example of behavior for Christians?

No. I repeated the facts given in the account in The Acts of the Apostles. Jewish men heard Paul, checked his story in the old testament scriptures and were praised as "more noble" than the Thessalonians on that score yet history records no letters from Paul to Beroea and two from Paul to the Thessalonians.

 

[Norbert L]

No. I repeated the facts given in the account in The Acts of the Apostles. Jewish men heard Paul, checked his story in the old testament scriptures and were praised as "more noble" than the Thessalonians on that score yet history records no letters from Paul to Beroea and two from Paul to the Thessalonians.

I understand the historical evidence and facts surrounding Berea and Thessalonia. What I don't understand is how you concluded that such things would in any way mean or suggest that, "so maybe their example is not one that Christians ought to follow". The only other reasonable guess that I can see is to use the expression, be sure the brain is engaged before putting mouth into gear. Which is something I can identify with because I too can be guilty of driving like that.

I believe a majority of Christians on these boards do believe that the example of the Bereans are positively mentioned in the scripture and that it is something we should consider to put into practice ourselves. However if you're in the minority of those who believe their example is not one that Christians ought to follow, then it would be best to defend such a position rather than avoid it.

 

[Bob S]

Isaiah 42:21
What I base my statement on.

Isaiah 42:16
Prophetic of the future revealing of the true meaning, or fulfillment, of the law, thus magnifying (expanding) it, and making it honorable. This can only apply to the future Spirit-led church that Jesus will never forsake, as God did Israel.

What makes you think God forsake Israel? What I glean from all that happened is that Israel forsake God many times. Israel broke the covenant relationship. What was God to do but to allow Israel go their own way. All of this was part of the plan of salvation that the Godhead planed before the foundation of the Earth.

And by the way, why can't you get your own cornflakes?

They have a spiritual aspect that is antithetical to the written law.

Only the fifth commandment, as written, carries with it a blessing: long life. Ephesians 6:2 The others carry the death penalty, or the curse of the Law. If the commandments are to be a blessing they must be fulfilled; filled full, i.e. "abstain from evil, do what is good." This pattern is revealed in the Proverbs.

The Christian is to "magnify the law and make it honorable".
Keeping your hands in your own pockets and your eyes off of your neighbor's wife (or husband) out of fear is legalistic but not very spiritual. The Law tells what not to do, the Spirit tells you what you should be doing instead, which is the antithesis of the written law.

Lets make something clear. Torah or the law had nothing to do with the salvation of Israelites. Keeping the law was Israel's ticket to be able to enter the earthly promised land of Canaan period. Keeping the law had absolutely no bearing on eternal salvation. My goodness Israel, 40 years prior, was right next door to Canaan and couldn't go in because that first generation of Israelites failed to live by the standards of the law. How could Christians expect to enter the heavenly promised land by keeping the law. Are we any better at law keeping than they were?

Salvation came the same way it came to Abraham (used in scripture as an example) by faith and God's grace. We read all the accolades about how good the law was and surely it was unless it was broken. Israel lost it because they failed. If the law had anything to do with eternal life we would all fail the test. Old Enoch would have a lonely life up there. :-(

The Torah has nothing to do with Christian's salvation. Keeping the Torah because we love God is absolutely not something Christians need to be concerned with. We are not trying to get into the earthly promised land. All that was for Israel and them only.

Old Covenant = earthly promised land, New Covenant = Heavens promised land.

Think about it brothers and sisters, why would any thinking person want to serve the old covenant. The land of Canaan is not there to be entered for an earthly home. God has provided Christians with homes. Jesus didn't come to give us an earthly home. He came to give us a Heavenly home already prepared for us.

I pray that this helps.

 

[GingerBeer]

I don't understand is how you concluded that such things would in any way mean or suggest that, "so maybe their example is not one that Christians ought to follow"

Well, that would be because they were Jewish and not believers so they were suspicious of Paul's stories and wanted to check them to see if they were accurate or not. Their example is not what a Christian would (or should) follow regarding Paul's preaching. Christians accept Paul's letters as holy scripture and would accept Paul's preaching as accurate. Christians do not need to check the old testament to see if Paul was telling the truth or not because Christians believe that he was telling the truth. Does that clarify the matter?

I ended my post by observing that Acts 15 does not lay seventh day keeping on gentile Christians as a requirement for continued fellowship with converts to Christ from Judaism.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What makes you think God forsake Israel? What I glean from all that happened is that Israel forsake God many times. Israel broke the covenant relationship. What was God to do but to allow Israel go their own way. All of this was part of the plan of salvation that the Godhead planed before the foundation of the Earth.

God forsook Israel after they rebelled once too often, bringing the gentile nations to destroy them. See Isaiah 42:24-25

Lets make something clear. Torah or the law had nothing to do with the salvation of Israelites. Keeping the law was Israel's ticket to be able to enter the earthly promised land of Canaan period. Keeping the law had absolutely no bearing on eternal salvation. My goodness Israel, 40 years prior, was right next door to Canaan and couldn't go in because that first generation of Israelites failed to live by the standards of the law. How could Christians expect to enter the heavenly promised land by keeping the law. Are we any better at law keeping than they were?

Of course not. Isaiah 42:16 refers to the new covenant and the church. God is saying he won't forsake the church, no matter what. "I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."

In turn God expects the church to learn (grow in grace and knowledge) the righteousness that is found in the true intent of the law (commandments).

Ephesians 4:28 is a good example of what I mean by thesis/antithesis (OC/NC) of the law. This can be applied to most of the commandments.

"Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth."

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And by the way, why can't you get your own cornflakes?

Cornflakes is a metaphor for my way. I'm waiting for the world to do things my way. (But the prospects are pretty grim.)

 

[listed]

Naw, not according to my dictionary.Why do you think we must fulfill the law when Jesus did that for us? Can you explain how one can be in violation of the law while conforming to Jesus' new commandment -

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. JN 13What do you base that statement on?Yeah I was in the mall one day and an older man asked me if I was playing pocket pool. Should have asked him if his hands were jealous.

bugkiller

You have to think fast. I'd have doubled over in laughter.

 

[listed]

Isaiah 42:21
What I base my statement on.

That's pretty good except the part of the trinity called "Lord" in the OT changes from the Father to Jesus in in the NT.

Isaiah 42:16
Prophetic of the future revealing of the true meaning, or fulfillment, of the law, thus magnifying (expanding) it, and making it honorable. This can only apply to the future Spirit-led church that Jesus will never forsake, as God did Israel.

Another pretty good reference except it says "by a way they knew not." If that's true it can't be the law magnified or not.

 

[listed]

Cornflakes is a metaphor for my way. I'm waiting for the world to do things my way. (But the prospects are pretty grim.)

Gonna be a long wait.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's pretty good except the part of the trinity called "Lord" in the OT changes from the Father to Jesus in in the NT.Another pretty good reference except it says "by a way they knew not." If that's true it can't be the law magnified or not.

This the "way they knew not".

"Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth."

There was nothing in the law that compelled one to help another, but merely refraining from harming another. The true intent of the law lay between the lines. There is a great gap between harm and help, but both are implicit in the commands, however helping is an act of a spirit-led conscience.