Re: the Revelation 12 "sign" in the sky

Quasar92

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There are many people who have been using stellar alignments to prove some date for the rapture or tribulation. Revelation 12 is explained by movements of interstellar space bodies within the constellations.

My first thought is that God did say He set the objects for signs and determining the date.

But...those constellations, that is the shape of objects on earth, were created by the Greeks about 3,000 years ago. That would have been in a time where God didn't appear to be all that active with Israel, let alone the Greeks.

Should we pay any attention to the constellations at all?


The great and wonderous sign in heaven - The Birth of Jesus: Scripturally connected by Mt.24:30 and Rev.12:1-2


The essential factor in interpreting the symbol of Revelation 12:1–5 is the identification of the woman. What is John signifying by mentioning her? This much is certain: the woman in the first three verses is featured as being in heaven and both the Sun and the Moon are in association with her. After the dragon casts down a third of the stars of heaven (Revelation 12:4), the woman is then found on earth (verses 6 and 14). But the important factor is the birth of the man-child and the Woman’s relationship with the heavenly signs while she is symbolically in heaven. (The first three verses of Revelation 12 shows the Sun clothing her, the Moon under her feet and the Twelve Stars on her head).

The “birth” of the Messiah is associated with this heavenly spectacle. Since some noted heavenly bodies are a part of the picture, it could well be that John intended the woman to represent a constellation that the two primary luminaries transverse, and that she was a part of the zodiacal system which gives headship to the signs (the Twelve Stars were a “crown” upon her head). Recall that interpreting astronomical signs dominated the thinking of most people in the 1st century, whether the people were Jews or Gentiles. Indeed, the word “sign” used by the author of the Book of Revelation to describe this celestial display was the same one used by the ancients to denote the zodiacal constellations. 17

This is made clearer when one looks closely at the text. Since the Sun and Moon are amidst or in line with the body of this woman, she could be, in a symbolic way, a constellation located within the normal paths of the Sun and Moon. The only sign of a woman which exists along the ecliptic (the track of the Sun in its journey through the stars) is that of Virgo the Virgin. She occupies, in body form, a space of about 50 degrees along the ecliptic. The head of the woman actually bridges some 10 degrees into the previous sign of Leo and her feet overlap about 10 degrees into the following sign of Libra, the Scales. In the period of Jesus’ birth, the Sun entered in its annual course through the heavens into the head position of the woman about August 13, and exited from her feet about October 2. But the apostle John saw the scene when the Sun was “clothing” or “adorning” the woman. This surely indicates that the position of the Sun in the vision was located somewhere mid-bodied to the woman, between the neck and the knees. The Sun could hardly be said to clothe her if it were situated in her face or near her feet.

The Sun Clothed the Woman

The only time in the year that the Sun could be in a position to “clothe” the celestial woman called Virgo (that is, to be mid-bodied to her, in the region where a pregnant woman carries a child) is when the Sun is located between about 150 and 170 degrees along the ecliptic. This “clothing” of the woman by the Sun occurs for a 20-day period each year. This 20 degree spread could indicate the general time when Jesus was born. In 3 B.C.E., the Sun would have entered this celestial region about August 27 and exited from it about September 15. If John in the Book of Revelation is associating the birth of Jesus with the period when the Sun was mid-bodied to this woman called Virgo (and this is no doubt what he means), then Jesus would have to be born within that 20-day period. From the point of view of the Magi who were astrologers, this would have been the only logical sign under which the Jewish Messiah might be born, especially if He was to be born of a virgin. Even today, astrologers recognize that the sign of Virgo is the one which has reference to a messianic world ruler to be born from a virgin. 18

This heavenly woman called Virgo is normally depicted as a virgin holding in her right hand a green branch and in her left hand a sprig of grain. In the Hebrew Zodiac, she at first (in the time of David) denoted Ruth who was gleaning in the fields of Boaz. She then later became the Virgin when the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 was given in the time of King Hezekiah and the prophet Isaiah. This Virgin held in her left hand a sprig of grain. This was precisely where the bright star called Spica is found. Indeed, the chief star of the constellation Virgo is Spica.

Bullinger, in his book The Witness of the Stars (pp. 29–34), said that the word “Spica” has, through the Arabic, the meaning “the branch” and that it symbolically refers to Jesus who was prophetically called “the Branch” in Zechariah 3:8 and 6:12. And Bullinger (and Seiss in his book The Gospel in the Stars) maintains that this sign of Virgo designates the heavenly witness for the birth of the Messiah (Jesus). They say that Virgo should actually begin the zodiacal signs which give the story of the Messiah. This may be. The apostle John may have given the same indication as far as the first full sign of the zodiac is concerned. He depicted the woman of Revelation as having a crown of Twelve Stars on her head.

This could well show that the woman (Virgo) is the constellation of headship for all the twelve signs. The “head” position of Virgo is located within the last ten degrees of Leo. It was in this very region where the story of the career of the Messiah would begin that Bullinger and Seiss referred to. Thus, the story of Jesus and his mission on earth, as related by these heavenly symbols, should logically begin with his birth from a virgin and conclude with him being crowned king in the final sign of Leo the Lion (with its chief star being Regulus ― the King star). This is no doubt what the apostle John was trying to show through the symbols found in Revelation 12.

The birth of this child in Revelation 12 (whom John identified with Jesus) should have occurred while the Sun was “clothing” the woman, when the Sun was mid-bodied to Virgo. This period of time in 3 B.C.E. covered 20 days (August 27 to September 15). If Jesus were born within that 20-day period, it would fit most remarkably with the testimony of Luke (relative to the birth of John the Baptist and the eighth course of Abijah). Indeed, the chronological indications associated with the priestly course of Abijah place Jesus’ birth exactly within this period. But there is a way to arrive at a much closer time for Jesus’ birth than a simple 20-day period. The position of the Moon in John’s vision actually pinpoints the nativity to within a day ― even to within a period of an hour and a half (within 90 minutes) on that day. This may appear an absurd assessment on the surface, but it is quite possible.

The key is the Moon. The apostle said it was located “under her feet.” What does the word “under” signify in this case? Does it mean the woman of the vision was standing on the Moon when John observed it or does it mean her feet were positioned slightly above the Moon? John does not tell us. This, however, is not of major consequence in using the location of the Moon to answer our question because it would only involve the difference of a degree or two. The Moon travels about 12 degrees a day in its course through the heavens. This motion of one or two degrees by the Moon represents on earth a period of only two to four hours. This difference is no problem in determining the time of Jesus’ birth. What is vital, however, is that this shows the Moon as a New Moon.

The Precise Position of the Moon is Important

Now note this point. Since the feet of Virgo the Virgin represent the last 7 degrees of the constellation (in the time of Jesus this would have been between about 180 and 187 degrees along the ecliptic), the Moon has to be positioned somewhere under that 7 degree arc to satisfy the description of Revelation 12. But the Moon also has to be in that exact location when the Sun is mid-bodied to Virgo. In the year 3 B.C.E., these two factors came to precise agreement for about an hour and a half, as observed from Palestine or Patmos, in the twilight period of September 11th The relationship began about 6:15 p.m. (sunset), and lasted until around 7:45 p.m. (moonset). This is the only day in the whole year that the astronomical phenomenon described in the twelfth chapter of Revelation could take place.

This also shows one other important point. The Moon was in crescent phase. It was a New Moon day, the start of a new lunar month. (See plates one and two below which show early depictions of the celestial scene of Revelation 12:1–3 and how the Moon is shown to be in its crescent phase.)

Modern Man and Astronomical Motions

While ordinary people in modern times who are not professional astronomers have little knowledge of the solar, lunar, planetary and stellar motions, the people from the 1st century up to the Industrial Revolution were well accustomed to them. Even people of little education were generally knowledgeable of the main motions of the astronomical bodies — even more than most college-educated people today. When anyone of early times read Revelation 12:1–3, an astronomical relationship was realized at once. There was no doubt that a New Moon display was being shown to them. And when the woman of the sign was interpreted as Virgo the Virgin, and with the Sun mid-bodied to the Virgin, they clearly saw a New Moon day occurring sometime in late summer.

The apostle John said this heavenly relationship occurred at the time of Jesus’ birth. And in 3 B.C.E. this exact combination of celestial factors happened just after sunset only on one day of the year. It was on September 11th. It could not have occurred at any other time of the year. Indeed, even one day before ― on September 10 ― the Moon would have been located above the Virgin’s feet with the crescent not visible, while one day farther ― on September 12 ― the Moon had moved too far beyond the feet of the Virgin, at least 25 diameters of the Moon east of her feet. Thus, only one day applies. That day was just after sunset on September 11th, 3 B.C.E.

The Exact Day of Jesus’ Birth

The apostle John is presenting to his readers something of profound significance in a symbolic way. Revelation 12:1–3 shows a New Moon day that could only be observed from earth just after sunset, and the day was September 11th. This fits well with Luke’s description of the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem. Recall that,
“there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over the flock by night ... and the angel said ... unto you is born this day [which began at sundown] in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.”

Luke 2:8–11

Jesus was born in early evening, and Revelation 12 shows it was a New Moon day.

What New Moon could this have been? The answer is most amazing. It is almost too amazing! September 11, 3 B.C.E. was Tishri One on the Jewish calendar. To Jewish people this would have been a very profound occasion indeed. Tishri One is none other than the Jewish New Year’s day (Rosh ha-Shanah, or as the Bible calls it, The Day of Trumpets ― Leviticus 23:23–26). It was an important annual holy day of the Jews (but not one of the three annual festivals that required all Palestinian Jews to be in Jerusalem).

What a significant day for the appearance of the Messiah to arrive on earth from the Jewish point of view! And remarkably, no other day of the year could astronomically fit Revelation 12:1–3. The apostle John is certainly showing forth an astronomical sign which answers precisely with the Jewish New Year Day. John would have realized the significance of this astronomical scene that he was describing.

In the next chapter I will show the symbolic and religious meaning of this New Year’s day as interpreted by the Jews (and consequently by the apostles and early Christians) as it relates to the Messiah and his kingship. The information may provide a better understanding why the early apostles of the 1st century, and many Jews and Gentiles, so quickly came to accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Whatever the case, the historical evidence supports the nativity of Jesus in 3 B.C.E., at the beginning of a Roman census, and (if we use the astronomical indications of the Book of Revelation) his birth would have occurred just after sundown on September 11th, on Rosh ha-Shanah, the Day of Trumpets — the Jewish New Year Day for governmental affairs. There could hardly have been a better day in the ecclesiastical calendar of the Jews to introduce the Messiah to the world from a Jewish point of view; and no doubt this is what the apostle John clearly intended to show by the sign he recorded in Revelation 12.

By Ernest L. Martin, PhD.

Edit: IMO, the twelve star crown the woman is wearing represents the twelve tribes of Israel, not the zodiacal signs.

The Constellations she is in tell us exactly who she is: 80% in Virgo, the virgin, as Mary, who is pregnant andin pain, ready to give birth to Jesus. with her head 10% into the Constellation of Leo, the Lion of Judah, revealing which tribe Jesus came from, and 10% into the Constellation of Lybra, the scales of righteousness and justice, a clear representation of Jesus.


Which is what Jesus was referring to in Mt.24:30, when He referred to the sign of the Son of Man appearing, at His second coming, in Setember of the year, at the time of the Autumnal Equinox. "Time, time and the dividing of time." Dan.7:25 KJV.

Quasar92
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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That's kind of like how it was the last time Jesus came. Only three guys could figure out the signs. Nothing's new under the sun.
Hi Dave. I am curious . Where is it written that only three guys could figure out the signs?
 
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Root of Jesse

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John was in Revelation and he wasn't Jesus. The elder was a male, and he wasn't Jesus either. That kind of assumption isn't going to get one very far.

Let's look at this male child. What are we told about him? He is born of a woman. The Dragon is waiting to devour him. He rules the nations with a rod of iron, and he is raptured (harpazo) to the throne of God as soon as he is born.

First, who are we told rules with a rod of iron? We are told in Psalms 2 that Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron. So, Jesus is a part of this. We are also told in Revelation 2 that the Church will also rule the nations with a rod of iron. We now have two parties ruling with a rod of iron, Jesus and the Church.

There are two words used to describe the ascent of Jesus in the scriptures, neither of them are 'harpazo', pertaining to a violent removal. Jesus ascended gradually, being watched by His followers. The only one of the two entities who rules with a rod of iron is described as departing as 'harpazo', and that's the Chruch (1 Then 4:17). The male child's departure is described as 'harpazo'.

Jesus did not have the dragon waiting to devour Him when He was born and He didn't depart as soon as He was birthed. Herod's execution of the male children didn't take place until about two years after His birth.

The male child turns out to be the gathering of the body of Christ onto one unit. We are told in numerous places that Jesus is the Head and the Church is the Body (Eph 5:23, Col 1:18, Col 2:29). The Head has already returned to the Throne, the Body (the Church) has not. When He comes back, He will receive us unto Himself, The head, and the Body members, both living and dead, will be together corporately for the first time as the single entity who we are told will rule with a rod of iron.

This child isn't Jesus. It's Him being joined with His Church as one body. In three places we are told what John is seeing had still yet to take place (Rev 1:1, 1:19, and 22:6). There is no room to suddenly take this passage out of that framework and declare it to be a past event. Even if it were, it would be an inaccurate one.

Jesus was not raptured at His departure.
Jesus is not the only one described as ruling with a rod of iron.
Jesus was not pursued by the dragon to devour Him right before His ascension.
Jesus did not depart right after His birth either, but rather He grew and matured.
Jesus was the child born of the woman. The End. Therefore, the woman of Rev 12 is Mary. The End.
 
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SeventyOne

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Jesus was the child born of the woman. The End. Therefore, the woman of Rev 12 is Mary. The End.

I see. Well if you are just declaring it so without evidence, then it must be true. :rolleyes:
 
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keras

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That the forthcoming Great Tribulation will be worse that any preceding event, is clear from the descriptions of the worldwide and cosmic disasters.
Thinking that all these vividly and comprehensively prophesied events have already happened, or are just allegories, etc, constitutes a failure to see; firstly how prophesies about Jesus first Advent and the Jewish 70 year captivity in Babylon, etc, were accurately fulfilled and then to think our world will never experience such things, is a sheer 'head in the sand' attitude.

God has given us all the information we need to know about what He plans for our future. To discount it is nothing short of the sin of ignoring His Word.
 
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SeventyOne

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Isn't Revelations a vision, and therefore symbolic? Why do we assume that the bit about the sign being in the sky is literal?

Why do you assume everything in a vision has to be symbolic?
 
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Quasar92

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Isn't Revelations a vision, and therefore symbolic? Why do we assume that the bit about the sign being in the sky is literal?
Isn't Revelations a vision, and therefore symbolic? Why do we assume that the bit about the sign being in the sky is literal?


First of all, there are two "wonderous" signs in Rev.12. The first one refers to a woman in the sky, who is pregnant in verses 1-2. The documentation pertains to literal events that take place in the heavenly bodies as described in my post #27. Where the woman represents Mary. The second wonder begins in verse 3 and pertains to the woman identified as Israel. The text of the second wonder, is literal prophecy yet to take place

The first wonder, is the exact time of Jesus birth as told in the heavens and what He describes in Mt.24:30, as the "Sign of the Son of Man." This sign appears in the heavens once every year. Review #27 for the complete article.


Quasar02
 
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parousia70

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That the forthcoming Great Tribulation will be worse that any preceding event, is clear from the descriptions of the worldwide and cosmic disasters.

Since the OT Prophets, time and again, use the language of worldwide and cosmic disasters to describe past localized judgments upon nations, you need to demonstrate where scripture teaches you to apply a polar opposite interpretation to that same language when you find it in the NT.

God has given us all the information we need to know about what He plans for our future. To discount it is nothing short of the sin of ignoring His Word.

Rather, whatever God has in store for the future, the timing and details have not been revealed to Men.
Deuteronomy 29:29
 
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Blade

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There are many people who have been using stellar alignments to prove some date for the rapture or tribulation. Revelation 12 is explained by movements of interstellar space bodies within the constellations.

My first thought is that God did say He set the objects for signs and determining the date.
But...those constellations, that is the shape of objects on earth, were created by the Greeks about 3,000 years ago. That would have been in a time where God didn't appear to be all that active with Israel, let alone the Greeks.

Should we pay any attention to the constellations at all?


No such thing in the word of God as "one can know the date". You go out side..you see leafs starting to fall..its getting colder. SIGN.. FALL is here. or WINTER. So.. when Jesus said wars and earthquakes and all the rest start to happen ALL AT THE SAME TIME. You know the END is near but not yet. Jesus told you.. He went to make you a home and would come back and get you? Did Jesus say that yes or no? Then you live each day as if THAT was the day He is coming. And watch and pray. You will never miss Him.

If your asking can you know by the starts the date of? Then no. Asking can there be signs in the stars ..yes.. its written.
 
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SeventyOne

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Well there's pretty good precedent in the Bible that dreams and visions are always symbolic.

Always? Please show me the symbolism in this vision?

Acts 10:3-6 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.”
 
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Acts2:38

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There are many people who have been using stellar alignments to prove some date for the rapture or tribulation. Revelation 12 is explained by movements of interstellar space bodies within the constellations.

My first thought is that God did say He set the objects for signs and determining the date.
But...those constellations, that is the shape of objects on earth, were created by the Greeks about 3,000 years ago. That would have been in a time where God didn't appear to be all that active with Israel, let alone the Greeks.

Should we pay any attention to the constellations at all?

Revelations, one of the most abused books of the bible. Don't put yourself into a worried frenzy with this book. This all happened already EXCEPT of course for the coming of Christ.

Four times does Revelation say "time is at hand", and "shortly come to pass".

Revelation 1:1; 1:3; 22:6; 22:10.

It would be preposterous to think that they meant 2,000 years into the future.

If you need more evidence, remember the repeated mentioning of Jesus "coming like a thief in the night". (1 Thessalonians 5:2)

There will be NO signs of His coming. Does a thief warn you or give you signs that he will rob your house?

Jesus doesn't even know when He will come but the Father. Would anyone claim to know more than Jesus? (Matthew 24:36)

Even more evidence:
Matthew 24; Luke 21

The signs these two chapters are talking about are for the destruction of the Jewish Commonwealth and the temple, NOT for Christs coming.

Notice verses Matthew 24:34; Luke 21:32? Unless you have 2,000 year old people walking around, those signs talked about already happened. Revelation was a book relating to what was talked about in Luke, Matthew, Daniel, so on and so forth.

Main point, be ready "in season and out" (2 Timothy 4:2) because when Christ does come, that's it man, no second chances (2 Thessalonians 1:8). Don't worry about what Revelation says.

Revelation in the Greek is simply, a revealing or uncovering. Not an apocalypse like some might think.
 
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LutheranGuy123

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Always? Please show me the symbolism in this vision?

Acts 10:3-6 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.”
Is that really a vision? People talk to angels often in the Bible. What does the original text say?
 
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Dave Watchman

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Hi Dave. I am curious . Where is it written that only three guys could figure out the signs?

Do you know the correct answer?

Are you trying to lure me into a trap?

I was thinking about the three wise men, I bet it never mentions "three", does it?

Let me Google it.

From Wikipedia:

According to Matthew, the only one of the four Canonical gospels to mention the Magi, they came "from the east" to worship the "king of the Jews".[2] Although the account does not mention the number of Magi, the three gifts has led to the widespread assumption that there were three men.[3] In Eastern Christianity, especially the Syriac churches, the Magi often number twelve.[4]

800px-Magi_%281%29.jpg


So you caught me HMFJ. I was speaking from my own version of an oral tradition. It could have been 3 or even 12. But it was still just a handful of people that were on the lookout for the Messiah.

And those Magi were sure enough in what they knew to come from a long way risking their gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

Herrad of Landsberg: The three Magi (named as Patisar, Caspar and Melchior), illustration from the Hortus deliciarum (12th century):

The_three_Magi_%28Balthasar%2C_Caspar%2C_Melchior%29.jpg


I wonder if that's a conjunction of Jupiter and Venus those guys are looking at?


wise-men_zpsmg8kw5xi.jpg


Peaceful Sabbath, HM. :)
 
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So you caught me HMFJ. I was speaking from my own version of an oral tradition. It could have been 3 or even 12. But it was still just a handful of people that were on the lookout for the Messiah.
Ha! ^_^ OK fair enough brother.;) I heard a story once a while ago that the wise men also traveled with servants, so it could have been a extensive company of people come to see the King. I almost forgot the story, but your comment brought it back to memory. It is not in the scripture though. I guess you could say that also was ''oral tradition". :)
 
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Riberra

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If your asking can you know by the starts the date of? Then no. Asking can there be signs in the stars ..yes.. its written.
Are you referring to Matthew 24:24 ...if so read it again ..it does NOT SAY signs in the stars

Matthew 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elects.

And if you read it even more attentively there is no removal of the believers (elect) mentioned ...but rather that even the very elect are at risk of being deceived by these signs and wonders [that will be made by false Christs, and false prophets] .

Signs and wonders which have nothing to do with some planets alignment in the Virgo constellation by the way.
 
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Quasar92

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Are you referring to Matthew 24:24 ...if so read it again ..it does NOT SAY signs in the stars

Matthew 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elects.

And if you read it even more attentively there is no removal of the believers (elect) mentioned ...but rather that even the very elect are at risk of being deceived by these signs and wonders [that will be made by false Christs, and false prophets] .

Signs and wonders which have nothing to do with some planets alignment in the Virgo constellation by the way.


Consider the following evidence for d:


I suggest you review post 27 andthe following Scriptures:

Gen.1:14 "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so."

The article in post 27 was a five year study by astronomers and scientists and are facts pertaining to the signs in the sky, explaining the sign in Rev.12:1-2, as to the precise date of Jesus birth, that He referred to in Mt.24:30, as the sign of the Son of Man. The study is not to deceive others, but rather, to edify them.


Quasar92
 
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Riberra

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Consider the following evidence for d:


I suggest you review post 27 andthe following Scriptures:

Gen.1:14 "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so."

The article in post 27 was a five year study by astronomers and scientists and are facts pertaining to the signs in the sky, explaining the sign in Rev.12:1-2, as to the precise date of Jesus birth,
I Agree with that part .

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More details
The Time of Jesus' Birth
Chapter 5: The Time of Jesus' Birth

The Real Star of Bethlehem
Chapter 4: The Real Star of Bethlehem

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The Star of Bethlehem Index Page



that He referred to in Mt.24:30, as the sign of the Son of Man.
The sign of the Son of Man mentioned in Matthew 24:30 which refers to the SECOND COMING of Jesus is NOT about a constellation in Heaven ... It refers to Matthew 24:27

Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 
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Consider the following evidence for d:


I suggest you review post 27 andthe following Scriptures:

Gen.1:14 "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so."

The article in post 27 was a five year study by astronomers and scientists and are facts pertaining to the signs in the sky, explaining the sign in Rev.12:1-2, as to the precise date of Jesus birth, that He referred to in Mt.24:30, as the sign of the Son of Man. The study is not to deceive others, but rather, to edify them.


Quasar92

I Agree with that part .

9-11-3BC-300x209.jpg



More details
The Time of Jesus' Birth
Chapter 5: The Time of Jesus' Birth

The Real Star of Bethlehem
Chapter 4: The Real Star of Bethlehem

Source for more ---scroll for free articles
The Star of Bethlehem Index Page




The sign of the Son of Man mentioned in Matthew 24:30 which refers to the SECOND COMING of Jesus is NOT about a constellation in Heaven ... It refers to Matthew 24:27

Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


You guys are blowing the context and meanings of Matthew 24 right out of the water, and I don't mean that in a good way.

Matthew 24 talks of two events, verses 4-35 is the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and verses 36 and following of Jesus second coming, in which THAT DAY we will NOT have signs. A "thief in the night" doesn't give you signs or warnings that hes going to rob you.

In v. 29 Jesus mentions what will occur “immediately after the tribulation of those days.” He then speaks in a favorite Jewish style of writing and speaking called apocalyptic. This type of language is not meant to be taken literally. It is language that speaks of important events in a cataclysmic way, and does not necessarily refer to the end of time. For example, note Old Testament examples of the following phrases:

a) The sun darkened – Refers to the fall of Babylon in Isaiah 13:10, the distress of Egypt in Ezek. 32:7, and in Peter’s sermon on Pentecost in Joel 2:10, 31; Acts 2:20).

b) The stars falling – is used by Isaiah to refer to the fall of Edom (Is. 34:4).

c) Coming on the clouds – is a typical apocalyptic phrase referring to the Lord coming in judgment – Is. 19:1; Lam. 2:1; Ezek. 30:18).

Therefore, one does not need to insist that vss 29-31 refer to the Second Coming of Christ, but rather these verses demonstrate that the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds is a symbol of His kingly reign and dominion (which would have become more firmly established after the Jewish system of faith was destroyed), and His pronounced judgment upon Jerusalem. Jesus wants His disciples to know that this destruction was not just an act by the Roman army. It was a symbol of Jesus coming in judgment upon the Jewish nation (like other prophets has predicted in earlier times) (Micah 3:12; Jer. 26:6-18).

Everything up until verse 36 has a sign that is clearly identifiable (v. 15, 27, 30). However, concerning the Second Coming (v. 36 ff) there will be no signs, and the Son of Man will come when no one expects it (vs. 42, 44, 50).

Jesus uses two main demonstrative pronouns that clearly show a transition from one time period to another. In v. 29 he speaks of those days” and “these things” in vs. 33, 34. He also says that “this generation” will not pass away until “these things” take place (referring to everything mentioned up to this point. When one considers Matthew’s use of the word for “generation” it is clear he means people alive at the time of Jesus (which would mean the fall of the temple would occur before this generation passed – cf. Mt. 1:17; 10:23; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 45; 23:36.

Then in verse 36 Jesus says “but of that day… ” thereby changing the pronoun from these things to that. This clearly demonstrates a transition. Jesus has transitioned from one topic to another. He transitions from the disciples first question in verse 3 to the next.

Here's a little quick chart:

1. Key Text and The Context

a. "This generation shall not pass" v34 the "time-text" of the chapter

b. "but of that day and hour" v36 the "transition-text" of the chapter

c. The context: Culmination of prophecies and warnings

d. The disciples questions: 24:1-3

2. Signs of the Destruction of Jerusalem: 24:4-35

a. General Signs: 24:4-14

b. Specific Signs: 24:15-28

c. Apocalyptic Language: 24:29-33/ Similar language also used concerning:

i. The destruction of Babylon (Isaiah 13:10)

ii. The destruction of Edom (Isaiah 34:4-5)

iii. The destruction of Egypt (Ezekiel 32:7-8)

3. The End of the World: 24:36 through 25:46

a. Contrast between this (Mat.24:36-25:46) and the former section of Matthew 24 (Mat.24:4-35)

b. Jesus teaches the suddenness of the second coming (like a thief/ no signs, warnings, announcements).


Please don't take this as an insult, but its no wonder you both confuse Matthew 24:29-33 pictorial type language when you can't get Revelation right since its chalk full of that type of talk.
 
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