Are True Apostles Still in Existence Today

[Greg Merrill]

My apologies for the confusion. No. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus selected the twelve for a special apostolic ministry: laying the foundation of his Church. Were others called apostles? Yes, but only in the general sense of the word.

A modern example from a Southern Baptist perspective: when we have a convention every church is allowed to send messengers (apostles) which represent their local church. While they act with the authority of their local church, they are not considered as part of the apostolic ministry.

Again, sorry for the confusion.

OK. I think we are in agreement there are no Apostles, in the true New Testament sense, for today. Thanks for your input.

 

[Albion]

Well, what do you make of the apparent necessity the apostles felt to replace Judas?

It was important to them to have 12 since they represented, in some way, the 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[Root of Jesse]

OK. I think we are in agreement there are no Apostles, in the true New Testament sense, for today. Thanks for your input.

Catholics believe differently. The bishops are the successors of the apostles and fulfil their same purpose.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It was important to them to have 12 since they represented, in some way, the 12 tribes of Israel.

And then there were more...Paul and Barnabas, Timothy, Titus, and others?

 

[Greg Merrill]

Catholics believe differently. The bishops are the successors of the apostles and fulfil their same purpose.

Yes, I realize that Catholics believe differently on the existence of Apostles today. Catholics and I believe differently on A LOT of things. Wishing you well.

 

[Albion]

BUT, Roman Catholics do not claim that today's bishops are Apostles in the same sense as the 12 were.

Rather, they are bishops who, in theory, receive their authority to lead from having it handed down through a line that goes back to the Twelve Apostles.

 

[least]

Well, what do you make of the apparent necessity the apostles felt to replace Judas?

As I mentioned in my original post, I am not sure how Matthias plays out. I lean torwards the other Apostles knowing what they were doing, so Matthias seems legit. I know many disagree and believe the other Apostles erred and that Paul was the true replacement. That may be. But Paul presents himself as an apostle abnormally born. He was also uniquely titled the Apostle to the Gentiles.

I don't claim to have it all figured out, but the Bible does teach that Jesus specifically called twelve men to be Apostles AND he called Paul to be an Apostle. These men were eyewitness of the resurrection of Christ and were empowered by the Spirit to work miracles to substantiate their ministries. Do miracles occur today? Yes, but not of that magnitude.

 

[ViaCrucis]

As I mentioned in my original post, I am not sure how Matthias plays out. I lean torwards the other Apostles knowing what they were doing, so Matthias seems legit. I know many disagree and believe the other Apostles erred and that Paul was the true replacement. That may be. But Paul presents himself as an apostle abnormally born. He was also uniquely titled the Apostle to the Gentiles.

I don't claim to have it all figured out, but the Bible does teach that Jesus specifically called twelve men to be Apostles AND he called Paul to be an Apostle. These men were eyewitness of the resurrection of Christ and were empowered by the Spirit to work miracles to substantiate their ministries. Do miracles occur today? Yes, but not of that magnitude.

There's nothing in Scripture to suggest that Paul was the "true replacement", Paul is never counted among the Twelve in the New Testament. Matthias, however, is.

Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot.
Paul replaced no one, but was called as an apostle "out of due time" and he considered himself "least of the apostles".

To suggest otherwise is simply to speak contrary to Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Waggles]

My favorite story of his was when he brought a dead person back to life.

More than once, several times at least.
But these wonderful miracles are still available and happening in Pentecostal churches today,
thanks to the apostleship of Smith Wigglesworth who brought back divine healings and these signs
shall follow those who believe to a new generation in the 20th century onwards.

Read the following testimony from Gabriela Wanori of Papua New Guinea about how Jesus raised her
baby back to life from death.

http://miracles.areonthe.net/TESTIM...ack to life - Gabriel Wanori, Vanimo, PNG.pdf

 

[Waggles]

@ByTheSpirit

Here is another testimony to a drowned child, this time in Zambia, Africa, raised up by the
power of faith in Jesus and the gospel - these signs shall follow them that believe ...
Jordan Fumbelo is the boy's name.

http://miracles.areonthe.net/TESTIM...om dead - Jordan Fumbelo, Zambezi, Zambia.pdf

 

[Greg Merrill]

@ByTheSpirit

Here is another testimony to a drowned child, this time in Zambia, Africa, raised up by the
power of faith in Jesus and the gospel - these signs shall follow them that believe ...
Jordan Fumbelo is the boy's name.

http://miracles.areonthe.net/TESTIMONY Collection/Pacific Islands & Africa -Testimonies & Articles/Drowned, raised from dead - Jordan Fumbelo, Zambezi, Zambia.pdf

Someone once noted "Notice how so many of these miracles happen so far away, where they are not verifiable. I would like to think these are miracles of God in the last days, but then they sometimes sound like sightings of bigfoot, Nessie, and Elvis.
I would like to think that all of those were not faked either. Just saying.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Someone once noted "Notice how so many of these miracles happen so far away, where they are not verifiable. I would like to think these are miracles of God in the last days, but then they sometimes sound like sightings of bigfoot, Nessie, and Elvis.
I would like to think that all of those were not faked either. Just saying.

We should also be reminded, "It is a faithless and wicked generation that seeks after a sign". We should not seek signs and wonders, we should seek God's kingdom in faithfulness to Jesus Christ our Lord; proclaiming the good news of what God has done for the world, loving and serving our neighbor.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[W2L]

We should also be reminded, "It is a faithless and wicked generation that seeks after a sign". We should not seek signs and wonders, we should seek God's kingdom in faithfulness to Jesus Christ our Lord; proclaiming the good news of what God has done for the world, loving and serving our neighbor.

-CryptoLutheran

Amen to that.

 

[least]

@ByTheSpirit

Here is another testimony to a drowned child, this time in Zambia, Africa, raised up by the
power of faith in Jesus and the gospel - these signs shall follow them that believe ...
Jordan Fumbelo is the boy's name.

http://miracles.areonthe.net/TESTIMONY Collection/Pacific Islands & Africa -Testimonies & Articles/Drowned, raised from dead - Jordan Fumbelo, Zambezi, Zambia.pdf

What do these have to do with the question of Apostles?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

We should also be reminded, "It is a faithless and wicked generation that seeks after a sign". We should not seek signs and wonders, we should seek God's kingdom in faithfulness to Jesus Christ our Lord; proclaiming the good news of what God has done for the world, loving and serving our neighbor.

-CryptoLutheran

So how in the world are we to answer the OP if the mention of signs gets shot down by those who refuse to believe in them? The Pharisees did as much too...

 

[ByTheSpirit]

What do these have to do with the question of Apostles?

One of the main telling points of an Apostle is the working of miracles . That is what it has to do with it

 

[ViaCrucis]

So how in the world are we to answer the OP if the mention of signs gets shot down by those who refuse to believe in them? The Pharisees did as much too...

The Pharisees accused Jesus of using diabolical power.

I'm not accusing anyone of using diabolical power; but there's no reason that a Christian ought to be expected to believe every claim of the miraculous; in particular when those claims of the miraculous are being used to justify positions which go against the Christian norm. There is no evidence that apostles were continually being called after the time of the early apostles, and the Church has always understood that apostolic authority and ministry has been retained, not in new apostles, but in the bishops and presbyters--pastors--called and ordained by the apostles to the shepherding and service of the churches. The apostolate served as the means for the spreading of the Gospel in the early ancient world and the establishment of the Church across the known world; we do not find mention of living apostles by the time we get to the sub-apostolic era; even the oldest among the fathers, those who sat at the feet of the apostles and given much honor for that fact, are not called apostle themselves, consider this statement from Irenaeus in the late 2nd century:

"But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,-a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics" - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 3, Ch. 3:4

Polycarp is first mentioned by Ignatius, in about 105 AD in both his letter to the Church in Smyrna as well as a personal letter to Polycarp; Ignatius himself being advanced in age and Polycarp relatively young at the time. Both men were taught as pupils under the apostles, and as such they present us with a vital link between the time of the apostles and the time after the apostles; and from them we see the rather clear establishment that the Church had been entrusted to the care of bishops and presbyters by the apostles themselves.

The chief claim of the "new apostles" usually boils down to a restorationist narrative, that we are living in "the end times" and so a "new outpouring of the Spirit" has come and God is calling up new apostles and prophets for the Church. That entire narrative has no basis in Christian teaching or Holy Scripture, and exists merely to facilitate those who would wish to be called apostles and prophets.

It ultimately boils down to something simple for me: Do I put my faith in modern so-called apostles and prophets, or do I put my faith in the historic witness of the Christian Church and in her Scriptures? The only sane answer I could possibly give to that is choosing the latter.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

One of the main telling points of an Apostle is the working of miracles .

No, the main telling point of the apostles were that they had been called to preach the Gospel among the nations and build up Christ's Church. The working of miracles were entirely peripheral and served only that primary purpose.

Where do you get this notion that the miraculous is somehow a primary characteristic of apostleship? The Church has always recognized the miraculous, it doesn't take an apostle, God can work however God desires to work. If God wanted to use a donkey to raise the dead, He is more than capable of doing so.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[least]

One of the main telling points of an Apostle is the working of miracles . That is what it has to do with it

I understand that, but neither of these cases involved an apostle. Just mothers who prayed for their children. Thats's why I asked what did apostles have to do with these stories. Did I miss something?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I understand that, but neither of these cases involved an apostle. Just mothers who prayed for their children. Thats's why I asked what did apostles have to do with these stories. Did I miss something?

What else is a miracle then if not someone calling down God's power on someone else? Doesn't matter if it's a mother or whatever.

I am not going to say those stories were "Apostles" in action, only that such miracles are signs of an Apostle . Have a blessed day